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Old 06-18-2010, 01:34 AM   #26
Concillian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave D. View Post
Here's a direct comparison of a Blouch 8cm^2 18g vs. a 10cm^2 hotside hta68. The cars are tuned virtually identically by Dom. The only possibly significant difference is the 18g has a full 3" turboback, while the hta68 car has a stock STi catback.

The 18g (thanks, Dr. Michael):
<removed graph link for reader sanity>
The hta68 (my car):
<removed graph link for reader sanity>
Put those on top of each other and it could be the same car on two different dyno runs.

Applying logic:
18g-XT will outflow 18g
therefore 18g-XT 8cm2 will outflow HTA68 10cm2

And that pretty much sums up the top-end debate.

(As if it was ever really a question, the HTA68 is more like a 16g-XT and probably should be compared to a 16g-XT, not an 18g-XT.)
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:21 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
(As if it was ever really a question, the HTA68 is more like a 16g-XT and probably should be compared to a 16g-XT, not an 18g-XT.)
exactly. the only thing thats throwing off everyones expectations is FP's claim of 47 lb/min.

but like i said before.........if they wanna play like that, you should really compare the 47 lb HTA68 to the 47lb 20gxtr.

Anywhoo.....heres a HTA68 on e85....on a DJ....380whp......vf turbos do that

Quote:
Originally Posted by DG39 View Post
Facility: http://www.tunedbypsi.com/
Type of Dyno: Dyno Jet
Baseline # for a stocker at the dyno: ?
Boost: 23
Fuel:E85
Target AFR:12.5
SAE Corrections: ?
Peak HP at RPM:379.38
Peak Torque at RPM: 431.00
Mods:HTA68, Turbo XS FMIC, AVO SRI, DW1000cc injectors, Walbro 255 fuel pump, Agency Power DP, AVO CBE.

i
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Old 06-18-2010, 11:31 AM   #28
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Its very nice to see that the this HTA68 hype is finally coming to an end !

-- Ed
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Old 06-18-2010, 02:21 PM   #29
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The other thing those HTA68 vs. 18g graphs demonstrate is the really minor effect that the billet wheel really has.

non-billet 18g is essentially identical peak HP, with the billet HTA68 showing a minor 3% average torque advantage... However, that 3% gain is less than the difference between the worst and best run on the three dynos of the 18g. Meaning the advantage is 100% in the noise.

In other words, a non-billet wheel will perform, for all practical purposes, identically if it's sized comparably. So bargain hunters, watch the classifieds as those who don't understand physics dump their 'old tech' turbos in favor of the new hot thing that will net them a virtually unmeasurable gain. I already picked up an 18g for CHEAP, cheap enough that even if it needs rebuilt, I'll come out ahead.
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Old 06-18-2010, 02:32 PM   #30
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Will a td06 8cm2 20g outflow the turbos mentioned in here?
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Old 06-18-2010, 02:39 PM   #31
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I just noticed (using the 18g's best pull) that the hta68 has +9 average hp and +9 average torque through the powerband. I will be going full 3" soon for a fully valid comparison. Edit: now I see the 3%!

Dom thinks I'll pick up 25 hp or so. I'll post the results within a few weeks.

Last edited by Dave D.; 06-18-2010 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:03 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
The other thing those HTA68 vs. 18g graphs demonstrate is the really minor effect that the billet wheel really has.

non-billet 18g is essentially identical peak HP, with the billet HTA68 showing a minor 3% average torque advantage... However, that 3% gain is less than the difference between the worst and best run on the three dynos of the 18g. Meaning the advantage is 100% in the noise.

In other words, a non-billet wheel will perform, for all practical purposes, identically if it's sized comparably. So bargain hunters, watch the classifieds as those who don't understand physics dump their 'old tech' turbos in favor of the new hot thing that will net them a virtually unmeasurable gain. I already picked up an 18g for CHEAP, cheap enough that even if it needs rebuilt, I'll come out ahead.
You mean you don't believe in MAGIC?

-- Ed
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:16 PM   #33
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From Airboy 's own car. Calgary elevation is 3438ft.

http://www.westernsubaruclub.com/smf...2750#msg122750
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:35 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave D. View Post
I just noticed (using the 18g's best pull) that the hta68 has +9 average hp and +9 average torque through the powerband. I will be going full 3" soon for a fully valid comparison. Edit: now I see the 3%!
But the single pull on the HTA68, you have no idea where it lies in the distribution of "good pull" to "bad pull". In only 3 pulls on the 18g, you see over 4% difference. 3% can be considered in the noise until you see more pulls to more accurately pin down the average.

Can you tell that statistical analysis is part of my job?

Full 3" will help some, I guess we have to wait and see to determine just how much of these turbos are magic. I'll be surprised to see identical spool (as these two graphs clearly show) and 25HP peak difference, but we'll see. I'll gladly eat my words if the data shows it. That's the thing about a well thought out objective analysis, you can actually get people to change their minds.

Last edited by Concillian; 06-18-2010 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:48 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
Full 3" will help some
It makes a MASSIVE difference compared to a stock exhaust! Spool up is way better and makes more power too.

(and I think a 10cm turbine housing is way to big for the HTA68, doesn't really give any gain compared to a 8cm housing)

So if you run the HTA68 with 8cm housing and 3" full exhaust it will be quite a bit better compared to the regular 18G in the lower RPM range. The response time when at 4000 - 5000 RPM is much better too. (due to the lighter compressor wheel)

Mark.
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Old 06-18-2010, 03:59 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
But the single pull on the HTA68, you have no idea where it lies in the distribution of "good pull" to "bad pull". In only 3 pulls on the 18g, you see over 4% difference. 3% can be considered in the noise until you see more pulls to more accurately pin down the average.

Can you tell that statistical analysis is part of my job?

Full 3" will help some, I guess we have to wait and see to determine just how much of these turbos are magic. I'll be surprised to see identical spool (as these two graphs clearly show) and 25HP peak difference, but we'll see. I'll gladly eat my words if the data shows it. That's the thing about a well thought out objective analysis, you can actually get people to change their minds.
I'm a math teacher, although this of course means that I'm not a "real" mathematician!

There were plenty of other pulls, ranging from 340/370 to 305/350. There were several 325/360 pulls, but the motor started to heat soak and pull timing up top, which Dom said was mainly due to a restrictive exhaust.

He said this was as balanced as he could get on the STi catback. The pull I have showing was a maintainable pull on a heat-soaked engine. So I guess I really need the 3" exhaust (q300 is on order) to have a fully valid comparison with all else equal. I would be quite satisfied with a consistent 340/370!
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Old 06-18-2010, 04:02 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by scoobystas View Post
wow that green looks great in that graph. Whats the deal with sbr-gt12, its really slow to spool, and isn't spectacular on the top end.
some POS nasiocer sold me a blown turbo.....
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Old 06-18-2010, 04:02 PM   #38
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MTL_SLVR_WRX- You sir have PM...send your turbo in for a rebuild to include their new billet wheel!!!!
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Old 06-18-2010, 04:50 PM   #39
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This should've been comparison between Hta68 vs EvoIII16G. Sounds fair?
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Old 06-18-2010, 05:09 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by jonpark View Post
This should've been comparison between Hta68 vs EvoIII16G. Sounds fair?
Could be a good thread. But that's not what the OP asked. Besides, the jury is still out on the hta68 IMO.

I thought it might be fun to try the hta68 and go for the upper end of the data pool, myself.
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Old 06-18-2010, 06:14 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
exactly. the only thing thats throwing off everyones expectations is FP's claim of 47 lb/min.

but like i said before.........if they wanna play like that, you should really compare the 47 lb HTA68 to the 47lb 20gxtr.

Anywhoo.....heres a HTA68 on e85....on a DJ....380whp......vf turbos do that
I may have missed it, but what vf's are you talking about? The vf48/52?

Regardless, that was only on 23psi for the 68hta, it will hold 28-29psi to redline, I'd love to see a vf do that. I still say if you max out any vf series turbo and a 68hta, the 68 will make more power.

Also, is FP offering the 68hta in different sizes now? I checked their website and it didn't mention any options other than the td05 16g housing. It seems everyone has been sending them to Blouch to get the larger hotsides, that seems to me to be a waste of money. Just buy at 20gxt-r from Blouch.

Of course, if you already have the turbo, not such a bad idea.
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Old 06-19-2010, 04:34 AM   #42
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it will hold 28-29psi to redline, I'd love to see a vf do that. .
I don't know which turbo you are talking about, but the HTA68 is completely maxed out at around 22 PSI @ 7000 RPM on a EJ205. This is the unported version with a lot of increase from the wastegate duty to avoid boost taper. 30 PSI midrange is no problem though.

If you want to run it that high boost, you need VERY efficient intercooler and/or E85 to cool down the charge. Otherwise you need to take out soooooo much timing to avoid knock that it's wiser to run a bit less boost. (which will give you more power overall)

This turbo works (very) well on EJ205/207 on pump fuel with decent FMIC, but not with stock TMIC. On EJ255/257 it works very nice also on TMIC and pump fuel. It really shines with E85 (on either 2.0 or 2.5 engines) even with TMIC. I am talking about the stock FP version with 7cm turbine housing.

Mark.
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Old 06-19-2010, 09:30 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
Its very nice to see that the this HTA68 hype is finally coming to an end !

-- Ed
Exatly Ed.

The hta68 hype was really frustrating and although most have realised the dynojet results were bloatedbs, there are still some fanbois who just don't get it.

Go a 20G or 30R and and be happy

Leslie
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Old 06-19-2010, 11:28 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by wrxsti.l View Post
Exatly Ed.

The hta68 hype was really frustrating and although most have realised the dynojet results were bloatedbs, there are still some fanbois who just don't get it.

Go a 20G or 30R and and be happy

Leslie
what turbo do you have? i have almost the same motor you have (EDM V8 EJ207).. i would like to hear about turbos for this motor...

Im looking for a stock location, hard hitting, spooled by 4k or so turbo
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Old 06-19-2010, 02:37 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EMS View Post
I don't know which turbo you are talking about, but the HTA68 is completely maxed out at around 22 PSI @ 7000 RPM on a EJ205. This is the unported version with a lot of increase from the wastegate duty to avoid boost taper. 30 PSI midrange is no problem though.
I was talking about the 68hta, but I should have mentioned, on E85. On pump your right, I'm shocked when people can get over 20psi out of it. But on E85 or race gas,you can really bump the boost up. No vf I've ever seen can run that high.

I was holding 29psi to 6500rpm, then dropping to 28 at 8k redline.
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Old 06-19-2010, 03:58 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by litowrx View Post
what turbo do you have? i have almost the same motor you have (EDM V8 EJ207).. i would like to hear about turbos for this motor...

Im looking for a stock location, hard hitting, spooled by 4k or so turbo
I have a bolt-in GT3076R. 20psi by 4200rpm and 24psi by 4500rpm. Currently making around 350whp on a conservative tune (10deg/10.9:1afr @ peak).

It is a great setup and although it goes very hard, I wouldn't say it hits hard - with current tune, power comes on fairly linear:



It might be just a little on the large side for you though from the soiunds of it. Maybe a TD05-18G would be more suitable for you, as it hits peak torque about 1000rpm sooner then the 30R.

Leslie

Last edited by wrxsti.l; 06-19-2010 at 05:42 PM.
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Old 06-19-2010, 05:29 PM   #47
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i might get a 20g-XT but wich one is better? 7cm or 8cms?
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Old 06-19-2010, 07:03 PM   #48
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i've got a 8 cm and it runs like a raped date puttin down 365whp 386wtq the tuner says it has alot left in it too we just stopped because we were worried about my tranny
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Old 06-19-2010, 07:13 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by rexblake View Post
No vf I've ever seen can run that high.

I was holding 29psi to 6500rpm, then dropping to 28 at 8k redline.
Running 29psi doesn't help at all if you're flowing the same amount of air as at 22psi . You're just generating a lot more heat and creating a less dense charge. Boost != airflow/power

-- Ed
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Old 06-19-2010, 08:48 PM   #50
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LOL... Tru DAT Ed. I never liked the thing. I tuned a dozen and failed to realize what people where excited about.

C


Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
Its very nice to see that the this HTA68 hype is finally coming to an end !

-- Ed
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