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Old 07-07-2010, 11:25 PM   #1376
SilentDoomWgn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
you know 18g's and 20g's can come with 7cm right?

and the fp green?

all the way up to the AMR t60R......

its the 16g compressor housing thats the restriction IMO.

you can shove a gt35 comp wheel in there....doesnt mean its gonna flow 62 lbs/min.
either way having a smaller exhaust housing like the 7cm^2 on a 2.5l will cause flow restriction up in the top end. yes you can use it for a 2.5l if your not wanting to make more than like 350ish. from the research i did on this forum, most people had better experiences with the 8cm^2 on 2.5l motors or ewg pulling to red line with out a taper in boost. assuming 91 or 93 octane. i agree if you go E85 it would be a good choice.

plus keep looking at the hta68 dyno graphs and look at the power curves. they are peaking in 4k+ range even on some 2.5l. atleast with a evo316g you will see peak power a bit earlier like 3800. the one ^ is at like 135tq at 3600rpm. if you want a big laggy turbo get the hta68.

there are alot of poeple saying its a 2.0 turbo but really its like wrx 2.5l upgrade. sti's will max it out with little to no trouble.
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Old 07-07-2010, 11:33 PM   #1377
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plus we are arguing about personal opinions on what is fun to drive. either way any of the options are good depending on what you want and what your goal is..
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Old 07-08-2010, 12:48 AM   #1378
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xsnapshot, you got **** luck my friend.
ya....I guess it could be worse though.

I drained my gas tank today (both sides) and refilled with E85 from a different station. Everything seems to be good now. Actually I think the gas I'm currently running might even be E90 judging from my fuel trims.

Tomorrow I'm getting a set of graduated cylinders and will be testing the 12 gals of the bad gas I managed to recover, to see what its actual ethanol content is. I'm guessing 30-40%. I'm also going to test my current tank.
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Old 07-08-2010, 02:58 AM   #1379
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Originally Posted by Phatron View Post

although i finally got the td04 back on my wrx to try and break the 12.4 sec 1/4 record.

I only did 1 pull.....made 220whp at 12psi on the road dyno. hoping to hit 300whp at 20psi.
Is that record on a stockie TD04 (untouched from factory)?

Also what is your parts list to get a 2.0L-TD04 to make 1/4 mile traps in the 12.4 second bracket?

Sounds wiiicked fun!

I really wish I had been able to tune with E85, Harvey my tuner at The Boost Creep stated that I'd for sure be OVER 300 awhp while running ethanol with my PT TD04 and setup.

Cheers,
~Wolf
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Old 07-08-2010, 03:19 AM   #1380
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Originally Posted by AllAWD View Post
So it costs more than an EVOIII16g, spools slower on a 2.0 and makes the same power. Therefore, it's the best option
uhh.. well not too sure about that.

I've owned both. My bugeye had an Evo316g, stock motor, pump gas, FMIC,

and put down this:



while my STi on pump gas with the HTA68 put down this:



and on e85, managed this:


thats what i call a nice usable powerband.

now, granted the STi is on a stock TMIC, and has greater displacement, but you can see the Evo316G didnt spool up as many have hoped on my 2.0

both cars were dynoed on a Dyno Dynamics by the same tuner under similar conditions / correction factors.

granted 2.0 bugeye vs. STi i realize is not a fair comparo. just showing my experience with the two different turbos and my success with each.
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Old 07-08-2010, 05:35 AM   #1381
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that bugeye graph is was kind of tune? low psi like under 18? dose it have a front mount? you live in high altitude i assume (ski town), is that at a 0 CR? i wouldn't call that a average tuned evo3 16g. you would have been better off with a stock turbo at its limits.

part of the advantage to both of those turbos are higher eff in the ~2.5+ pr areas. they are ment to be run above 18psi+ to be in the best efficiency range.

like i said its a waste of a turbo on a sti. yes it has a good powerband for a 2.5l but that isnt alot more than a stg 2 sti for ~900$. but on a 06-07 2.5l wrx it would be an amazing upgrade. if your gonna dump 1k into a turbo might as well spend the extra bucks and get a dom3 or dom4 or a 20g for a sti.

Last edited by SilentDoomWgn; 07-08-2010 at 05:45 AM.
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Old 07-08-2010, 06:18 AM   #1382
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Originally Posted by SilentDoomWgn View Post
that bugeye graph is was kind of tune? low psi like under 18? dose it have a front mount? you live in high altitude i assume (ski town), is that at a 0 CR? i wouldn't call that a average tuned evo3 16g. you would have been better off with a stock turbo at its limits.

part of the advantage to both of those turbos are higher eff in the ~2.5+ pr areas. they are ment to be run above 18psi+ to be in the best efficiency range.

like i said its a waste of a turbo on a sti. yes it has a good powerband for a 2.5l but that isnt alot more than a stg 2 sti for ~900$. but on a 06-07 2.5l wrx it would be an amazing upgrade. if your gonna dump 1k into a turbo might as well spend the extra bucks and get a dom3 or dom4 or a 20g for a sti.
The bugeye tune was around 20psi if i recall. as it was listed, it was on a FMIC. 91 octane at altitude - as far as the stock turbo at its limits, all i can say is that turbo absolutely distroyed the td04. that dyno was quite the heart breaker.

hardly a waste of a turbo on the STi. you have to consider the application. in my case, i wanted a stock spooling turbo that held a better top end than the stock vf39 which tapered off badly. in this case there was no question it was a good application.
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:32 AM   #1383
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STI ≠2L Bugeye; granted something's wrong with that bugeye graph as far as when that EvoIII is spooling. I would not call that average at all.
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Old 07-08-2010, 01:17 PM   #1384
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Originally Posted by SilentDoomWgn View Post
plus keep looking at the hta68 dyno graphs and look at the power curves. they are peaking in 4k+ range even on some 2.5l. atleast with a evo316g you will see peak power a bit earlier like 3800. the one ^ is at like 135tq at 3600rpm. if you want a big laggy turbo get the hta68.
.
Spool-up is highly dependent upon air density (ambient pressure and temperature), intake/exhaust configuration (i.e. TMIC vs. FMIC, stock exhaust manifold vs. larger ID aftermarket headers), and dyno controlled ramp rate (for loading dynos). To get an accurate comparison of spool-up performance, it is important to make comparisons on the same dyno under similar atmospheric conditions and dyno settings with cars using similar modifications.

This is no easy task, unless you deliberately hold the variables as constant as possible when making these comparisons. I can not claim to have achieved this level of experimental control, but I believe that the data is as close to a fair comparison as you're likely to see. Here is a comparison of my TD04L-19T vs. an E316G on the same dyno using the same CF (1.15) at 6000', both using TMICs and stock exhaust manifolds. The E316G is tuned for 91 while the 19T is on E85, so perhaps spool would have been slightly better for the Evo3 with E85...

[IMG][/IMG]

You can see in the above comparison that the Evo3 lags the 19T by ~400 rpm up to 20 psi boost. From my previous post i showed that the HTA68 lagged my 19T by ~ 500 rpm up to 20 psi, so it would seem that HTA68 spools just a bit slower than the Evo3 on this dyno with similar conditions and mods. Granted, the HTA68 data from above was with an STi TMIC (not sure what the Evo3 was using), but spool is certainly not excessively late compared to the Evo3.

Take from this what you will. I am not promoting one turbo over the others, just trying to show some objective comparison data. I think we all realize that there are trade-offs to be made when selecting the turbo that best meets your goals...
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Old 07-08-2010, 01:26 PM   #1385
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91 octane plot vs e85 plot is not really a fair comparison.....

put the 16g on e85 and it will pick up 200-400 rpm of spool and about 30-50whp on the top end......imo this graph just proves that upgrading a td04 isnt worth it
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Old 07-08-2010, 01:50 PM   #1386
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No doubt power will improve across the board for the Evo3 with E85. I'd expect to see as much as +50 whp in the mid-range and perhaps +20 whp peak, but I think -400 rpm spool is very optimistic...
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Old 07-08-2010, 01:54 PM   #1387
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Originally Posted by ForesterWTi View Post
Is that record on a stockie TD04 (untouched from factory)?

Also what is your parts list to get a 2.0L-TD04 to make 1/4 mile traps in the 12.4 second bracket?

Sounds wiiicked fun!

I really wish I had been able to tune with E85, Harvey my tuner at The Boost Creep stated that I'd for sure be OVER 300 awhp while running ethanol with my PT TD04 and setup.

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi

Bone stock TD04. Two people have done it now, a 12.48 and a 12.40. A lil weight reduction and a 12.25-12.3 is possible, maybe better with effort.

22.5 psi, and 30 degrees of timing at redline, c16

These cars usually see gains up to 33 degrees of timing, but it was tuned in 95 degree weather and i didnt want to push the motor any harder.
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Old 07-08-2010, 01:57 PM   #1388
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Milo's plots above of the HTA68 on a 2.5L nicely show the increased torque advantage of E85 over 91 due to the increased timing advance possible. I'd be real interested in seeing a boost profile comparison of the those if it's available...
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Old 07-08-2010, 04:16 PM   #1389
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Originally Posted by knuts View Post
Spool-up is highly dependent upon air density (ambient pressure and temperature), intake/exhaust configuration (i.e. TMIC vs. FMIC, stock exhaust manifold vs. larger ID aftermarket headers), and dyno controlled ramp rate (for loading dynos). To get an accurate comparison of spool-up performance, it is important to make comparisons on the same dyno under similar atmospheric conditions and dyno settings with cars using similar modifications.

This is no easy task, unless you deliberately hold the variables as constant as possible when making these comparisons. I can not claim to have achieved this level of experimental control, but I believe that the data is as close to a fair comparison as you're likely to see. Here is a comparison of my TD04L-19T vs. an E316G on the same dyno using the same CF (1.15) at 6000', both using TMICs and stock exhaust manifolds. The E316G is tuned for 91 while the 19T is on E85, so perhaps spool would have been slightly better for the Evo3 with E85...

[IMG][/IMG]

You can see in the above comparison that the Evo3 lags the 19T by ~400 rpm up to 20 psi boost. From my previous post i showed that the HTA68 lagged my 19T by ~ 500 rpm up to 20 psi, so it would seem that HTA68 spools just a bit slower than the Evo3 on this dyno with similar conditions and mods. Granted, the HTA68 data from above was with an STi TMIC (not sure what the Evo3 was using), but spool is certainly not excessively late compared to the Evo3.

Take from this what you will. I am not promoting one turbo over the others, just trying to show some objective comparison data. I think we all realize that there are trade-offs to be made when selecting the turbo that best meets your goals...
good post. the e316g was not the lightening fast spooler i though it would be on the 2.0, but perhaps it was due to the fmic i put on with it. (never should have gone fmic on that setup)

Quote:
Originally Posted by knuts View Post
Milo's plots above of the HTA68 on a 2.5L nicely show the increased torque advantage of E85 over 91 due to the increased timing advance possible. I'd be real interested in seeing a boost profile comparison of the those if it's available...
I will have to contact harvey for those boost plots to see if he has that data saved, i currently dont have one on my computer.
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Old 07-08-2010, 07:29 PM   #1390
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Originally Posted by knuts View Post
Spool-up is highly dependent upon air density (ambient pressure and temperature), intake/exhaust configuration (i.e. TMIC vs. FMIC, stock exhaust manifold vs. larger ID aftermarket headers), and dyno controlled ramp rate (for loading dynos). To get an accurate comparison of spool-up performance, it is important to make comparisons on the same dyno under similar atmospheric conditions and dyno settings with cars using similar modifications.

This is no easy task, unless you deliberately hold the variables as constant as possible when making these comparisons. I can not claim to have achieved this level of experimental control, but I believe that the data is as close to a fair comparison as you're likely to see. Here is a comparison of my TD04L-19T vs. an E316G on the same dyno using the same CF (1.15) at 6000', both using TMICs and stock exhaust manifolds. The E316G is tuned for 91 while the 19T is on E85, so perhaps spool would have been slightly better for the Evo3 with E85...

[IMG][/IMG]

You can see in the above comparison that the Evo3 lags the 19T by ~400 rpm up to 20 psi boost. From my previous post i showed that the HTA68 lagged my 19T by ~ 500 rpm up to 20 psi, so it would seem that HTA68 spools just a bit slower than the Evo3 on this dyno with similar conditions and mods. Granted, the HTA68 data from above was with an STi TMIC (not sure what the Evo3 was using), but spool is certainly not excessively late compared to the Evo3.

Take from this what you will. I am not promoting one turbo over the others, just trying to show some objective comparison data. I think we all realize that there are trade-offs to be made when selecting the turbo that best meets your goals...

I'm just curious about these dyno plots a bit.

The definition of horsepower is: HP = Torque x RPM divided by 5252.
If you look at dyno plots, HP and Torque ALWAYS cross at 5252 RPM. (they have to, it is the mathmatical definition used by dyno manufacturers to measure horsepower)

These plots don't. The 19t plot is offset about 400 rpm low, making it look like it is spooling significantly faster. The EVO III is offset about 100 RPM high.
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Old 07-08-2010, 07:43 PM   #1391
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The plot is different from what you are accustomed to looking at... it's showing boost and hp (not tq and hp). Look at the y2 axis for the boost pressure in psi.
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Old 07-08-2010, 09:05 PM   #1392
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^ Thanks for the clarification.
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Old 07-13-2010, 02:41 AM   #1393
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Default "Reinventing The Wheel"

(str8 h8ers need not imply )

The Performance Techniques' TD04 19T upgrade with the H-hotside option is not what I need for my plans for my GF8, i.e. racing events and driving style. I am in the finnishing stage in the process of getting one of the few left extinct Deadbolt TD04's. I just like the turbo i.e. I got a road plot from the owner, stage 2 map holds a modest 13psi from 2900 until 5800 when he let off the gas--- I was just going to return my PT TD04 back to PT (or someone on this thread/nasioc) and open source dyno-tune again but for the basic DB stockie turbo...

I'm putting in a 15T compressor wheel, and use the L hotside wheel (unclipped). The JDM stockie TD04 utilizes the 15T/HL wheels. I have experience now with my H wheel, and IMO it's too big (even though I choice this wheel because it is the smallest trim between the 3 wheels used to upgrade the hotside of a TD04: H, HL, TE04H.)

I think that, if what we are all going for is stock spool with an improved mid-range on a 2.0L wrx, then the issue at hand is upgrading the compressor wheel while keeping the stockie hotside wheel. The DB "Monster Porting" was only done on the hotside, because the people at DB told the turbo owner that you'd loose a little bit of spool with almost no gain. So with the slight porting needed to put in a Mitsubishi 15T compresor wheel, I think that this will be the TD04 everyone will be going to as far as "best-bang-for-the-buck" upgrades go for, while retaining a TD04 turbo.

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:53 AM   #1394
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I was just going to return my PT TD04 back to PT (or someone on this thread/nasioc)
no offense here, but trying to return the 19T to PT at this point would be a dick move. You've already abused it and ran it for a while. I doubt that would fly with James. Sell it on here.
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Old 07-13-2010, 09:58 AM   #1395
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i just cant get over this stuff......i can change your powerband more through part selection and tuning than these freaking wheels will....

i'll post up my 300whp regular td04 plots in here when im done this weeked
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:30 AM   #1396
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(str8 h8ers need not imply )

The Performance Techniques' TD04 19T upgrade with the H-hotside option is not what I need for my plans for my GF8, i.e. racing events and driving style. I am in the finnishing stage in the process of getting one of the few left extinct Deadbolt TD04's. I just like the turbo i.e. I got a road plot from the owner, stage 2 map holds a modest 13psi from 2900 until 5800 when he let off the gas--- I was just going to return my PT TD04 back to PT (or someone on this thread/nasioc) and open source dyno-tune again but for the basic DB stockie turbo...

I'm putting in a 15T compressor wheel, and use the L hotside wheel (unclipped). The JDM stockie TD04 utilizes the 15T/HL wheels. I have experience now with my H wheel, and IMO it's too big (even though I choice this wheel because it is the smallest trim between the 3 wheels used to upgrade the hotside of a TD04: H, HL, TE04H.)

I think that, if what we are all going for is stock spool with an improved mid-range on a 2.0L wrx, then the issue at hand is upgrading the compressor wheel while keeping the stockie hotside wheel. The DB "Monster Porting" was only done on the hotside, because the people at DB told the turbo owner that you'd loose a little bit of spool with almost no gain. So with the slight porting needed to put in a Mitsubishi 15T compresor wheel, I think that this will be the TD04 everyone will be going to as far as "best-bang-for-the-buck" upgrades go for, while retaining a TD04 turbo.

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi
So now you're going with the original Monster like I did?

I don't think the 15T is going to do what you want it to. I couldn't find a specific 15T compressor map, but if its anything like the 15G its only benefit over the 13T is in the right, upper most part of the map. Its more or less identical to the 13T until you get to 6k rpm on a 2.0L and then you can maintain higher pressure ratios with more efficiency. You'll get an extra 30cfm for a whopping 1000rpm.
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Old 07-13-2010, 10:21 PM   #1397
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ForesterWti, no offense here, but trying to return the 19T to PT at this point would be a dick move. You've already abused it and ran it for a while. I doubt that would fly with James. Sell it on here.
Yep gotta lose money to realize you've made a bad decision, why give it back to James like it's his fault because of your mod selection or bad tuning.

I don't know why someone would buy a used DB td04 and go thru the hassle of 15T upgrade. When you can get a 19T upgrade for $325. Then $95 for porting then another $80-100 for rebuild. Then your DB 15T and Bloiuch 19T is in the NEW small 16G category that would suffice.

And for less money the Blouch 19Tunported will outflow the DB td04 15T. It's not rocket science.
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Old 07-13-2010, 11:42 PM   #1398
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I think by now there are two real options wolf.

Small 16G or blouch 19T.


I'm seeing 20 psi by 3800 RPM in 2nd gear, at density altitudes of 4,000 ft in hot summer temperatures. Everytime I've been logging, I've always crossed 4.0 mafV right at 4,000 RPM (or slightly before), rising to reach ~4.4-4.5 mafV (weather dependent). This is on 20 psi down to roughly 18.

None of the 19T's that have logs in this thread have been moving more air than my small 16G above 3600-3700 RPM. Which is impressive considering I'm in a gear that has less load than the MT 3rd gear. Give me equal loading, and the difference below 3600 RPM will likely be cut down to almost nothing.

Exactly what are you looking for out of your turbo wolf? Quit messing around with these strange wheel combinations and get something with some proof behind it!
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Old 07-14-2010, 01:48 AM   #1399
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What I'm trying to achieve with my 95 GF8 is stock STi awhp uncorrected, and full boost (18psi at most) by at least 3000rpm.

I can't afford to build up my 2.0L and run mid 12's on a bone stock TD04, where I'm at with my parts list and mileage --- I'm really not trying to add anything more. So I instead have the opposite option of trying different wheels in a TD04. To see what happens, I think is worth trying.

Innovation isn't a store shelf bought item .

_NOTE_

I am at 600 miles on my PT and she is still running well, but I can't tell yet I have to investigate more --- she's making a shrill noise at 5500 under full boost and almost WOT --- I can't tell just yet because my IWG dump pipe is SO loud at this rpm it's hard to hear anything else. This is the only reason why I'd EVER think about returning my "Monstah" back to James at PT.

Haha relax guys/gals, you all turn into hens clucking before you know exactly why I'm doing what I do .

Cheers,
~Wolf
WTi
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Old 07-14-2010, 02:01 AM   #1400
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big_dewey ran 12.7 on a stock td04 with 02' wrx with 260k miles....
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