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Old 06-02-2010, 02:32 AM   #26
Garrek11
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This is a dumb post! If you have the money to buy really nice sticky tires most likely you will put the money into brakes also (for better then stock look) because who puts nice rims and nice tires on a car with stock brakes? And comparing a stock wrx to a 800whp wrx is dumb of corse the guy/girl with the stock wrx wont upgrade there brakes ITS ALL STOCK they would have no reason too. now the 800whp car how much money do you think he spent to get there maybe around 30k-40k? well of corse he/she will upgrade the brakes he has the dam money.
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Old 06-02-2010, 02:39 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Garrek11 View Post
This is a dumb post!
I wish I realized you were trying to warn us about what succeeded this sentence, not preceded it or I could have avoided wasting precious seconds.
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:14 AM   #28
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Just like to add also that bigger brakes = more rotating mass. Which COULD = longer stopping distance depending on other factors.

Also, just like to add that a good example is bigger isn't always better is Formula One. The surface area of the rotors is actually really tiny, and the calipers aren't overly huge either, actually not much bigger than a Subaru 4 pot front. Technical regulations limit wheel diameter to 15". Also the wheel bearings on them are really large, hence the small clamping area. I should find a picture I took of the 2008 Mclaren front wheel+brakes. The rotor surface is also slotted, but not in a conventional means. The slots move vertically from the centre of the rotor outwards, and the rotor looks like it is comprised of blocks aranged in a circle.

Last edited by i_c_the_light; 06-02-2010 at 05:03 AM.
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Old 06-02-2010, 04:16 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Garrek11 View Post
This is a dumb post! If you have the money to buy really nice sticky tires most likely you will put the money into brakes also (for better then stock look) because who puts nice rims and nice tires on a car with stock brakes? And comparing a stock wrx to a 800whp wrx is dumb of corse the guy/girl with the stock wrx wont upgrade there brakes ITS ALL STOCK they would have no reason too. now the 800whp car how much money do you think he spent to get there maybe around 30k-40k? well of corse he/she will upgrade the brakes he has the dam money.
You are right, what you have posted is dumb.
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:26 AM   #30
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I agree on most of the part of the original post.

however, You didn't consider engine braking into the account. If the car is outputing higher torque, engine break will drag the car a lot more (I am saying right after shooting the flame doing 140mph on the highway in 5th gear and downshift while braking ). engine break will cause the more load on brake and tires if you have higher torque. Well, if you popp the gear to neutral then break,then it doesnt matter.

So I would say if your car is creating a lot more power, then better brake actually helps ( of course besides the good tire) in many cases.
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:29 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by i_c_the_light View Post
Also, just like to add that a good example is bigger isn't always better is Formula One.
A formula 1 car weighs 1367lbs including the driver, has gobs of high speed air available for cooling and is made from exotic materials.

It's not exactly comparable.
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:32 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by CT26SupraTurbo View Post
I agree on most of the part of the original post.

however, You didn't consider engine braking into the account. If the car is outputing higher torque, engine break will drag the car a lot more (I am saying right after shooting the flame doing 140mph on the highway in 5th gear and downshift while braking ). engine break will cause the more load on brake and tires if you have higher torque. Well, if you popp the gear to neutral then break,then it doesnt matter.

So I would say if your car is creating a lot more power, then better brake actually helps ( of course besides the good tire) in many cases.
Engine BRAKING has nothing to do with torque, and your wheel brakes have nothing to do with engine braking. At all. Ever.

Engine braking is also not used in any sort of performance driving, not by anyone who knows what they're doing anyway.
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:10 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Garrek11 View Post
This is a dumb post! If you have the money to buy really nice sticky tires most likely you will put the money into brakes also (for better then stock look) because who puts nice rims and nice tires on a car with stock brakes? And comparing a stock wrx to a 800whp wrx is dumb of corse the guy/girl with the stock wrx wont upgrade there brakes ITS ALL STOCK they would have no reason too. now the 800whp car how much money do you think he spent to get there maybe around 30k-40k? well of corse he/she will upgrade the brakes he has the dam money.
good lord

congrats...you just put yourself into the category that is "i need brakes because they are pleasing to the eye".

if you show your car and have gobs of money...super...get sweet upgraded brakes. they do look awesome...nothing against that at all.

the post was to point out that if you DON'T feverishly show your car...you just drive it...upgraded brakes are unnecessary.

money has nothing to do with it.


wonderful post Davenow
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Old 06-02-2010, 07:14 AM   #34
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Dave, you hang around with me too much. Somehow my words were absorbed into yoar head.


I will comment on the "if you spend money on wheels and tires, you will spend money on brakes". I have 4 sets of wheels/tires for my LGT. I don't do the gazillion track days that I used to, so have nothing upgraded in the braking system besides using Hawk HPS rear pads. Since my racecar has been sold, I do have to drive differently on the track with my car, but that's part of track driving. When the fluid starts to boil, I "NASCAR" brake. Early brake, lighter application so heat has extra time to dissipate during the braking event. In stock classes, caliper changes and rotor size increases are prohibited. An appropriate track pad can get you through a track day along with a good sense of how the brakes are doing while out there driving. Yes, I do use $3/L fluid on the street and $40/L fluid on the track. Back in the olden days (defined as before I had a dedicated track car), I used brake ducts temporarily attached during practices. I'd cut the zip ties holding them in place before the time trial to be legal for competition.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:37 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by kevosnowsti View Post
While I completely agree with everything your saying, and tires/pads have alot to do with stopping distance, if you track your car and have significantly more horsepower than stock, wouldn't it make sense to have better performing brakes since you will be reaching higher speeds?
If you track it. 90% of people on nasioc dont and wont. Heck man if you drive a stock RS and track it, you should upgrade the brakes in one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Unabomber View Post
Unabomber says I agree with this post 1000% and I think it's the greatest post of 2010 so far. Mind you, I learned nothing I didn't already know, but it's a terrific idea to put the "common knowledge" into writing for those that don't know. I'm also a fan of ghetto brake fluid and think that anyone that has stainless steel brake lines is a moron.


<-----has stainless steel lines, but they were a gift and I noticed zero improvement one way or the other.
I disagree on the lines, but I do know where you are coming from. I have heard a lot of people say they didnt notice anything from lines. IMO people expect too much from lines generally. But every car I have done them on, I have noticed a distinct difference in pedal feel. Not when I first pull out of the garage, but a little while later when I am not thinking about it, Ill come up to a stop sign and all the sudden I am like "hey, my pedal feels more solid" That in itself, to me is proof that the difference is small. But add a few small differences up and you get a large difference

Quote:
Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S View Post
With lines you have the pedal feel like you said, but also extra protection from damage. I fell victim to a stock line coming loose while on the track, rubbing on the rim and slicing open......... the line popped in a 130+ brake zone.........luckily it only caused immediate failure for one of the front cailpers and not both. The steel lines would have held up better to this mishap and I would have noticed the problem at the end of the session rather then on track heh.

Apart from that spot on

There is a flip side to that mindset.

A lot of track guys swear against stainless lines because you cant see a line that is about to fail. It may be corroded or cracking internally and you wont know about it till the inner line pops, and on the track( well, anywhere), that can have pretty serious consequences. As for the line rubbing, Not to break your balls but I would think that a line in a situation where it could get caught up or rub like that would have been caught by you when you looked your car over before getting it out on the track
*note* I am aware that it may have been fine before and something happened on the track to move it over somehow.

I also know a lot of track guys that swear by stainless lines, but also swear by replacing them every year, for the exact reason that you cant see what condition the inner line is in. And for the short money that a set of lines costs, its worth the piece of mind.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:44 AM   #36
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The OP is the one that said rally racing. He makes it seem these guys are flying through the woods at 120mph with stock wrx brakes
.

That isnt even remotely close to what I said or made it seem like. Well ok I cant say what I made it seem like, since that is a matter of peception. But it definitely wasnt what I was trying to make it sound like.

I am saying that they dont use 3928473274piston calipers, or even Brembos, and they are using a stock diameter rotor. Its also not a slotted, drilled or dimpled rotor. The calipers, are bone stock. The rotors, I dont know what brand they use, most likely OEM, as like I said, they are stock size, and not drilled or anything like that.

I would have to look the group-N rules again but I am fairly certain that the only thing they can change are the pads and fluid, and they remove the brake booster. So yes, they are flying through the woods on essentially stock brakes.


But if you think Group-N cars are doing 120mph through the woods, you already dont know enough about rally to be arguing this point. WRC cars rarely see 120mph through the woods.

AS A MATTER OF FACT
http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/e/GPN/Te..._4_bk_list.pdf

There ya go, that is what is on the Group-N STI rally car, in race form, this is what is on the car as they are flying through the woods. Part numbers and everything. It says MY05, but its the same as what is there now.

Here, want to buy a full factory prepped Group-N car? Its what Pastrana drives in rally america
http://www.subaru-sti.co.jp/e/GPN/GpNcars/index.html

Look in through those wheels and tell me what you see.


Flatirons would know more specifics on the Group-N cars. But I assure you that the brakes are closer to stock than you are thinking.

All the above goes out the window on their tarmac setup, which uses the brembos. I did see an STI tarmac car running I think it was AP calipers once though.

Last edited by Davenow; 06-02-2010 at 09:59 AM.
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Old 06-02-2010, 09:59 AM   #37
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+1 for dave

i have new pads, lines, and rotors and honestly i can't even notice a change in braking distance or stopping power.
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Old 06-02-2010, 10:04 AM   #38
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+1 for dave

i have new pads, lines, and rotors and honestly i can't even notice a change in braking distance or stopping power.
You should notice a difference in how the brakes respond when you first get on the brakes though, like pedal feel or how much braking you get per bit of pedal travel.

If not, I am betting you never bedded them in properly. Bring me the car, Ill bed them in out towards Cedar park on parmer. When the car pretty much doesnt stop anymore and smoke is coming from your wheels, then Ill call them bedded

IIRC we did your brakes in my garage didnt we? I seem to remember doing them and not having time for us to take it out and bed them in.
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Old 06-02-2010, 10:57 AM   #39
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So I did the right thing in just replacing the rear caliper's with OEM instead of the the 2 pot's. I think my next tire will be a bit better to.
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:07 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
There is a flip side to that mindset.

A lot of track guys swear against stainless lines because you cant see a line that is about to fail. It may be corroded or cracking internally and you wont know about it till the inner line pops, and on the track( well, anywhere), that can have pretty serious consequences. As for the line rubbing, Not to break your balls but I would think that a line in a situation where it could get caught up or rub like that would have been caught by you when you looked your car over before getting it out on the track
*note* I am aware that it may have been fine before and something happened on the track to move it over somehow.

I also know a lot of track guys that swear by stainless lines, but also swear by replacing them every year, for the exact reason that you cant see what condition the inner line is in. And for the short money that a set of lines costs, its worth the piece of mind.
True there is that flipside....... but I can't recall the last time I saw a pro team NOT using SS lines. But these are replaced constantly of course, like mine. And I think it was something on the track (bumpy) that caused the line to come loose as I was really driving the **** out of it that day. I got on the brakes and the whole car pitched sideways, threw in some opposite lock and brought it back without a wreck. Only damage to the car was the need for fluid and a new line....... did cost me track time though

But yeah for me, if you track the car you should be running SS lines and just replace them yearly or sooner depending on how much you track. Sure you can't see if they are about to fail...... but all it takes is a split second for the standard line to turn from perfect to useless...... and in this case the SS line would have held up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prometheum View Post
its a bit of an extreme analogy but you're still failing to see the correlation between tires and brake fade? RE92's are not gonna put as much stress on your brakes as Yokohoma Advans
No I see the correlation and understand it perfectly. My point is that we have ABS so the odds of you "locking up" stock tires are low, I myself never had lockup problems on stock brakes with stock tires. Will stickier tires add more stress? Sure, but with either tire you will see brake fade at the track on stock brakes. With stock tires it might take 7 laps to get bad fade while sticky tires only get you 5. Either way the brake system needs to be addressed in this scenario.

Think of it this way. We are at the Nurburgring with two WRX's. I'm running the stock tires but with a nice fancy set of Brembos/stoptech with track pads and rotors. You are running the Yokohama Advans and the stock brake system. Everything else on the car is identical, including driver weight etc. The goal is to do 15 laps.

Who will win? You have the stickier tire and can post faster lap times due to the grip and braking performance, and my brakes are overkill for my tires. But I would guess after lap 3-4 your brake fade will be so bad that you will be forced to slow down to a snails pace. Meanwhile my brakes keep stopping over and over and while not as fast in the beginning, I've now beaten you due to consistency
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Old 06-02-2010, 11:56 AM   #41
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Flatirons would know more specifics on the Group-N cars. But I assure you that the brakes are closer to stock than you are thinking.
Group-N cars are basically limited to using any OEM parts from the manufactures world wide production in the same year as the car that they are running. Keep in mind that Rally tires are only available up to 15" so the brakes must fit under a 15" wheel for rally application. So the short story is that the Group-N Subaru Rally Cars use the Subaru 4-Pot/2-Pot calipers.

Also, worth considering is that the idea in a stage rally is to have the average stage speed at around 70 mph or so. This is why the cars run restrictors, etc. And if in testing the cars are able to get up over 100 mph for a long period of time (long straight), it is not unusual for the event organizers to put in chicanes in the straights to drop the average speed for a stage.

Now that being said, there are a number of other differences going on with the Rally car example. A couple of the big ones being no ABS, and braking on a lose surface (dirt, gravel, etc.), which make it a less than ideal comparison to a stock Subaru that is driven on the street.

A better comparison would be of a stock 02 - 05 WRX to an 06 - 07 stock WRX. They both use the exact same front rotor (the rear of the 06 - 07 is slightly larger in diameter, and is vented where the 02 - 05 is solid). So the primary difference is the clamping force from the 4-Pot/2-Pot calipers and the slightly larger diameter rear rotor.

When you are trying to improve your cars braking, there are a couple different ways to go about that. One is to increase the clamping force of the caliper. One is to increase the diameter of the rotor to give the caliper a better mechanical advantage. And the other biggie is to put in pads that have a higher coefficient of friction.

A couple of more subtile options are to increase the cooling to the calipers/brakes to help them handle an increased heat load. And another would be to increase the braking of the rear brakes independant of the fronts to shift the brake bias more to the rear so that you have more even braking front to rear (with a larger diameter rotor for instance as in the H6 brake up-grade, or by putting on the Subaru 2-Por rear brakes for instance. Another option would be to put a more agressive pad, within reason, in the rear compared to the front). That is of course assuming that the OEM system is too heavily biased to the front, which most would agree the WRX was at least from 2002 - 2005.
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Old 06-02-2010, 12:10 PM   #42
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I definitely agree that the OEM system on the 02-05 is far too heavily front biased.

I think anyone who has done the "H6" upgrade in the back on one of those cars will agree. The car just feels so much more stable under braking, and more squats when braking instead of nose diving.
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Old 06-02-2010, 12:38 PM   #43
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Opened my eyes a bit! The more you know, right? Davenow, you're getting up there with Uncle Scotty. Thanks for the informative post. Sticky, anyone?
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Old 06-02-2010, 12:45 PM   #44
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Excellent thread.

The only thing I'd add is that even though the stock braking system is plenty strong enough to lock up the brakes and stop the car effectively at any sort of street-legal speeds, it sure feels mushy, at least on my 03 WRX. It was the first negative thing I noticed about the car when I picked it up new. In fact, it was so bad, I brought it back to the dealer to have them bleed the brakes, because I thought there must have been air in the system from the factory. 125,000 miles later, with numerous fluid, pad, and rotor changes, and an H6 rear upgrade and stainless lines, it still feels like mush. I'm about ready to try a master cylinder brace to see if that helps the feel any.

I know that the brakes will definitely stop the car in a hurry if I absolutely mash the pedal, especially with sticky 225/45-17 tires on it, but the first half of the pedal travel really shouldn't feel like stepping on a marshmallow and a little bit of initial bite would be nice.
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:33 PM   #45
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"If you go from stock, to 400whp, upgrading the brakes, IS NOT NEEDED AND YOU WILL BE NO SAFER THAN YOU WOULD BE ON STOCK BRAKES."

This comment bothers me and quite frankly is dangerous IMO. The type of person who upgrades their car to 400whp likely is not staying in the garage polishing it. While I agree the most measurable upgrade would be tires, there are several factors that are being left out. Say this person with a 400whp car enjoys a nice twisty mountain road. His old 200whp WRX would get up to 70 MPH, he would brake, rinse, repeat. Now insert the 400whp car. Instead of 70 MPH, suddenly he is up to 100 MPH, he would brake, repeat and insert fade. If you were to have your $3 bottle of Autozone fluid in there, you would have a long time to wave goodbye as you roll down the mountain. The problem with the argument is that you are looking at braking as an isolated incident. Many times, yes that is true. However, a higher horsepower equal higher attainable speeds which puts a higher strain on the braking system. The fact that this is stickied on the newbie thread made me want to make that point. DISCLAIMER:driving your car at speeds that are dangerous and above speed limits are dangerous. If your car is built to just putt-putt around town (re:legal) then those statements of the OP are true.
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Old 06-02-2010, 01:42 PM   #46
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Opened my eyes a bit! The more you know, right? Davenow, you're getting up there with Uncle Scotty. Thanks for the informative post. Sticky, anyone?
Scotty knows his stuff for sure. And I am stoked that people recognize that instead of just writing him off for his delivery of info (d00000000d)
Scotty and I go way back

I would say I know more though. Simply through the sheer volume of my experience. I am 36 and have had a wrench in my hand since I was old enough to know what to do with one. I did it for a living, I do it as a hobby, I eat sleep live and breath this stuff.
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Old 06-02-2010, 03:46 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
Heck man if you drive a stock RS and track it, you should upgrade the brakes in one way or another.
Agreed, but not nearly as necessary as upgrading the brakes for a 500whp car reaching MUCH higher speeds on the track.
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Old 06-02-2010, 05:46 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Splinter View Post
A formula 1 car weighs 1367lbs including the driver, has gobs of high speed air available for cooling and is made from exotic materials.

It's not exactly comparable.
True, having rotors made of carbon does change the game a bit, but when you see how much grip the tyres alone give and how easy they can flatspot them, especially with the loads they are subjected to...then it does show that bigger isn't always better.
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:24 PM   #49
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good post.

but... i thought SS lines were so you had a firm brake petal.

i thought as you heat brake fluid, it expands, which then expands your rubber lines, and gives you the mushy feeling? upgrade to SS and it prevents it.

i remember having a front clip of a 180, and it had zip ties wrapped all around the front brake lines. it was probably 20-30 or so, and it completely covered the brake line. i assumed it was for just that reason.
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Old 06-02-2010, 06:39 PM   #50
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True, having rotors made of carbon does change the game a bit, but when you see how much grip the tyres alone give and how easy they can flatspot them, especially with the loads they are subjected to...then it does show that bigger isn't always better.
That on top of the momentous amount of downforce being generated.
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