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Old 06-05-2010, 07:50 PM   #276
LittleBlueGT
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Originally Posted by wasp642 View Post
Success.......... Relocating the bleed so it only bleeds when ports 1 and 2 are connected, like when the solenoid is energized and the MBC is in control. So now the MBC works like it should and I have part throttle control back b/c its not bleeding off pressure like before with the bleeder hole on the WG side of the MBC.

I know it may sound confusing, but its hooked up just like ride's setup in the first post. Ports 2 and 3 are free flowing at rest, and port 1 is hooked to the bleed hole as in the pic. So when the EBC is on, it completely blocks off flow to through the EBC and connects the WG line to the bleed hole and MBC (connects ports 1 and 2 when energized).

Any questions feel free to ask

Any chance of putting "ports #1" and 2 etc.... on the pic itself. I get confused easily.
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Old 06-05-2010, 08:12 PM   #277
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Starting from the left its 1,2 is the one pointing down and 3 is the right one. I tried hooking it up with no bleed, just an open port and i got crazy minimum boost, so i don't know how ppl are running it vented to the intake. The bleed is just the hallman's barb with the one end blocked so it won't bleed anywhere else but through the tiny hole. Boost response is just as responsive and more reliable with the bleed. With the port capped off like ride's and with the hallman running w/o the bleed hole, boost would climb rapidly, then stop for .5 sec. a few psi before the target, then explode to or sometimes a little past the target which was waaaay too unreliable.

Last edited by wasp642; 06-06-2010 at 04:04 AM.
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Old 06-06-2010, 04:07 AM   #278
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I did atleast over 100 back to back WOT pulls today to test out the new setup, well, it still occasionally does the BS where the boost onsets kinda slowish then explodes to the target, no spikes, but kinda rough on boost onset making the car buck. So i'm gonna try something else.

Obviously, atleast on my setup, the bleed hole needs to be on the MBC WG barb. I'm thinking of making a whole new routing of the hoses, and in theory again, it should work like before but not bleed off WG pressure when the solenoid is open.

Pics and results tomorrow, as i'm still trying to get my head around this but it should work lol. Maybe just attach the MBC outlet to port 1 of the EBC and run it throught there, or just install a one way check valve between the WG barb and the WG so now back flow to bleed out through the hole, but i'll figure it out tomorrow.

GD my head is gonna f'in explode.

Last edited by wasp642; 06-06-2010 at 04:39 AM.
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Old 06-06-2010, 07:32 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by wasp642 View Post
I did atleast over 100 back to back WOT pulls today to test out the new setup, well, it still occasionally does the BS where the boost onsets kinda slowish then explodes to the target, no spikes, but kinda rough on boost onset making the car buck. So i'm gonna try something else.
wasp, this sounds like an issue with your boost map and parameters.

keep in mind to sidestep all this stuff i just let my utec run the BCS in totally open loop. ie, 50% throttle = 50% DC, 100% throttle = 100% DC. it has no "target" boost level and will do nothing to adjust those hard-coded duty cycles.

i, personally, have never successfully tuned an oem ecu to act in that way. while dabbling with it i experienced behavior similar to that which you're reporting. by their accounts, others HAVE been successful, and may be willing to let you in on their boost control parameters.
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Old 06-06-2010, 03:00 PM   #280
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Just an idea, but I found my EWG very easy to tun, like VERY VERY easy. Just use your 3-port on the top port, and have the bottom port see full pressure from the intake.

You don't even need very close TD values, just in the ball-park and it reacts so fast boost is very stable and fast.
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Old 06-06-2010, 07:17 PM   #281
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^Good idea... might have to do this on a car im tuning next week
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Old 06-06-2010, 08:49 PM   #282
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i'll try to mess with my tune a little more, but when i locatee the bleed port on the MBC like it it from hallman, the problems disappear, but when the EBC kicks wide open with zero WGDC, that little bleed hole bleeds off too much pressure and the boost won't drop.

Today i'm trying out connecting the MBC to go through ports 1 and 2 only when its energized, so essentially, the MBC goes through the EBC when 100%WGDC, and the EBC closes off that port when 0% WGC. Not sure if it will work, but this is the last thing i can think of to try and seperate thee bleed from normal EBC open operation, but keep the bleed where it should be on the MBC.

Otherwise, i'm gonna say F' it, and run straight MBC probably.

As for the EBC, i didn't want to run it alone b/c tuning it was a PITA with the EWG, and it sounded like **** when it tried to limit pressure b/c its switching on/off to bleed the pressure.

If anyone would like to share their boost control tables with me for an EWG setup using the hybrid control, that would be very helpful.
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Old 06-07-2010, 04:38 AM   #283
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My last idea worked, WG boost is still a little high at 15psi, but i can live with that. Boost onset is lightning fast and very reliable/stable now. I'll try to post pics of it b/c i totally redid the lines for the MBC to the EBC, but it works like a charm. Did back to back about 50 pulls and no problems, just really fast, stable boost
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Old 06-07-2010, 07:58 AM   #284
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you should definitely share the topology for the benefit of others running externals.
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Old 06-07-2010, 11:13 AM   #285
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This is how I ran the boost control lines on my EWG setup with a synapse 50mm EWG:


If I set the spring preload as high as I want my maximum boost pressure then I know that boost can never spike above that pressure, and with the last port connected through the 3 port I have the ability to taper boost down to around 12 psi.
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Old 06-11-2010, 08:54 AM   #286
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I'll post pics of the setup this weekend, I've been really busy finally dialing in OL fueling all week on the way home from work, finally pushing the car to 21 psi again, and GD its solid boost, and very fast. In short, its hard to explain w/o pics, but the MBC goes through the connected ports of the EBC when WOT, thus keeping the bleed hole on the MBC where it belongs. Pics soon, as this setup works very well the EWG setups, and yes i can taper boost too and redline as well as part throttle limitation. Very versatile setup, but Ride, you deserve the credit for the initial idea. Thx.
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Old 07-10-2010, 09:54 PM   #287
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UPDATE:

I set everything up last night and went out for a tuning session today. All I can say is HOLY CRAP DOES THIS WORK WELL! Thanks to all those who answered my questions! I have updated my post for those who may be searching for this in the future.



Guys, I am going to do the hybrid setup with an AVC-R and the included 3 port valve. The AVC-R's valve is labeled with NO, NC & COM not with the apparently standard 1, 2 & 3. I compared diagrams in the install manuals from the Perrin solenoid, the Grimmspeed solenoid and the AVC-R which allowed me to create the following solenoid port cross reference.

The following ports on the Perrin solenoid equal the following AVC-R Ports:

AVC-R COM = Perrin 1
AVC-R NC= Perrin 2
AVC-R NO= Perrin 3


The following ports on the Grimmspeed solenoid equal the following AVC-R Ports:

AVC-R COM = Grimmspeed 2
AVC-R NC= Grimmspeed 1
AVC-R NO= Grimmspeed 3

(Note that the above has now been confirmed)



Based on my findings I hooked up the barb on the turbo to the COM port of the AVC-R solenoid (I can blow through this when unenergized) and the barb on the side of the EWG to the NO port (the air I blow through the COM port comes out of this port when unenergized). I am not sure what valve is pictured in this diagram but its clearly labeled NC and NO so the 3rd unlabeled port is the COM port. The following diagram shows exactly how I have my setup plumbed and it works very well. The ONLY exception is that my NC port is venting and not capped as suggested in the diagram. Its also worth mentioning that the wastegate line is attached to the side port of my TiAL 44mm EWG but this could have easily been attached to a single port internal actuator.



After getting everything hooked up correctly I modified the settings in my AVC-R. My actual boost target in 4th gear is 27.5psi (1.9bar) as show on the AVC-R (shows up as 25PSI on my Hydra 2.6) so I set the AVC-R's boost to a static target of 2.5bar (~36PSI) and 90% duty cycle (as high as it can be set) across the board. I then turned the Hallman RX all the way down to the lowest boost setting. I wanted to verify that I would have no more boost than spring pressure before I did any WOT runs.

I went out for a drive and slowly built boost using the gas pedal until I got to spring pressure. I then jabbed it ever so slightly to verify that it would not go any higher. After doing this a few times I did three back to back WOT 4th gear pulls to redline just to be 100% sure. Each and every time the boost was perfectly at spring pressure even thought the AVC-R was set to 2.5bar and maxed out at 90% duty.

I ended up having to turn the Hallman six full turns before the car made more than wastegate pressure (1.3bar). Somewhere around nine full turns I determined that the car was spiking to around 31psi and then instantly coming back to 29psi and holding flat to redline so I backed the Hallman down 1/2 of a turn.

I then set out to dial in the settings on the AVC-R. I left the static 2.5bar boost target in place but I moved the duty map over to a dynamic table. I set 90% duty from 0RPM to 6500RPM and then dropped it to 60% duty from 6500 on up. This resulted in a perfect taper from 27.5psi to 23PSI at redline in 4th gear. 5th gear pulls were making a bit too much boost so I turned my attention to the start duty (gear dependant boost control).

Since the AVC-R can only control 5 gears of boost I long ago elected to use 2nd through 6th instead of 1st through 5th. That being the case, I set 20% + duty in 2nd, 15%+ duty in 3rd, 0% in 4th (the tuning gear) and -15% in 5th. Its my personal preference to reduce the car’s power in 6th gear to make it harder to obtain the 150+ MPH speeds I was seeing on the track (I do lapping days) so I set -50% duty in 6th (the max reduction) which resulted in 23psi max boost tapering to 19psi at redline.

I feel that this is a fantastic setup and I for the first time in a long time I am super excited about boost control instead of frustrated. Thanks again to everybody who answered my questions especially Ride5000!

Last edited by dexterous; 07-11-2010 at 05:05 PM.
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Old 07-10-2010, 11:12 PM   #288
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Com = compressor... (compressor...)
NO = normally open... (wastegate - side port)
NC = normally closed... (atmosphere or pre-turbo, post maf, intake tube)
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Old 07-11-2010, 08:07 AM   #289
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So you are saying that I have it hooked up correctly? My COM port is intact connected to the compressor and the NO is hooked up to the wastegate.
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Old 07-11-2010, 09:13 AM   #290
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yes, that is the way most folks have it connected.

remember you can always test the ports with a battery, some wire, and your mouth.
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Old 07-11-2010, 09:26 AM   #291
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Thanks! What do I do with the NC port
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Old 07-11-2010, 10:06 AM   #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
yes, that is the way most folks have it connected.

remember you can always test the ports with a battery, some wire, and your mouth.
Sounds like a fun date
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Old 07-11-2010, 04:48 PM   #293
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Guys, thanks so much for your help, I got this working perfectly today so I totally rewrote post 287 with all the info needed to recreate my AVC-R / Hallman setup.
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Old 07-12-2010, 03:09 PM   #294
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Anyone using hybrid boost control with 14.7 psi wastegate actuator ? I tried but I think that I am not going to be able to limit the max boost with MBC.. must be something to do with the fact that the MBC bleeds some of the air out of the tiny hole so actuator is not able to see the full pressure as soon as it needs to be able to hold the boost to certain level. Peaks too high. Maybe better MBC could solve the problem.
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Old 07-12-2010, 05:20 PM   #295
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well, i've sprung my vf23 actuator to around 12-13psi, and it's always worked fine for me.

make sure the rest of your plumbing is free-flowing.
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Old 07-14-2010, 11:03 PM   #296
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Guys, based on logging, it appears that my car spikes a few psi above target boost just about every time, is this normal? I have my boost cut set at 3psi above target and I hit boost cut during a hard pull up a hill the other day. I turned the manual down a bit so that it wouldn't happen again but why is this happening? After the spike the boost holds rock solid on target so the system is working fine in that regard.

My target 27.5 psi and its typically spiking no more than 2 psi which is about 7% so its not like its a major over boost or anything. Is there any way to reduce or eliminate the spike?
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Old 07-14-2010, 11:56 PM   #297
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Dexterous: that sounds like a problem that could be resolved via boost tuning, which I gather is what the AVCR is all about it. (I don't own one.)

Imppu: what exactly is the problem? If you're trying to get less than wastegate boost, that's not going to happen. But as long as you're targeting that level or more, the MBC should work just fine.
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:43 AM   #298
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Quote:
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Imppu: what exactly is the problem? If you're trying to get less than wastegate boost, that's not going to happen. But as long as you're targeting that level or more, the MBC should work just fine.
Must be something to do with the MBC spring stiffness.. adjustment bolt falls off if I loosen it too much to bring the boost down. I have to disassemble the whole thing to see if there is a problem. Currently using GM BCS but I like the idea of hybrid boost control a lot. My boost lines are 4mm silicone hoses and the lenght is as short as possible.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:31 AM   #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dexterous View Post
Guys, based on logging, it appears that my car spikes a few psi above target boost just about every time, is this normal? I have my boost cut set at 3psi above target and I hit boost cut during a hard pull up a hill the other day. I turned the manual down a bit so that it wouldn't happen again but why is this happening? After the spike the boost holds rock solid on target so the system is working fine in that regard.

My target 27.5 psi and its typically spiking no more than 2 psi which is about 7% so its not like its a major over boost or anything. Is there any way to reduce or eliminate the spike?
well the first question to ask is whether or not it spikes using ONLY the MBC to clamp the boost.

if NOT, the the answer lies in your EBC, and i agree with NSFW that you've got to tweak it some.

if it DOES, then the issue could be due to latency in the pneumatic signal--check all hoses and fittings for obstructions, kinks, gunk, perhaps swap out for larger ID tubing.
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Old 07-18-2010, 05:17 PM   #300
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i'm running this setup and it works great! i'm tuning with open source. my question is, does RomRaider limit max boost to 24.75psi? i want to run more than that, with this piggyback system, but it doesn't seem to let me set the ebcs to anything higher. has anyone seen this before, and are there any workarounds to it? i'm thinking that the only thing i can do to run anything higher is to just run the mbc, and eliminate the ecbs altogether. thanks!
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