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Old 11-08-2010, 12:52 PM   #26
Phatron
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well....my point was that if you cant drive consistently enough (IE 11.8x, 11.8x, 11.8x) then how are you to determine the gains from the header.....cuz 10whp is gonna be pretty tough to pick out of a slip.

I got up too late to make the track. But i did get my wrx going again......a whole whopping 250whp td04 on 100oct. i dont think it has 11's in it at all.....feels slow....reallys needs an EL header
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Old 11-08-2010, 01:10 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
well....my point was that if you cant drive consistently enough (IE 11.8x, 11.8x, 11.8x) then how are you to determine the gains from the header.....cuz 10whp is gonna be pretty tough to pick out of a slip.

I got up too late to make the track. But i did get my wrx going again......a whole whopping 250whp td04 on 100oct. i dont think it has 11's in it at all.....feels slow....reallys needs an EL header
Yea I am just messing around Ronaldo.. I get your point.

250 Airboy in a sub 3k WRX should get you some good MPH, just gonna have to work the first 1/2 of the track to get the ET for 11s. Oppositelock's tdo4 setup made around 250-260 on 1.0 on a dynodynamics and he trapped 112mph.. That is enough MPH to go 11s and he did it with a 3300lb car.
Get it done!!!

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Old 11-08-2010, 02:52 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtturborex

My fault Ron. We should have been at the track over the weekend. Only if my car didn't take a crap
California speedway has test n tune on the 20th.....battle of the imports on the 21st. I might have to go just to run a high 12 for junior.
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Old 11-08-2010, 04:22 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epic Motorsports View Post
We did all of our testing in one day which made for a bunch of back and forth parts swapping. But We have a car that will be tested in a similar fashion as efi's. The car will be tuned with a factory manifold then the Killer B header will be installed and do a few more pulls.
wanna come up to arfab and do a comparison of chris' header vs an EL fujitsubo? you'd hafta bring chris' header though
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Old 11-08-2010, 10:00 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nhat View Post
wanna come up to arfab and do a comparison of chris' header vs an EL fujitsubo? you'd hafta bring chris' header though
well, hold onto the perrin and I'll bring the GT-spec and we can really do a comparison. I'm game
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Old 11-08-2010, 10:32 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Equilibrium Tuning View Post
Notice that on the stage 2 testing with the Cobb OTS map, the test with the headers is a lot leaner than the test without. I would easily attribute at least a decent chunk of that gain to the fact that the headers leaned out the tune.

-- Ed
Do you have any theories on how that can happen, given that fueling is based on a MAF sensor?
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Old 11-09-2010, 07:20 AM   #32
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Changed the VE of the motor?
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Old 11-09-2010, 09:53 AM   #33
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Changed the VE of the motor?
that would be my thought...but I'd want more engine data before my hypothetical guesses about reasons for difference in power.
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Old 11-09-2010, 11:59 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by mapleleaf View Post
Changed the VE of the motor?
I assume they would.
So, there's more air going through the motor.
So, there's more air going past the MAF sensor.
So, the ECU is adding more fuel accordingly.
So, the question remains: what causes the mixture to lean out?

Bad MAF scaling is my only guess. The motor moves a little more air, so it run a little higher MAF voltage, and the MAF curve is wrong at that voltage, so the mixture leans out. But it's just a guess, I'd love to hear other theories on this.

Anyway, those two charts are not just showing the results of the KB headers, they are showing the results of running a leaner AFRs.

Good comparisons are really hard to do.
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Old 11-09-2010, 12:26 PM   #35
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While there can never be enough data when researching products, with the Epic Motorsports stage I & II comparisons we just wanted to show what an off the shelf Cobb Stage I & II map on a stage I & II car would do as this is a fairly common occurance.

EFI Logic's approach shows the car tuned before and after. Either shows similar results validating the performance of the header and we will be posting more data as it comes.
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Old 11-09-2010, 02:07 PM   #36
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its not that theres not enough data.....its that you have to look at the right data......

when trying to do a comparison looking at boost and AFR really mean diddly squat without looking at the MAFv.......and MAF scaling in general and the overall setup of the fueling and timing maps.

And without understanding how the roms are setup.....where increase in MAFv = increase in engine load = being at different spots on the fueling and timing maps....its really hard to draw a conclusion about where the power came from

IE, if the car was riding the high load column for timing and fueling on the OTS map.....and then you increase the MAFv (engine load) and your running the same timing and fueling columns.....or if the car wasnt riding the high load column, then how did the timing and fueling change in the new columns and how is that represented in the logged data.

The differences i've noticed putting headers on cars usually shows a DROP in psi at high rpm while increasing the airflow. Boost /=/ airflow which is why looking at the MAFv is so important.

Keep in mind i didnt set out to do a test.........but the increase in airflow is above 5000rpm at equal or lower boost is easily seen. A lot better than saying "well the car leaned out for some reason"

here is the MAFg/s from adding a GT Spec EL header to an 07 STi



At 1 psi less boost above 6000rpm


Last edited by Phatron; 11-09-2010 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 11-09-2010, 04:25 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nhat View Post
wanna come up to arfab and do a comparison of chris' header vs an EL fujitsubo? you'd hafta bring chris' header though
Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
well, hold onto the perrin and I'll bring the GT-spec and we can really do a comparison. I'm game
I wouldnt be opposed to this if chris wanted to do this again up at ar fab, I dont know what kind of time frame Im working on but we have a few blocks that need to be dropped off this weekend for machine work so we would already be there. i havent talked to Tommy to see if the dyno is ready yet in their new building.
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Old 11-09-2010, 08:06 PM   #38
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AR Fab isn't too far from me. I'm seriously game as I've been working on collecting some numbers/dimensions from various EL manifolds. Trying to put together a nice technical faq or sorts.

Not to mention with all the experienced hands, I'm sure we could get the manifolds swapped out in a reasonable amount of time.

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 11-09-2010 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 11-09-2010, 08:20 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX
AR Fab isn't too far from me. I'm seriously game as I've been working on collecting some numbers/dimensions from various EL manifolds. Trying to put together a nice technical faq or sorts.

Not to mention with all the experienced hands, I'm sure we could get the manifolds swapped out in a reasonable amount of time.
i might still have this perrin el header so we can do a 4-way comparison
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Old 11-09-2010, 11:22 PM   #40
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I can't do this weekend. You guys need to keep in mind it's not just a header, it's a header and up-pipe. So the install is a bit more involved and time consuming because you've got to drop the downpipe to install the up-pipe.
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Old 11-10-2010, 09:43 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
I can't do this weekend. You guys need to keep in mind it's not just a header, it's a header and up-pipe. So the install is a bit more involved and time consuming because you've got to drop the downpipe to install the up-pipe.
I know...the GP moto is the same way. I'm not scared . Like I said, numerous experienced hands and power tools, it shouldn't take long. I'll just bring some welding gloves
Fujitsubo and Perrin wouldn't be hard and I might try and coax Nhat into being the test dummy. I say that because he has two of the manifolds, one already installed...and I know the hardware won't be hard to take off as we swapped manifolds this past weekend.

We should schedule it. This weekend wouldn't work for me either.

Last edited by Homemade WRX; 11-10-2010 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 11-11-2010, 08:06 PM   #42
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I think some tuners will argue by what method, means and the validity unless they are involved with the testing process themselves.

Our goal was to have independent testing done by a few tuners/shops without our influence. Instead of putting some sales and marketing power claims out there we felt potential customers would rather see what other shop's actual results and impressions were of the product. We'd much rather spend our time rambling on about materials, primary volume, pulse velocity, etc., etc. and have the numbers speak for themselves. Of course there will always be skeptics, but likely less than if those numbers came directly from us.

As far as comparisons go we’ve got comparisons and gains over Perrin, GPMoto and OEM. This represents a huge chunk of the aftermarket headers out there when you consider all the knock-offs look a likes and so on. Our target market when designing this setup was for stage II and up cars with OEM location turbo. While I feel for this setup we can best most if not all headers currently on the market, power was not our only goal with this product. Reliability/durability (no cracking), spool up time/volume, weight, leak free flanges, etc. were also considerations as well.

I guess what I’m trying to say here is no matter how many headers are compared and how many tuners test, there will always be skeptics of the tune, conditions, setup, etc… This is a completely new design, not a 10+ year old WRC/JDM look-a-like, so I expect skepticism for at least a few years until there’s an acceptance into the Subaru community Does this bother me? Not at all. If it wasn’t a good product we wouldn’t be offering it.
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Old 11-11-2010, 08:27 PM   #43
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Oh, I'm not doubting it. I'd just love to see all 4 compared head to head, same day, same car, same dyno with controlled test conditions and some form of consistent test methods. You know how we engineers are.

I don't want to do it simply to see the powerband but to also compare the specs and quality of each piece.

Nhat's car is a basic VF34 on an STi and would be considered 'stage 3' with is fmic, accessport, intake, tbe and of course the manifolds. Hence why I was thinking of it as a good test bed for comparing them all, in respect to power levels. That and he has two of the manifolds already.

I know you're an engineer and look at all aspects to a product, much like myself. If you don't recall, we had a nice long engineer to engineer talk and discussion about parts quality and manufacturing. A lot of it was you talking with me about manufacturing my own rods.

This is also a completely unbiased test if you ask me. My only angle is I'm really searching for a base manifold to chop up for a nice rotated setup, i.e. who's getting my money

If you don't want to participate, I completely understand.
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Old 11-12-2010, 08:55 AM   #44
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Why would you want to hack up a header that's specifically designed for OEM location when there are already several headers out there designed specifically for monster rotated turbo setups? I'm uncertain of the validity of any testing since it wouldn't be performed on a rotated setup.

In a month or so I'll have a header for myself that will be Swaintec coated (I love that stuff) and I'll be swapping it with the prototype that's currently on the car. Before it goes on the car I'm more than happy to use this piece for any testing you guys want to do at AR fab. I've got a few OEM turbo Stage II+ cars (one over and one under 300whp) we could use for testing or another common setup would be fine by me. I don't think the vf34 isn't a very common turbo, and my preference for testing would be with a common setup.
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Old 11-12-2010, 09:55 AM   #45
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Chris I found the oilpump I need to put a vband on your header and low mount my 6262 lol
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Old 11-12-2010, 12:44 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by robbieshonda View Post
Chris I found the oilpump I need to put a vband on your header and low mount my 6262 lol
I've seen a few versions too, you got a link? Ideally the centerline is just high enough so it will gravity feed to the pan, but I won't have any models/sketches until mid December. The system will be around a Garrett GTX3071R (GTX is the new billet compressor wheel). According to the efficiency maps is should flow similar to a 3076 with the quicker spool of the 3071. I have both GT3076R and GTX3071R on order
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Old 11-12-2010, 01:44 PM   #47
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my only doubt would be the fact that the left and right banks of the motor have their collectors merging together instead of merging the front and rear cyls. Not sure if that matters or not....would be interesting to see some side by side testing as mentioned.
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Old 11-12-2010, 02:17 PM   #48
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With a 4-1 design it makes no difference since they all come together at once.

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Old 11-12-2010, 11:48 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
I think some tuners will argue by what method, means and the validity unless they are involved with the testing process themselves.
I would hate to see valid criticism turn into a conflict of personalities, so let me clear something up:

A good test is one that minimizes all variables except one. Just about every test I've seen at NASIOC has not been done that way, including this one. The two pulls being compared in this test did not only have different headers, they also had significantly different AFRs. As such, it is impossible to know how much of the difference was caused by the change of headers, and how much was caused by the change in AFR.

This is not about who took part in the test, this is about what things changed, and what conclusions can be drawn from the results. Unfortunately, two things changed. So all we know for sure is that if you switch headers and run AFR's 10% leaner, you get better results.

So the question remains, what happens if you switch headers and don't change AFR?

"Science is a way of trying not to fool yourself."
- Richard Feynman
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Old 11-13-2010, 12:19 AM   #50
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so wait, were the AFR changed by the tuner or did they change from the different header?? if a header makes you run super lean, then yes the headers adds power because it along with the the car running leaner added power. i believe this is so going from OEM to aftermarket. but some will argue that 1. you shouldnt just throw it on and run it because you could run way to lean. so tuning needs done first. 2. others will say dont tune because that changes things. you should run the car untouched. so whos right???

personally i think all tuning should be done to the max!! who cares if the car make xxx more power by just throwing it on, when it could be dangerous in the long run. tune the car as best you can with whatever header and call it a day. then put the new header on and tune it best you can just as if you werent going to tune it anymore and the car leaves for home, happy and safe. then you'll see true results as if the car showed up to a red light ready to GO.

so the tune showing OEM vs. aftermarket needs changed. either make the OEM tune show 11.1 AFR or make the aftermarket show 10.5 AFR. then there on the same playing field.

Last edited by synolimit; 11-13-2010 at 12:25 AM.
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