Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday August 22, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Engine Management & Tuning

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-03-2010, 07:51 AM   #251
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

as others have said, in a truly parallel arrangement (like this one) either path can contribute a pressure signal to the WGA. when the WGA sees signal, boost is limited.

IF you have arranged your 3 port solenoid such that the pressure signal is VENTED from the WGA when the solenoid is off, AND the solenoid is off (for whatever reason) while the MBC is passing, then the pressure signal contributed from the MBC will be reduced. that may very well prevent the MBC from properly clamping boost.

i do not suggest such an arrangement.

in that case either insure that 1) the solenoid remains energized whenever the MBC will be passing, or 2) change your connection topology to the 3 port so that the WGA is not depressurized while the solenoid is not electrically active.

1 is done with tuning, 2 may be done by simply capping off a port.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
ride5000 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2010, 04:05 PM   #252
02RexWI
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 165141
Join Date: Nov 2007
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: WI
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRF582 View Post
Ken (the stupid one, not Gilbert), what did I tell you earlier? Google 'path of least resistance'. And let me repeat myself. PLEASE stop posting so damn confidently in technical threads.
^Please do this... you're just causing confusion among people who are still learning.
02RexWI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2010, 09:21 PM   #253
Murphdog
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 75414
Join Date: Nov 2004
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Rock Springs,Wyoming
Vehicle:
2004 STi
Its the Blue one

Default

So can anyone tell me if I would be able to switch my Grimmspeed EBC setup (post 246) to a hybrid setup (post 243) without my tune having to be adjusted.

Update: I did as stated above and car works perfect. No tuning needed and I can now adjust my boost for alttitude and I now have no overboost problems at higher speeds. Thanks for all the help guys.

Last edited by Murphdog; 03-22-2010 at 02:19 PM.
Murphdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2010, 09:51 AM   #254
dexterous
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23553
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Slippery Rock, PA
Vehicle:
2005 STI - Insanity!
2014 WRX - Daily

Default

Guys,

I am totally new to the hybrid mbc/ebc concept but I am pretty interested. I run a Dom3 XTR with a TiAL 44mm EWG, AVC-R, Hydra and a meth kit (hydramist). Because I run meth I must retain the AVC-R as its integrated into the meth kit for failsafe reasons. There is a relay that kills power to the AVC-R's 3 port solenoid when the meth kit is off or a failure (or some other even that the Hydra did not like) has occurred.

My target boost with the meth on is 26PSI and with the meth off 22PSI. I also do a few track days which I ALWAYS run at waste-gate pressure (1.3bar / 18.85PSI). Ideally I would like to set the MBC at 26PSI and use the AVC-R to create my boost curve on the high boost map. I would also like to be able to limit the car at 22PSI on the low boost map (totally different map in the AVC-R) without adjusting the MBC.

AM I correct in thinking that if I were to setup the hybrid setup that I could retain all the functionality that I currently have while building in a hard limit of 26PSI in the MBC?

I found this diagram online which depicts my exact setup except that I dont have any of the lines in blue or the MBC. If I were to add the MBC exactly as as show in this diagram, will it work correctly? All the other diagrams that I have seen show only a single port connected on the EWG and slightly different plumbing. Thanks!

[pict removed since its wrong]

Last edited by dexterous; 04-29-2010 at 10:34 PM.
dexterous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2010, 06:37 PM   #255
MRF582
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 48219
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
. Always drive
the race line .

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dexterous View Post
AM I correct in thinking that if I were to setup the hybrid setup that I could retain all the functionality that I currently have while building in a hard limit of 26PSI in the MBC?
No. 100% DC at the electronic solenoid results in unrestricted pressure going to the top port. The only thing regulating boost at that point will be the backpressure in the exhaust manifold. Massive overboost. The MBC is doing nothing since it is causing more restriction than the electronic solenoid.

In short, the method you have will let you a minimum boost level . This is exactly opposite from what you want.
MRF582 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2010, 11:34 PM   #256
dexterous
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23553
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Slippery Rock, PA
Vehicle:
2005 STI - Insanity!
2014 WRX - Daily

Default

Ok, thanks. Any chance you have access to a proper diagram?
dexterous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2010, 11:59 PM   #257
NSFW
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 140444
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Near Seattle, WA
Vehicle:
05 Stage Free LGT
ATP 3076, 6MT, AVO FMIC

Default

Tee the MBC into the line that goes to the side port, instead of the line that goes to the top port. Then, when the MBC sees more than the boost pressure it's set for, it sends that boost to the side port, which will open the wastegate.

I don't think that the line from port 3 to the inlet is really necessary - capping both ends should be sufficient. But get a second opinion, I don't have Grimmspeed/MAC BCS so there could be some quirk here that I'm not aware of.
NSFW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-2010, 12:44 AM   #258
MRF582
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 48219
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
. Always drive
the race line .

Default

You have a 1.3 bar spring in the wastegate. Ditch the top port entirely. Unless you plan on running more than ~2.6 bar of boost.
MRF582 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2010, 10:31 PM   #259
dexterous
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 23553
Join Date: Aug 2002
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Slippery Rock, PA
Vehicle:
2005 STI - Insanity!
2014 WRX - Daily

Default

Shek, like this?

dexterous is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2010, 05:42 PM   #260
LIQUIDSK8S
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 22605
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Vehicle:
2002 JDM STI/WRX
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dexterous View Post
Shek, like this?

I need to read through the rest of this thread....... but looking at that diagram I can't help but think "what's the point of the MBC here?" IE if it's closed but the EBC is allowing air by then the air will simply flow through the EBC and to the wastegate.
LIQUIDSK8S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2010, 07:38 PM   #261
bucket7788
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 124263
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Now with DB Super 16g and WI!
Vehicle:
2004 WRX Wagon
RomRaider + UTEC Tuned

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S View Post
I need to read through the rest of this thread....... but looking at that diagram I can't help but think "what's the point of the MBC here?" IE if it's closed but the EBC is allowing air by then the air will simply flow through the EBC and to the wastegate.
That is the intent. For everything but full throttle, the EBC controlls boost. For WOT, the EBC shunts everything to the MBC, so it controls boost then. It works like a champ. My ECU controls boost at everything but WOT, then the MBC takes over and gives spike free control.
bucket7788 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2010, 08:33 PM   #262
LIQUIDSK8S
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 22605
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Boca Raton, FL
Vehicle:
2002 JDM STI/WRX
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucket7788 View Post
That is the intent. For everything but full throttle, the EBC controlls boost. For WOT, the EBC shunts everything to the MBC, so it controls boost then. It works like a champ. My ECU controls boost at everything but WOT, then the MBC takes over and gives spike free control.
Ok I got it (I think). So you tell the ECU "hey keep the EBC shut" at WOT so that it goes to the MBC. But at non WOT the EBC is allowed to control it..... this is splendid .
LIQUIDSK8S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2010, 07:29 AM   #263
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

exactly.
ride5000 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 11:51 AM   #264
medamullet
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 99442
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Man of Mystery
Vehicle:
2006 SGM STI
I'm on CORN YO!

Default

post because I lost this thread....
medamullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 12:09 PM   #265
MRF582
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 48219
Join Date: Nov 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Vehicle:
. Always drive
the race line .

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dexterous View Post
Sorry for the delayed reponse. NASIOC didn't inform me the thread was updated for some reason.

But, yes.
MRF582 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-19-2010, 06:05 PM   #266
medamullet
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 99442
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Man of Mystery
Vehicle:
2006 SGM STI
I'm on CORN YO!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MRF582 View Post
Sorry for the delayed reponse. NASIOC didn't inform me the thread was updated for some reason.

But, yes.
The ports in teh picture are correct but not oriented corectly




medamullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2010, 11:13 AM   #267
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by medamullet View Post
post because I lost this thread....
you know it's a sticky, right?
ride5000 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2010, 11:22 AM   #268
wasp642
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 169195
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NE Ohio
Vehicle:
2002 WRX lots of
boost and meth

Default

Just finished installing this setup with my 18G/EWG/prodrive/hallman evo rx, and its so nice having adjustability via a knob. Took me 5 minutes to tune via ecuflash/romraider modifying the TD tables and WGDC, and a very fun road test with NO KNOCK at 21 psi :P . Very solid boost response, no spikes at all, and my vent is capped not routed to intake. Very nice idea, thanks ride for the great setup. hallman evo rx on ebay is only $139 BTW.
wasp642 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2010, 05:45 PM   #269
wasp642
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 169195
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NE Ohio
Vehicle:
2002 WRX lots of
boost and meth

Default

i retract my previous statement, i'm getting ONLY MBC response and no EBC. I'm using the prodrive EBC and when the WGDC is zero, im still getting boost via the MBC. The prodrive is free flowing at rest and everything is hooked up right like in the pics. Does this work for EWGs? So much for path of least resistance. The pressure would rather go through the MBC than an open EBC?

If i set the WGDC to zero, and turn the MBC up, it still boosts to what the MBC is set to. Adjust the MBC all the way down and it gets down to ~16 psi which also isn't right, i have around 14psi WG pressure. What is going on?
wasp642 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2010, 07:31 AM   #270
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

remember either system should work "normally" in and of itself.

the solenoid must be connected so that pressure goes from compressor to wastegate "open" side while the coil is unenergized. it doesn't sound like this is the case, as you would not be able to go above wastegate spring pressure if WGDC is 0--and you are.

can you sketch out a topology diagram? in particular, the NO and NC ports on the solenoid, and the connections to the WGA ports.
ride5000 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-04-2010, 11:51 PM   #271
wasp642
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 169195
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NE Ohio
Vehicle:
2002 WRX lots of
boost and meth

Default

I found the problem, i plugged the liittle bleed hole in the WG barb on the MBC and it worked perfectly like it should, WG pressure and all the good stuff....

BUT...........

Now a different problem.... i found out that if you block the bleed hole it works like it should b/c that hole was bleeding pressure from the WG line. BUT................. It will sacrifice boost response in the form of ramping up fast then stopping too short (~1-2psi short of target) and creeping up to its set psi after a few hundred rpms. Very annoying indeed. So either its Full MBC no matter what, or crappy boost peak response. Does anyone have this setup working with an EWG and preferably a prodrive EBCS?
wasp642 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2010, 08:14 AM   #272
ride5000
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 32792
Join Date: Feb 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: lincoln, ri
Vehicle:
2003 GGA MBP
12.9 / 105+

Default

again, a detailed topology diagram is what you need to provide in order to get advice.
ride5000 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2010, 01:27 PM   #273
LittleBlueGT
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 96204
Join Date: Sep 2005
Chapter/Region: W. Canada
Location: Winnipeg
Vehicle:
2013 STI GR
White

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wasp642 View Post
I found the problem, i plugged the liittle bleed hole in the WG barb on the MBC and it worked perfectly like it should, WG pressure and all the good stuff....

BUT...........

Now a different problem.... i found out that if you block the bleed hole it works like it should b/c that hole was bleeding pressure from the WG line. BUT................. It will sacrifice boost response in the form of ramping up fast then stopping too short (~1-2psi short of target) and creeping up to its set psi after a few hundred rpms. Very annoying indeed. So either its Full MBC no matter what, or crappy boost peak response. Does anyone have this setup working with an EWG and preferably a prodrive EBCS?
I totally hear you. On my Tial EWG, the bottom port (normal I am told) will not hold pressure. Thus that little bleed hole on the MBC acts to raise boost a fair bit, even at 0% WGDC. I struggled with this for weeks.

The good thing is that with an EWG you can get awesome boost response w/o a MBC, and tuning it is sooooo much easier.

I am now sticking with the hybrid MBC type on IWG only.
LittleBlueGT is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2010, 03:03 PM   #274
wasp642
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 169195
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NE Ohio
Vehicle:
2002 WRX lots of
boost and meth

Default

im gonna try some tweaking in the setup today, i think i have it solved so we can use EWG with the setup, i'm gonna essentially relocate the bleed hole somewhere else in the setup. I'll give details if it works, it should in theory, and not bleed anything off (like it should) during zero WGDC, and bleed off when the MBC is in charge like it should.
wasp642 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-05-2010, 04:58 PM   #275
wasp642
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 169195
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: NE Ohio
Vehicle:
2002 WRX lots of
boost and meth

Default

Success.......... Relocating the bleed so it only bleeds when ports 1 and 2 are connected, like when the solenoid is energized and the MBC is in control. So now the MBC works like it should and I have part throttle control back b/c its not bleeding off pressure like before with the bleeder hole on the WG side of the MBC.

I know it may sound confusing, but its hooked up just like ride's setup in the first post. Ports 2 and 3 are free flowing at rest, and port 1 is hooked to the bleed hole as in the pic. So when the EBC is on, it completely blocks off flow to through the EBC and connects the WG line to the bleed hole and MBC (connects ports 1 and 2 when energized).

Any questions feel free to ask

wasp642 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What kind of boost control solenoid/boost controller is this? roninsoldier83 Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain 3 10-01-2007 10:24 PM
If the pill is your primary method of birth control, learn from my mistake George71 Off-Topic 59 03-15-2005 12:00 PM
mbc/ebc and peak boost in lower gears? chrisfranklin Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain 2 08-02-2004 09:29 PM
Joe P. MBC XZ Turbo Manual Boost Controller (ebay no reserve) lstepnio Private 'For Sale' Classifieds 0 03-22-2004 06:43 PM
Need Help: An analysis of boost control methods smiles Factory 2.0L Turbo Powertrain 16 01-07-2002 03:12 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:15 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.