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Old 07-05-2010, 01:16 PM   #76
Tweeder
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^^ I got to words for you: F You haha Just a little jelous over here thats all. Can't wait to see some results.
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Old 07-05-2010, 02:33 PM   #77
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There is no way to compare the 2. They are 2 completly different engines. Its like comparing a vq35 to a rb26. Or a 13b to a b16.

Both engines have good and bad qualities.

Apples and oranges. pick one.
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Old 07-05-2010, 02:41 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron04 View Post
There is no way to compare the 2.
Actually, I know where you can find a thread where people do that just, in a variety of different ways.
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Old 07-05-2010, 03:45 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aaron04 View Post
There is no way to compare the 2. They are 2 completly different engines. Its like comparing a vq35 to a rb26. Or a 13b to a b16.

Both engines have good and bad qualities.

Apples and oranges. pick one.
For power, racing application this is the choice.

13b > b16

rb26 > vq35

4g63 > EJwhatever LOL

I think the rotory is the best bang for your buck motor out there. Pissed off swarm of killer bees sound over the rumble anyday. I could careless about a rebuild every 50k. They boost 5psi on 35Rs at idle.
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Old 07-05-2010, 04:17 PM   #80
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All I'm saying is that it is tough to compare 2 motors in every way.

For example, you CAN compare an ej205 to an ej207. You CAN compare a vq30 to a vq35. But they are still very different, even though they are based in the same realm. I'm not saying that we can't be discussing the 2 different motors strength and weakness in different areas. You just can't compare them to each other directly.

Comparing a boxer motor to an inline motor is rediculous.
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Old 07-05-2010, 05:10 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PAImportTuner View Post

20b > 13b > b16

I think the rotary is the best bang for your buck motor out there. Pissed off swarm of killer bees sound over the rumble any day. I could careless about a rebuild every 50k or a rebuild every 20k if I have a full bridge port making stupid amounts of power. They boost 5psi on 35Rs at idle and can hit 13 psi at 2k rpm on a 42R
Fixed.

They also have no theoretical rev limit other than materials and balancing. The Australians know what's up when it comes to rotary, just check out some of their 20b pro mods that run 6 or 7 seconds in the quarter.
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Old 07-05-2010, 05:18 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post
No, I had no idea that there was more at play than VE.

Lets talk about the aluminum vs iron block debate, how about that? Perhaps we should mention that the 4G63 doesnt have to be run pig rich to keep cylinder temps down, because its not laid on it side? Can we talk about cylinder head and cam design, and how the 4G63 is superior? Perhaps we should discuss transient response, and how the 4G63 and its turbo dont reside in different zip codes?
that's awesomely quotable!!

I completely agree with comments made (see my first post in this thread). I still wonder what Subaru was thinking when they 'designed' the coolant system. Almost seems like it was an after thought. But we all know they just never planned on the engine's being pushed to these limits when they first started their boxer designs which have carried over.
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Old 07-05-2010, 08:13 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
that's awesomely quotable!!

I completely agree with comments made (see my first post in this thread). I still wonder what Subaru was thinking when they 'designed' the coolant system. Almost seems like it was an after thought. But we all know they just never planned on the engine's being pushed to these limits when they first started their boxer designs which have carried over.


I still wonder "WTF Subaru?" when I think about the 4MT->5MT, but the funny thing is... they did it AGAIN in the new Legacy 6MT.
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Old 07-05-2010, 10:52 PM   #84
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We all know that 4G63 is superior

What I am trying to say is that the power output is the same to 500whp using the same size turbos on E85, not pump gas. EJ255/57 make 400-450whp dynojet with a 20G, at 25-27psi; stock turbo EVOs make 400-450whp dynojet, at 25-30psi etc etc etc all the way to 30R. At 500-550whp the heads subaru stock head become a restriction.

IMO all the way to 500-550whp dynojet, the EJ255/57 with some nice forged pistons and good tuning on E85 doesn't have anything to envy from the 4G63. After 500whp, 35r, HTA86, etc a 4G63 is a must ....... unless someone around here can built a nice 2.0L or 2.3L with iron sleeves and great flowing heads, that can last together for more than 5K miles
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:18 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
We all know that 4G63 is superior

What I am trying to say is that the power output is the same to 500whp using the same size turbos on E85, not pump gas. EJ255/57 make 400-450whp dynojet with a 20G, at 25-27psi; stock turbo EVOs make 400-450whp dynojet, at 25-30psi etc etc etc all the way to 30R. At 500-550whp the heads subaru stock head become a restriction.

IMO all the way to 500-550whp dynojet, the EJ255/57 with some nice forged pistons and good tuning on E85 doesn't have anything to envy from the 4G63. After 500whp, 35r, HTA86, etc a 4G63 is a must ....... unless someone around here can built a nice 2.0L or 2.3L with iron sleeves and great flowing heads, that can last together for more than 5K miles


Now youre dyno racing?

Face it, the EJ25x is no match for the 4G63, regardless of how you slice it. Its more responsive to more boost, more timing and less fuel than the EJ series can ever be.

You can say whatever you want about your EJ25x, but my DSM, with the small 16g and a good tune was somewhere in the 350wtq/370whp range. Good luck finding that on a Subaru motor.

Edit: While I cant remember the specifics of that tune, I do remember that I had about half the timing I used in the WRX to make any sort of power. That speaks volumes.
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:31 PM   #86
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:36 PM   #87
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My biggest question is, if the 4G63 is better/cheaper, why not swap it into a subie. i love my bugeye. i have driven lots of evo's and have yet to say wow like i do when i drive my subie. its not so much about the power but just the way it handles and the way you sit. my feet are way to big for the low evo pedals and the seats are too high. the whole car just feels wrong.

what would it take to swap a 4G63 into a GD?

has it ever been done?
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Old 07-05-2010, 11:48 PM   #88
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uh, swapping a 4g63 into a subie drivetrain would require an extension on the front of the car and you'd have to get use to the engine sticking out of the hood
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:42 AM   #89
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Yep. The mounts are in totally difference places and the motor is too tall. You would have to hack the whole front end to pieces.
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:49 AM   #90
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Not to say my opinion matters more but I have owned 4g63 and now i drive a subie. I use to talk trash about subies cause dsms were always faster with less disp. but in all reality mitsus are garbage. Yea you can go fast but your car will in the shop more than it is on the street. Everyone I know who has owned one had problems. When the run right, they fly but they never run right lol If your looking to go fast, you gotta build it up so who cares what the car is capable of stock. Your gonna break crap eventually anyways because its an adrenaline high, you will always crave more. You gotta learn to control that addiction. If you don't, one day you wake up and you have 20k into your car and its worth 10k if your lucky. And as far as losing the boxer rumble, first thing i did was ELH, I dont understand why people like the half az v8 sound so much. Yea its different, stands out. So what, no excuse for poor exh technology. And to those guys who said buy a real track car a z06 blown/turbo etc. Yea you can run 11s and trap 150mph cause you spin thru the 1/8th. I love vettes but come on nothing touches a dsm on the street. No argument there. Whats more important to you? Having a fast car in the shop all the time or having a quick car you can enjoy all the time. I rest my case. My subie is the best car I ever owned. Its too early to talk trash about 09s though. Did i mention im about to go 11s on stock tranny? 2.5 liters feels good to me. The only reason subies dont seem as fast as dsms is because I havent put a big azz turbo on my wrx yet lol
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Old 07-06-2010, 12:51 AM   #91
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hey..... I am running one of Subaru's better blocks out there.... EJ22T. I have 3300ish miles now. Currently running a 20G turbo w/ EWG on E85. Enough to outrun a 911 Turbo.
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Old 07-06-2010, 01:15 AM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post


Now youre dyno racing?

Face it, the EJ25x is no match for the 4G63, regardless of how you slice it. Its more responsive to more boost, more timing and less fuel than the EJ series can ever be.

You can say whatever you want about your EJ25x, but my DSM, with the small 16g and a good tune was somewhere in the 350wtq/370whp range. Good luck finding that on a Subaru motor.

Edit: While I cant remember the specifics of that tune, I do remember that I had about half the timing I used in the WRX to make any sort of power. That speaks volumes.


How else I am suppose to compare them?

Yes dyno numbers with trap numbers, I am talking about completely max out setups. I can fill this thread with tons of data, logs, dyno sheets, slips from EVOs and WRX/STis. To 500whp IMO they are really close, keep in mind on E85 from setups that I have seen; and even my own car.

My car makes 340whp with a VF39, with a small 16g I have no doubt it will make 350whp.

EVOs with stock turbo 8 or 9 are maxing out at 450whp dynojet trapping about 125-128mph with some weight reduction, the EVOs turbo is the size of a subaru 20G 44 lb. EJ255/57 make 450whp dynojet max out with a 20G, with that turbo on my car it will trap 125-128mph no sweat.

If this makes sense:

EVO with a 20G max out will make the same power that a WRX with a 20G max out. The turbos will become the restriction, not the engine. To 500whp dynojet about 30r size, the EJ255/57 with some forged pistons and a good tune its capable of doing the job. You will have to run more boost and timing but EJ255/57 should last quite a good time. Obviously the iron block and more efficient engine can do it longer but at that power level the suby is a fun car.
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Old 07-06-2010, 08:29 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post


How else I am suppose to compare them?

Yes dyno numbers with trap numbers, I am talking about completely max out setups. I can fill this thread with tons of data, logs, dyno sheets, slips from EVOs and WRX/STis. To 500whp IMO they are really close, keep in mind on E85 from setups that I have seen; and even my own car.
Oh, so youre comparing your car with a full exhaust, cams, forged this and that to a stock Evo?



See, the problem is that this is your opinion, the facts are very different.
Quote:
My car makes 340whp with a VF39, with a small 16g I have no doubt it will make 350whp.


But you said yourself, the Evo has a much larger turbo, and it can do that without the mods you have.
Quote:
EVOs with stock turbo 8 or 9 are maxing out at 450whp dynojet trapping about 125-128mph with some weight reduction, the EVOs turbo is the size of a subaru 20G 44 lb. EJ255/57 make 450whp dynojet max out with a 20G, with that turbo on my car it will trap 125-128mph no sweat.


Please show me an honest 128+ trapping 20g with 450whp on a Subaru motor. Go ahead, Ill wait. Ill probably be waiting a while too...
Quote:
If this makes sense:

EVO with a 20G max out will make the same power that a WRX with a 20G max out.
See, this is where you simply dont understand...

Quote:
The turbos will become the restriction, not the engine. To 500whp dynojet about 30r size, the EJ255/57 with some forged pistons and a good tune its capable of doing the job. You will have to run more boost and timing but EJ255/57 should last quite a good time. Obviously the iron block and more efficient engine can do it longer but at that power level the suby is a fun car.
500whp out of a 30R. That motor might last all of 3 dyno pulls, unless its a 4G63.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:02 AM   #94
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If only there wasn't an STi with 500whp on race gas and a 30R floating around......
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:12 AM   #95
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I feel like I should have somethin to say abou this...

Get the the EJ and get ur 600awhp.

You'll get a lot more kudos for doing it than if you do it with a 4G63.

When my tuner buddy finally orders my 2200cc injectors I'll be seeing what a 30R E85 4G63 can do. Its 493awhp @ 27psi on E85 right now w/ 1200cc injectors.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:22 AM   #96
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Getting an Evo is the easy way out. It's much more time consuming and taxing to work on these boxer engines and that's what I like about it. Yeah it costs more money, but if you're really concerned about the money you're in the wrong hobby.
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Old 07-06-2010, 09:49 AM   #97
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When considering these the evo and sti, I would consider the whole package rather than raw power. What's the use of building these cornering beasts into drag cars. Save the money and get something V8.
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Old 07-06-2010, 10:00 AM   #98
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:00 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cucamelsmd15 View Post
500whp out of a 30R. That motor might last all of 3 dyno pulls, unless its a 4G63.
hey don't speak too soon. we've done this. And the motor lasted MANY pulls. just because you don't see it on the boards means there's none.
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Old 07-06-2010, 11:26 AM   #100
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IF you are looking for easy HP, get an EVO. I was trying to decide between an EVO or a STI when I bought my 2nd Subaru. What made me choose the STI over the EVO is that the 06 STI looks 10x better than any evo. I love the boxer rumble. the subaru community around me is very friendly. The evo owners around me are mostly immature pompous ass hats. And most importantly, trying to find an evo that hasn't the living **** beat out of it is like finding a needle in a haystack.
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