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Old 07-02-2010, 07:39 AM   #26
cucamelsmd15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mitsutraitor View Post
If you really want cheaper hp get a dsm gen1 and go old school.


I assume he wants this car to be functional at some point, rather than just taking up parking space.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BenGSX View Post
Either route can net similiar results built properly..
Sure, they can, any Subaru based application just takes $texas to get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinator View Post
I would just sell my STi and get a 03/04 mustang cobra and for 10k get a 3.4L whipple supercharger and all the supporting mods and be churning out 800 ponies on E85. Just my opinion lol. Also a great deal more reliable.
This.

If I were looking for a 600whp garage queen, this is the ticket.
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:10 AM   #27
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The biggest factor i have found is the cost to make hp.

You can make the same amount of hp for a fraction of the cost that it takes with a Subaru.

Its a fact.
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:17 AM   #28
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it'll always be easier to make big power on an I4 than it is with an H4
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Old 07-02-2010, 10:35 AM   #29
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why do these thread even pop up?


There really is no comparison.
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Old 07-02-2010, 10:50 AM   #30
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how about a 600hp s2000 those are easy! Haha but it seems that you've got your work cut out for you either way you go. Just think of your end result, what's going to make you more proud to have built, what will be the most rewarding. The fun isn't always at the destination, it's about the enjoyment along the way! A wicked white 600hp evo would be a dream of mine, but likewise so would a similarly powered sti.
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Old 07-02-2010, 02:41 PM   #31
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OP mentioned wanting to break 600awhp...what's your budget? When I see numbers thrown out I always wonder why that number specifially?. Personally I'd rather have a 400whp car with instant spool at lower rpms than a 600whp beast that has an extremely short and mostly unusable powerband.

If you've got $20k to drop into a car then you can get there with either car. But IMO it would be a lot cheaper and easier to do it in an Evo. But you may prefer the STI interior and cockpit (I know I do) over the Evos.

I used to have a 2.5L bugeye and Evo 8 but am currently down to just my Evo. With just a ported Evo 9 turbo and supporting mods it's just shy of 400whp....on E85. On 91 octane it's in the lower 300's. The performance mods including tune cost under $2k. That's a bargain to say the least.

Swapping in a BBK Full or FP Red or Black and upping boost a lil would put me closer to 500whp (on E85). But those are stock-ish frame turbos that like high boost. Just going to a GT30R or 35R on E85 would adds the power you want but I certainly wouldn't feel comfortable running those on stock rods at that level. If the motor was built then you'd be gtg.

400whp in a 3200lb car (Evo 8/9) feels really great. I can't imagine what 600whp would be like! But whatever car you go with and whatever mod path you do take...plan it out in advance. On my previous Evo 8 I tried out a bunch of turbos and things before finding a setup I liked....wasted a ton of money.
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Old 07-02-2010, 03:04 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OppositeLock View Post
I believe the only question in the OP is what causes the difference in mod for mod performance?

Answer: VE
This is really the best summed up answer imo.

Here's my list of reasons why the 46G3 is better (especially the last version):

1. VE (the rest of the list really all leads up to this)
2. Inline engines can run quite a bit leaner afr's safely (lean=power).
3. 4g63 can run considerably more boost safely due to an iron block and because it has better knock resistance.
4. This is complete guess but I'd imagine the ecu and knock control on the EVO is much more tuner friendly.
5. Mivec on the intake and exhaust cams.
6. Equal length exhaust manifold and twin scroll turbo from the factory, it also has a reasonably sized turbo.

It really doesn't take a genius to figure it out. We're comparing a 2.0l to a 2.5l in factory trim and they make basically the same power. And when one starts adding power to both engines we all know the 2.0l in the EVO gets the edge. As oppositelock said the 4g63 simply has better VE; therefore, it's a better engine.
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Old 07-02-2010, 03:26 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce Cam View Post
4. This is complete guess but I'd imagine the ecu and knock control on the EVO is much more tuner friendly.
5. Mivec on the intake and exhaust cams.
.
The tuner friendly is more of an engine deal than a purely software/hardware ECU type deal. The 4G63 is much easier to tune because you can simply add fuel, advance timing, and add boost and make, in the words of Big Al, "Big Evo Power Bro!". Subarus are much more difficult to tune.

Also the MIVEC is only on Evo 9s and is fairly useless past 500hp. I know this because I have a buddy whos Evo 9 MR is currently at Buschur Racing in Ohio getting a Built 2L engine, PT6262 (although he has a HTA86 on order), complete 1000hp fuel system, advanced ignition system, Shepherd Stg 3 trans and transfer case, and drag racing coilover setup. He should be turning about 700hp on 93 pump. He is running a 280 cam and they can't advance it very far and barely makes a difference in spool or power. Some people even disable it.
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Old 07-02-2010, 03:31 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Corinator View Post
Also the MIVEC is only on Evo 9s and is fairly useless past 500hp. I know this because I have a buddy whos Evo 9 MR is currently at Buschur Racing in Ohio getting a Built 2L engine, PT6262 (although he has a HTA86 on order), complete 1000hp fuel system, advanced ignition system, Shepherd Stg 3 trans and transfer case, and drag racing coilover setup. He should be turning about 700hp on 93 pump. He is running a 280 cam and they can't advance it very far and barely makes a difference in spool or power. Some people even disable it.
Interesting, does your friend know Shep personally or have a really good hook up? From my understanding Shep hasn't released pricing or info on the 6spd rebuilds and what parts are being replaced/reinforced. Usually when the 6spds trans go, the intermediate shaft gets all banged up and is a $1200 part to replace. Unless your friend swapped a 5spd in his car, then ignore my past couple sentences.

To the OP, if you are gunning for an Evo, stick with the 5spd. I would look for an SSL SE, or the version with the sunroof.
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Old 07-02-2010, 03:32 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Corinator View Post
The tuner friendly is more of an engine deal than a purely software/hardware ECU type deal. The 4G63 is much easier to tune because you can simply add fuel, advance timing, and add boost and make, in the words of Big Al, "Big Evo Power Bro!". Subarus are much more difficult to tune.

Also the MIVEC is only on Evo 9s and is fairly useless past 500hp. I know this because I have a buddy whos Evo 9 MR is currently at Buschur Racing in Ohio getting a Built 2L engine, PT6262 (although he has a HTA86 on order), complete 1000hp fuel system, advanced ignition system, Shepherd Stg 3 trans and transfer case, and drag racing coilover setup. He should be turning about 700hp on 93 pump. He is running a 280 cam and they can't advance it very far and barely makes a difference in spool or power. Some people even disable it.

funny.....

The fastest stock ECU EVO is an EVO 9 with mivec, it is also the fastest on drag radials. 8s on the stock ECU, 9.0 on drag radials

http://forums.evolutionm.net/drag-ra...ck-ecu-8s.html

http://forums.evolutionm.net/drag-ra...evo-8-9-a.html

check out my post on the first thread, they made fun of the subies, but is funny because is true
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Old 07-02-2010, 08:36 PM   #36
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maybe he should get a lexus ^^^.

did you move yet steve? i wanna make sure we do some pulls in my car before you bounce.

you could build an is300 thats good for 10's or under 20K including the price of the car if you do everything yourself

naw, september, let me know when you get the engine fixed and ill swing by
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Old 07-02-2010, 11:13 PM   #37
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It cracks me up with when people say you can't compare them. Seriously, WTF? They're both motors, both small displacement, both respond well to bigger turbochargers, both available in similarly sized-and-priced AWD cars... What's not to compare?

Yeah, there are big differences. That's what makes them interesting to compare.
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Old 07-03-2010, 02:44 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
funny.....

The fastest stock ECU EVO is an EVO 9 with mivec, it is also the fastest on drag radials. 8s on the stock ECU, 9.0 on drag radials

http://forums.evolutionm.net/drag-ra...ck-ecu-8s.html

http://forums.evolutionm.net/drag-ra...evo-8-9-a.html

check out my post on the first thread, they made fun of the subies, but is funny because is true
That's just what buschur told him so I am just relaying info. I don't claim to be an expert on the enemy (evos).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostinChick View Post
Interesting, does your friend know Shep personally or have a really good hook up? From my understanding Shep hasn't released pricing or info on the 6spd rebuilds and what parts are being replaced/reinforced. Usually when the 6spds trans go, the intermediate shaft gets all banged up and is a $1200 part to replace. Unless your friend swapped a 5spd in his car, then ignore my past couple sentences.

To the OP, if you are gunning for an Evo, stick with the 5spd. I would look for an SSL SE, or the version with the sunroof.
He actually did a 5spd conversion with the finish in 4th option. That way you can refrain from shifting to 5th when you are running like a 9 second quarter mile.
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Old 07-03-2010, 10:12 AM   #39
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Along with the 4G63 having a better VE an inline 4 is also easier to work on IMO. I too prefer to build quality of the Subaru but since this is a 3rd car, I would go for performance and have a luxo cruiser as my daily.
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Old 07-03-2010, 10:25 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post


I assume he wants this car to be functional at some point, rather than just taking up parking space.
Yea, I owned an older DSM, 4G63 and I couldn't even drive 5 miles to work without having a problem with it. Very powerful car, horrible reliability.
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Old 07-03-2010, 03:07 PM   #41
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I love subarus and boxster engines, but I always tell people if I wanted to build a FAST high horsepower 4 cylinder it would Be a 4g63, to me that is the strongest 4 cylinder on the market (durable) And I see these evo guys pushin 500hp on stock internals, They dont break as much. You cant argue with a cast iron closed deck block. And you can wind them to 10krpm with the correct work. I think subaru make PERFECT 200-400hp well rounded quick machines. They turn well they launch they jump they are a blast. A 300hp subaru to me is alot more fun then a 600hp evo. If you looking for balls deep power then inline six is the way to go. But if your lookin for 500-650hp an evo will do it no problem with some pistons. 700hp plus get an inline 6. 2jz or rb
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Old 07-03-2010, 04:37 PM   #42
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I love subarus and boxster engines, but I always tell people if I wanted to build a FAST high horsepower 4 cylinder it would Be a 4g63, to me that is the strongest 4 cylinder on the market (durable) And I see these evo guys pushin 500hp on stock internals, They dont break as much. You cant argue with a cast iron closed deck block. And you can wind them to 10krpm with the correct work. I think subaru make PERFECT 200-400hp well rounded quick machines. They turn well they launch they jump they are a blast. A 300hp subaru to me is alot more fun then a 600hp evo. If you looking for balls deep power then inline six is the way to go. But if your lookin for 500-650hp an evo will do it no problem with some pistons. 700hp plus get an inline 6. 2jz or rb
Right now after extensive thought about selling my car to get something else, I have come to the conclusion that I would get one of two cars. Choice number one would be an 03/04 Cobra "terminator" with a 3.4l whipple pushing 800whp on E85. That would be a great car for the fact that I am in Arizona and don't have to drive but 15 miles round trip to school each day. My other thought is to get a Audi urQuattro circa 1983. The 2.2l inline 5 is probably the most powerful German small displacement engine in history. There are inline 5s that turn over 1500 ponies on race gas. The inline 5 can be expensive to build, but are very reliable when done right. The nice thing also is that the transmission is very similar to a subaru trans in that it is not a transaxle with a transfer case like an evo. This means you have symmetrical awd, reliability, and strength. I also love the group B rally heritage of the cars. I think the 4G63 is a great engine, but its greatness is reduced by the need for a built trans in pretty much any DSM under 13 seconds and pretty much any evo under 11 seconds. I know people in my area with mid 12 second DSMs that grenade the trans launching once at the track. A built trans can cost as much as the additional money it requires to make big power on a subaru. The Subaru will almost always be more expensive, although it is not as large of a gap when you start making bigger power where built engines are required.
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Old 07-03-2010, 07:22 PM   #43
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Right now after extensive thought about selling my car to get something else, I have come to the conclusion that I would get one of two cars. Choice number one would be an 03/04 Cobra "terminator" with a 3.4l whipple pushing 800whp on E85. That would be a great car for the fact that I am in Arizona and don't have to drive but 15 miles round trip to school each day. My other thought is to get a Audi urQuattro circa 1983. The 2.2l inline 5 is probably the most powerful German small displacement engine in history. There are inline 5s that turn over 1500 ponies on race gas. The inline 5 can be expensive to build, but are very reliable when done right. The nice thing also is that the transmission is very similar to a subaru trans in that it is not a transaxle with a transfer case like an evo. This means you have symmetrical awd, reliability, and strength. I also love the group B rally heritage of the cars. I think the 4G63 is a great engine, but its greatness is reduced by the need for a built trans in pretty much any DSM under 13 seconds and pretty much any evo under 11 seconds. I know people in my area with mid 12 second DSMs that grenade the trans launching once at the track. A built trans can cost as much as the additional money it requires to make big power on a subaru. The Subaru will almost always be more expensive, although it is not as large of a gap when you start making bigger power where built engines are required.
...All the fastest EVOs are using an $895 trans upgrade.

(AMS drag car and time attack car, AL (Dynoflash), Buschur Racing, Curt Brown, Pruven Performance) http://www.sheptrans.com/transmissions/evo.htm
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Old 07-03-2010, 07:37 PM   #44
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Set up the Subaru right and don't chicken out on parts that matter. Head work and cams with good turbo setup and willing to push the high PSI and change MAP sensors and run good FMICs. Then have someone who can bring the MOST out of the setup; needs to know what he's doing.
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Old 07-03-2010, 08:49 PM   #45
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The heads on a subaru doesn't flow well stock, the stock exhaust and intake manifolds suck. I've seen fast spool and big numbers out of stock 4g63s. They designed their heads(as well as IM and EM) so efficiently stock they make gobs of power quickly with small displacement.

Personally I'm coming to the conclusion that having an H4 is like having a rx7/rx8.. it's different and sounds different. But the Evo8/9/10 is and still is the better car even with less displacement. Corner weights can take care of the inline/transverse style engine layout. The Evo transmission 5spd are stronger than WRX 5 spd. If Mitsubishi started putting a variant of the 2.4L world engine in the Evo it will be number 1, unless your then choosing based on looks and sound of the car.
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Old 07-03-2010, 10:09 PM   #46
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For 400-450whp goals I perfer the powerband of an EJ25. For the goals the OP is looking for I would get a bugeye and buy a built 2.2 and a 07+ sti 6spd and rest of the drivetrain; Brembos, interior, etc with the money you'd save.
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Old 07-03-2010, 10:13 PM   #47
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Cars are all different my turbo honda has a 1.6 engine and makes 333whp at a scant 12psi, 91octane and cast pistons, been this way for nearly 3 years now, the ej motor simply dosent have the volumetric efficiency, also evo's all have factory twin scroll which helps. Suby is dual duty car but more well mannared and street oriented...
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Old 07-03-2010, 10:32 PM   #48
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Cars are all different my turbo honda has a 1.6 engine and makes 333whp at a scant 12psi, 91octane and cast pistons, been this way for nearly 3 years now, the ej motor simply dosent have the volumetric efficiency, also evo's all have factory twin scroll which helps. Suby is dual duty car but more well mannared and street oriented...
This is what I wanted to say in a nutshell. Coming from the Honda world too, I get discouraged how these 2.0-2.5L suck at putting out power. The heads/cams and avcs tech sucks when compared to Honda's setup. Even their i-vtec k23 turbo suv puts them to a shame.
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Old 07-04-2010, 04:28 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by CKxx View Post
...All the fastest EVOs are using an $895 trans upgrade.

(AMS drag car and time attack car, AL (Dynoflash), Buschur Racing, Curt Brown, Pruven Performance) http://www.sheptrans.com/transmissions/evo.htm
By the time my buddy had all the coatings and different final drive it was like 2500 for the transmission upgrades and then like 1500 for the transfer case with the Qualife LSD and all that. He spent about $5000 all said and done after shipping was factored in. That amount does not include the amount he paid for a stock 5spd and shifter linkage to complete the conversion, so it is just for the upgrades on a 5spd evo. The upgrades he got were not all necessary, but he got them for reliability, drivability, and performance.
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Old 07-04-2010, 11:56 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Sammidavis View Post
Here is a good compare this is a video of a small 2-3rd pull

This is my 00 RS sti swapped ej207 2ltr fully built 278/274 cams s366 powered VS my friends fully built motor 280/280 cams 4g63 eclipse also running a s366 turbo and we are both running the almost exact boost 23-24psi on 98 pump


Cars perform amazingly similar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al-hW...eature=related

this is not a street race just a pull on a closed road out of town

Not similar, your friends DSM was pulling HARD on you in every run you got the jump til you keep letting off. If you both were in the same rpm sweet spot he would get you on the jump and pull away. In every video he was coming fast on you even this in car link I posted.

Couple of things..
Your car is lighter
Your gearing is tighter


here is you 2 racing on the drag strip, he killed you on traps. But there is no comparison.


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