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Old 03-20-2010, 10:39 PM   #1
Farmboy0007
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Question 4EAT Phase2 backdate to 4EAT Phase1 on a 99 BG6

So I recently purchased this nice, clean, 99 OB Limited, the transmission was rebuilt 20K before I purchased the car. I don't know who did it.

I can't stand the AT's shift mannerisms. The gear hunting, the shift flares, rolling into the throttle while pulling away from a stop light/sign and it feels like nothing changed(only an occasional issue, but irritating none the less). . .

I also have a 91 Legacy LSI wagon 2.2L, non-turbo, with a 4EAT Phase1 trans in it. I need to do some engine work, and rebuild the transmission.

I figured while I had it out and apart, I would look into swapping the Phase1 into the 99 OB. Has anyone else done this back dating? Definitely have a snug budget for this project.

I'm not looking at making either one into a performer by any means. The 91 is going to get repaired so my daughter(soon to be 16) can "buy it" (she's paying for the parts for me to repair the car). The 99 OB is my commuter vehicle, and see's in excess of 35K a year. So longevity is the goal.

Thanks for the help!
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Old 03-23-2010, 02:35 PM   #2
wtdash
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Hi,
Maybe you've been there already but check out the ultimatesubaru.org/forum. This issue is covered there.

Here are points to consider:
1. '90-91 Legacy were 4.11 diff ratio. '91 Turbo, and '92-94 turbo and NA are 3.90 diff ratio. The OB is 4.44, I'm 99% sure - check the Owner's manual? So you'd have to change the rear diff to make it work properly.
2. The Phase 1 4EAT ('90-'98?) had tranny wiring harness changes in '95+ when OBD2 standards arrrived, and although the plugs may connect to your Phase 2 harness, they are wired different, so your TCU may not be able to control it.
3. The Phase 1 trans only has 4 mounting bolts; the '99 6 (just did a EJ22 swap into one). It will connect physically as you can just ignore the extras on the EJ25.


Also, RU sure it's the original tranny in the OB? Almost sounds like they swapped in something else...check the trans code on top of the bell housing. Or may be try a different TCU before you pull it....get one from a wrecking yard..usually you can just return them if they don't help.

Good luck,
Td
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Old 03-24-2010, 07:33 PM   #3
Farmboy0007
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I hadn't made it to that forum yet. Thank you, I'll definitely give it a look. I'll have to wait for weather to get a little better before I can go poking around the car to see what the code is on the OB trans.

I will look next time I get home as to what the ratio's are, I don't have any of the literature here with me at work. I can see what you would mean about the OBD2 differences. It hadn't crossed my mind.

I plan on fixing the 91 Legacy, so stealing the transmission from it probably wouldn't be my best option.

I know the phase 2 transmissions have a different looking body, like the outer case is actually "ribbed" for the clutches, and the filter is an external spin on. Whereas the phase 1 is "smooth", and internally filtered.

I'll do some more research and look into the TCU being a potential problem. And I'll try to find out if a newer, such as 97 OB has a phase 1, with the same ratio as the 99 OB. I would think the wiring would be a bit closer.

Thanks for pointing me in a forward direction!

Tyson
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Old 04-06-2010, 04:15 PM   #4
Farmboy0007
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Default Order a salvaged TCU. . .

I ordered a TCU from a salvage yard today, $125+tax. It sadly will be here after I have to return to work. Delaying any progress for another 2-3 weeks. I'll be sure to post the results.

I did some exploring of the bell housing, granted nothing to deep the weather sucks still, and the garage is full. I'm having a hard time locating any type of stamped, or casting numbers. Can you lead me in the correct direction of where I need to scrub/move hoses and wires to find them?

I checked the 91 Legy, and you are absolutely correct, 4.11 Ratio. Now if the 99OB didn't have a rock guard covering everything on the rear diff, I could tell you without a doubt what is it. Don't get me wrong, I appreciate the protection it offers, just a pain during servicing and inspection.

Side note, there was an '05 White, 4dr, WRX STI, 6mt, dccd, 50K, loaded, for sale here in town. they were asking $18,900 for it. It appeared to be nice and clean, took it for a test drive, great response. Was that a fair price? I sadly had to pass it up, couldn't swallow the jump in insurance premiums right now. Nearly $1300 every 6 months higher, and that is with only 1 ticket in 5 years, age 26. In another couple years it won't be an issue, just sad now.
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Old 04-06-2010, 04:49 PM   #5
wtdash
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Remove that big intake 'torque' box that connects to the throttle body, and look directly down @ the top of the transmission. There should be a sticker (not stamped) on top near where the engine/trans connect. It'll be like " TZ102Z2AAA " or similar.

I 'think' that after '95 they stopped putting the stickers on the rear diff, so ID'ing the '99 won't be as easy. You'll need to get the part number off it, and I'm not sure where they are on the diff.

Don't know about your STi pricing, but I do know it's going to mega $ to insure - even w/a clean driving record...The WRX/STi's have a very high rate.....likely due to ...well I'll let you guess!
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Old 04-06-2010, 06:19 PM   #6
Farmboy0007
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Default Niffty, no sticker, just sticky.

Thank you for the speedy response!

About the STi's. Let me guess, high theft rate, lots of tickets, and a massive number of inexperienced, brainless drivers smashing them.

So I went a looked for a sticker, what I found when comparing the 91 legy to the 99ob, looks like the important sticker was removed, well, mostly. They were kind enough to leave the adhesive residue.

What was there:
1991 Legacy LSi:
TZ102ZA1AA-JS
233970

1999 Outback Ltd:
Adhesive residue
720293

I'm guessing the second stickered number to a plant or time or assembler code? Any other places to look?

Thanks for the help,

Tyson
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Old 04-06-2010, 06:29 PM   #7
wtdash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmboy0007 View Post
Any other places to look?

Thanks for the help,

Tyson
I 'think' there's also a sticker on the passenger side, but you'd likely have to crawl underneath to view it.....but I was looking on Ebay @ the used Subie trannys and didn't see it, so not sure what to tell you.
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Old 04-06-2010, 07:04 PM   #8
Farmboy0007
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Default Will do more looking, when it get nicer in my workshop, aka outside.

I was over talking to the local subie dealer. I think the parts guy know something, but not so sure about the service dept.

When describing the symptoms to the parts guy, he asked me if I intended to rebuild the transmission. I told him I didn't know. He strongly suggested that if I do to replace the "driven gear" that houses the center diff clutch packs. The chattering of the plates and such will cause it to hang up, locked in a 50/50 split. Which is one problem I notice on occasion. About the others, he also recommended the TCU, and if possible, pull the valve body, and inspect it, the solenoids, and wiring.

So when talking to the service guy, all the symptoms were dismissed or explained by, "That sounds normal." or "That sounds typical." or "The early phase 2 transmissions are a good, stable, relatively problem free." And finally, "I've never heard of that."

Umm, ok.

Last edited by Farmboy0007; 04-06-2010 at 07:13 PM. Reason: missed a word, dang kids distracting me. . .
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Old 04-06-2010, 09:05 PM   #9
wtdash
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmboy0007 View Post
I was over talking to the local subie dealer. I think the parts guy know something, but not so sure about the service dept.

When describing the symptoms to the parts guy, he asked me if I intended to rebuild the transmission. I told him I didn't know. He strongly suggested that if I do to replace the "driven gear" that houses the center diff clutch packs. The chattering of the plates and such will cause it to hang up, locked in a 50/50 split. Which is one problem I notice on occasion. About the others, he also recommended the TCU, and if possible, pull the valve body, and inspect it, the solenoids, and wiring.
Yep, replacing the driven gear and clutch plates should be part of a rebuild, but I don't think it's standard practice. It's what leads to torque bind, which was more common in the earlier 4EAT's. And you could have a wire/sensor issue. Don't recall if I asked this, but does the bottom of the tranny - the pan - look OK - not dents/damage? I mistakenly used it as a support early in my Subie repair days...broke a wire to the Duty C solenoid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmboy0007 View Post
So when talking to the service guy, all the symptoms were dismissed or explained by, "That sounds normal." or "That sounds typical." or "The early phase 2 transmissions are a good, stable, relatively problem free." And finally, "I've never heard of that."

Umm, ok.
No comment.
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Old 04-06-2010, 10:28 PM   #10
Farmboy0007
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Default Oil Pan

From the few times I have crawled around under the car, I do not recall seeing any dents or hints that it has been straightened. But I am suspicious of the quality of the rebuild the prior owner had done.

I would agree about the driven gear, and associated clutch packs.

Oddly, the 91 Leg, never had a problem with torque bind, or any other gears slipping on the original, unmolested trans. It did have a problem within the last 6K, induced be me sadly, where the center diff clutches were burned out and it really didn't have any power(torque) going to the rear wheels. Ahh, the wonders of clay/mud where I work. Repairing this is on my list of things to do over the summer, among many, many other things, ie, repair the quad, strip paint off brick, restore brick/mortar, rebuild 2 engines. . . . you get the idea.
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Old 05-05-2010, 11:56 PM   #11
Farmboy0007
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At the Track New to me TCU.

So, I finally got home long enough to pick up the TCU. About a week after that I had time to install it. Pretty sad, two bolts and two electrical plugs. . .


I noticed that some of the numbers on the case were different. I really just figured that due to a version/firmware difference, or serial number and so on. So at first impression it seemed like an improvement, but as the car and trans got up to normal temperatures, all the same problems manifested. I really think I need to break down and take the pan off. Look around inside, and figure out how to test the solenoids. I am really beginning to think that a couple of them are just slow to open/close, or not doing a function completely. Heck, while I am at it I may even find an ID tag.

Now just to find the time.
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Old 06-03-2010, 12:46 AM   #12
Farmboy0007
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Default Bump/reference

I just posted the latter outcome of a little of what was discussed here in the thread 99 OB Trans overhaul, Valve body serviceable?
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Old 06-10-2010, 03:44 PM   #13
bangedlegacywagon97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmboy0007 View Post
Nearly $1300 every 6 months higher, and that is with only 1 ticket in 5 years, age 26.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmboy0007 View Post
The 91 is going to get repaired so my daughter(soon to be 16) can "buy it" (she's paying for the parts for me to repair the car).
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Old 06-12-2010, 02:33 PM   #14
Farmboy0007
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I see someone caught the math. I have six kids, the oldest is 18. My wife is twelve years my senior. To ease the confusion, some of 'em are my step kids.
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Old 06-13-2010, 11:43 AM   #15
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Phase II 4EAT is about 3" shorter overall than the Phase I.

You'd need a drive line from a Phase I car. For 99 not too hard, but for 00+ legacies, might have trouble cause the flanges are larger on the driveline.
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Old 06-13-2010, 02:03 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Farmboy0007 View Post
I see someone caught the math. I have six kids, the oldest is 18. My wife is twelve years my senior. To ease the confusion, some of 'em are my step kids.
You sir, are awesome.
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Old 06-13-2010, 06:18 PM   #17
jzk25
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The control systems for the phase 2 4eat are completely different to the early box so you cannot easily use the early box.

The first of the phase 2 boxes are pretty crap, the TCU is part of the problem, teething problems with a new design were the other part.

Best course of action is to buy a secondhand box and TCU from a ~2001 model, all the issues were sorted by then and the difference is remarkable.
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Old 06-14-2010, 01:53 PM   #18
Farmboy0007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jzk25 View Post
Best course of action is to buy a secondhand box and TCU from a ~2001 model, all the issues were sorted by then and the difference is remarkable.
I'm not certain I know what you mean by box. Are you talking about the shifter box in the car?

Is there a way to tell what year the TCU is from? I got one from a salvage yard (ordered in, not pick and pull). The numbers on it are different than the original one in the car, I just figured serial number and dismissed it.

As a side note, I am waiting for the valve body to come back from IPT. They got it on Thursday, and worst case scenario expected to ship it out today, Monday. It was pretty full of debris from the transmission shelling out. I went ahead and coughed up the cash. Figured if I'm rebuilding the trans, I might as well give it the best fighting chance I could.
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Old 06-14-2010, 01:55 PM   #19
OrbitalEllipses
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I think he's talking about the transaxle itself.
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Old 06-14-2010, 01:58 PM   #20
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You sir, are awesome.

Thank you!
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Old 06-14-2010, 02:07 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
I think he's talking about the transaxle itself.
I hope not, priced some of them, more coin than I had to spend right now. However, judging from how much I had to clean up the trans housing where the clutch packs ride, I don't know if it would sustain another rebuild. Hopefully by then I am just doing the '04+ STI swap to the car.

Does anyone know if the valve bodies are swappable? Seeing as how I just paid for this one to be upgraded/modified. Would be nice to be able to put it to good use after I'm done with it. Or perhaps the VB is (one of the) the stem of the problem in 99.
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