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Old 10-27-2010, 04:26 PM   #226
Subiracer06
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^ this coming from a guy who says there are no difference internally on rotors... not worth my time anymore DAVENEVERBEEN. you are clearly an ignorant A hole who is desperate to make yourself look correct have fun with the rest of your time on this thread, im sure more people like me will chime in and notice your a D bag
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Old 10-28-2010, 05:20 PM   #227
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I realize the point of this thread is to strongly state the fact that bigger breaks on our application do not translate into increased 'stopping power' (or more accurately, short stopping distances @ a given speed, which is obviously irrelevant of hp/tq levels).

You mentioned at one point that heat induced fade is caused primarily by pads overheating and fluid boiling which I believe to be generally accurate... however just upgrading your pads is not the only solution, and possibly not even the best. As you pointed out, pads with higher temperature tolerances tend to also require considerable heating before reaching acceptable gripping power, as well as greatly increase the wear on your rotors. There is an absolute trade-off of pros and cons when making these pad selections.

However, a larger rotor is going to alleviate the same problem via a different method that does not inherently contain the same trade-offs... rather the cons are almost entirely cost, and a token amount of rotational mass. Larger rotors (and calipers/pads) reduce heat due to larger surface area and a slower rotational speed at the gripping point. This also greatly increases the lifespan of those rotors for the same reasons and significantly increases the amount of heat required before heat induced fade becomes a factor… and once you reach that point of heat induced fade for whatever reason, you're looking at the serious likelihood of permanent damage (glazed and/or warped rotors, glazed pads, etc). Furthermore, it does provides more potential "stopping power" as your traction levels go up through tire selections and suspension tuning (although it's obviously limited as to at what point your brakes are the limiting factor).

So I certainly agree with you that brake upgrades are not directly correlated with increased power levels as the internet mass would try to make us believe, but I think this post almost carries the point too far in downplaying the potential benefits of a larger brake setup, and that they are definitely not "just for looks".
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Old 10-28-2010, 08:06 PM   #228
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:05 AM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
Yeah oops.

4 0's Roughly 70k. That includes the price of the car, and the cost of mods that I had done/removed and sold. As it sits right now it would cost somewhere around 55-60k to duplicate.
Ive 60k into my car so far not including price of purchase from dealer. but, hey i built a stage prepped rally car. i still run my stock calipers and they do just fine.
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:11 AM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kevosnowsti View Post
Exactely, rally cars are rarely on tarmac, and are normally locking up during braking on gravel so large brakes wouldn't be of benefit. The track is a different story.
during tarmac rallies we dont change the brakes the brakes used for gravel work just fine on the tarmac stages.
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Old 10-29-2010, 01:14 AM   #231
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[quote=Steve.804;30899950]The OP is the one that said rally racing. He makes it seem these guys are flying through the woods at 120mph with stock wrx brakes

There are several cars that do fly through the woods on stock calipers one of them including myself. very rarely off course. the flying finishes can sometimes get up to 80-100mph.

Last edited by LongSTI; 10-29-2010 at 01:36 AM.
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Old 10-29-2010, 10:17 AM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
wow...

Ok so lets address a few things that are off in this post.

Lighter rotors... Nice try . BBKs pretty much all use rotors that are a good bit heavier than stock. The ones that ARE lighter, the difference is so small, that there is absolutely zero real world, or even measureable on a hub mount dyno, difference.
On a hub mount dyno you won't see a difference, but on a roller/load bearing you will..... and that is a better real world test . On a mustang dyno you will see 10-15whp with lighter rotors (10lbs less rotational mass) which are solid gains....... but for the price I would wait until I needed to get new rotors before investing in them.

The test I saw was on the EVO forum where they did a back to back test (same car/same day etc) with 9lb lighter rotors (combined not per) and picked up 10-15whp through the entire rpm band and shifted it to the left. I would be curious to see the effects from a set of brakeman rotors on a STi since they are 10lbs lighter EACH...... 20lbs of rotational mass is a big deal. I might do a back to back test on my own car after changing to lighter wheels/flywheel/pulley/cf driveshaft/brakeman rotors. That's roughly 60lbs of rotational mass....... I'll try to do a test in the coming months once I acquire everything
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Old 10-31-2010, 11:00 PM   #233
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Pretty great post, even though you're stating the brutally obvious. It's funny how this comes as a shock to some people.
Of course tyres, that's how your car interacts with the ground. That's why a Chevelle 454 will do so well around the track: it's not because of a highly specialized and tuned suspension, it's because the car has soooo much torque you can slap on the widest tyres available.

I'm almost a complete newbie though, so I have a couple questions.... (Most of my car experience comes from Gran Turismo 3 and 4, and Forza 2, and I've been driving less than a year.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinter View Post
Engine braking is also not used in any sort of performance driving, not by anyone who knows what they're doing anyway.
Why not?

When you guys say "pots", are you referring to drum brakes?
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Old 11-01-2010, 08:22 AM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superppl View Post
1 I'm almost a complete newbie though, so I have a couple questions.... (Most of my car experience comes from Gran Turismo 3 and 4, and Forza 2, and I've been driving less than a year.)


2 Why not?

3 When you guys say "pots", are you referring to drum brakes?
1. Games dont count
2. Brakes stop the car engines accelerate the car. Engine braking is not good. Down shifting has only one purpose....to put the car in the proper gear to accellerate out of the corner.
3. the number of pistons in the caliper.....Subaru 4 pots...4 pistons
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Old 11-01-2010, 01:16 PM   #235
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I love big brakes.
Everything about them except the cost.
Along with all of my suspension mods and Nitto NT05 tires.
Bottom line is define your requirements and modify your brake system to meet them.
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Old 11-01-2010, 01:44 PM   #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S View Post
On a hub mount dyno you won't see a difference, but on a roller/load bearing you will..... and that is a better real world test . On a mustang dyno you will see 10-15whp with lighter rotors (10lbs less rotational mass) which are solid gains....... but for the price I would wait until I needed to get new rotors before investing in them.

The test I saw was on the EVO forum where they did a back to back test (same car/same day etc) with 9lb lighter rotors (combined not per) and picked up 10-15whp through the entire rpm band and shifted it to the left. I would be curious to see the effects from a set of brakeman rotors on a STi since they are 10lbs lighter EACH...... 20lbs of rotational mass is a big deal. I might do a back to back test on my own car after changing to lighter wheels/flywheel/pulley/cf driveshaft/brakeman rotors. That's roughly 60lbs of rotational mass....... I'll try to do a test in the coming months once I acquire everything

I promise you that you wont see 10-15whp from 10lb drop in rotating mass in 95% of applications. I would bet my life there was SOME other factor there on that EVO. (obviously I wasn't there so I wouldn't know)


Miatas see @7whp by dropping 7-8lbs per wheel. Sure thats a miata, but physics is physics (in this particular case)


Regardless, lets keep it real here, the guys argueing that you need a BBK for more power, are FAR overestimating the effects and are trying to convince people that the power gained would ever have any sort of impact whatsoever on the outcome of any race that 99.9% of people would ever be in (due to the driving skill level of 99.9% of people not being high enough for 10whp to matter)

Plus the fact that there is not a single person on earth that can ACTUALLY feel 10whp.
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Old 11-01-2010, 01:55 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BooSTid_815 View Post
I realize the point of this thread is to strongly state the fact that bigger breaks on our application do not translate into increased 'stopping power' (or more accurately, short stopping distances @ a given speed, which is obviously irrelevant of hp/tq levels).

You mentioned at one point that heat induced fade is caused primarily by pads overheating and fluid boiling which I believe to be generally accurate... however just upgrading your pads is not the only solution, and possibly not even the best. As you pointed out, pads with higher temperature tolerances tend to also require considerable heating before reaching acceptable gripping power, as well as greatly increase the wear on your rotors. There is an absolute trade-off of pros and cons when making these pad selections.

However, a larger rotor is going to alleviate the same problem via a different method that does not inherently contain the same trade-offs... rather the cons are almost entirely cost, and a token amount of rotational mass. Larger rotors (and calipers/pads) reduce heat due to larger surface area and a slower rotational speed at the gripping point. This also greatly increases the lifespan of those rotors for the same reasons and significantly increases the amount of heat required before heat induced fade becomes a factor… and once you reach that point of heat induced fade for whatever reason, you're looking at the serious likelihood of permanent damage (glazed and/or warped rotors, glazed pads, etc). Furthermore, it does provides more potential "stopping power" as your traction levels go up through tire selections and suspension tuning (although it's obviously limited as to at what point your brakes are the limiting factor).

So I certainly agree with you that brake upgrades are not directly correlated with increased power levels as the internet mass would try to make us believe, but I think this post almost carries the point too far in downplaying the potential benefits of a larger brake setup, and that they are definitely not "just for looks".

I never said they were.






The point of this thread, since no one seems to be able to get this, and I will add it to the first post is








99% of people, with increased power, the only time they are going to need stopping power greater than what a bone stock brake/tire setup can offer, is when they are going down the road and have an "OH ISHT" panic brake situation.

And in that situation, there is no brake setup on the planet that will stop you any faster than the OEM pads/rotors/lines/fluid will.
The ONLY thing that will shorten that distance, is a stickier tire.


And for most people, they mod their car and they go out and rail on it from a stop or roll, usually in a straight line. The braking power they have to worry about is going to come into play

when they see a cop
When they hit a red light
When something is coming out in front of them
When there is some reason they need to get on the brakes hard and fast to avoid hitting something.

None of those things would see any benefit whatsoever, from upgraded pads,rotors, lines, or fluid, or any combination of them. Only a stickier tire is going to make the car slow down or stop in a shorter distance.





But people keep twisting my words, and pulling situations that have ABSOLUF'INGLUTELY NOTHING to do with the message in my post, just to try to make themselves look smart. The only thing they are doing is showing that they dont know how to read, or didnt bother to read, the original post.
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Old 11-01-2010, 03:36 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2subiesinyard View Post
1. Games dont count
Well of course of not. If I'm flying at 100 mph and jerk the steering wheel all the way to the left in GT4, the car just keeps going straight. In real life it would also just keep going straight, except on it's side and upside down. :P
I was just trying to make a statement about my background; IE I am a newbie to the car scene, but I have a good general knowledge for an amateur.


I hope you don't take this the wrong way Davenow, but you kinda ramble for a bit before stating your point. You should put in bold, right underneath "Read this first", what you've been trying to say: that braking power and stopping distance ultimately depend on the stickiness of your tyres. The brakes you have installed are only relevant in that they are the mechanism through which the tyre acts.
Like you've been saying dozens of times, it doesn't matter if you have the best brakes in the world if your tyres are cheap trash and don't grip for ****.

And if I missed your point too, well that's another good reason why you should state it right away.

Last edited by superppl; 11-01-2010 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 11-01-2010, 04:07 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
I promise you that you wont see 10-15whp from 10lb drop in rotating mass in 95% of applications. I would bet my life there was SOME other factor there on that EVO. (obviously I wasn't there so I wouldn't know)
This is how they did the test. Put EVO on dyno..... run it. Jack up the car right there, swap rotors...... do another run. Nothing else changed, but they picked up 10-15whp through the entire rpm range, not peak etc.... the whole thing.

This effect has also been shown with the ACPT drive shaft which is 15lbs less than stock. They gained 15-20whp across the entire rpm band. Now I don't know...... but maybe it is just a greater effect on FI cars in allowing them to spool faster.... all I know is there have been multiple sources all confirming the same thing.

We've also seen it with a few guys on the forum switching from heavy to lighter wheels. One tested heavy wheels vs light wheels on the same day same dyno. I believe the weight difference was 35lbs and he picked up nearly 30whp/30wtq on the dyno. That is very significant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
Plus the fact that there is not a single person on earth that can ACTUALLY feel 10whp.
Not 10whp no..... but a little power here.... a little gain there.... it adds up. You will feel the difference in the loss of rotational weight in how the car revs with 10lbs less, I felt it with my CF driveshaft right away. And because it is "10whp" over the entire curve...... you will actually notice it. We are not talking about 10whp at peak for a split second, we are talking about gains over the ENTIRE rpm band.... and you will notice that.

Now for myself, I'm cutting near 80lbs of rotational mass since my last dyno run. Not only will I feel the difference, but it will make a fairly good size difference on the dyno. I'll make sure to share the results though
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Old 11-01-2010, 06:32 PM   #240
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All true points.



But, lets remember one thing.



Almost everyone doing a BBK, is not buying a $$$ lightweight setup. They are buying Ksport, Rotora, or even the Brembo Gran Turismo setup, all of which have rotors that weigh considerably MORE than stock.



Your 80lbs damn. THAT is going to make one hell of an impact.
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Old 11-01-2010, 08:23 PM   #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
All true points.



But, lets remember one thing.



Almost everyone doing a BBK, is not buying a $$$ lightweight setup. They are buying Ksport, Rotora, or even the Brembo Gran Turismo setup, all of which have rotors that weigh considerably MORE than stock.



Your 80lbs damn. THAT is going to make one hell of an impact.
Touché . I def agree that most do it for the bling, or just blindly throw things on. Very few of us take the time to go through it and get the right setup that will benefit us the most. And even fewer of us will ever need anything over stock anyways. Unless they track/canyon run all the time.... no need for it.

Yeah I'm looking forward to getting all of the lightweight pieces together to try it out. Focusing on unsprung/rotational weight and weight loss in general.... hoping to be a little over 2800 in a bugeye. Sadly light weight components are $$$
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Old 11-03-2010, 04:33 PM   #242
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this helped a lottt, thanks
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Old 11-03-2010, 05:23 PM   #243
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best thread ever +1 for stock brakes!!!
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Old 11-05-2010, 03:13 PM   #244
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Davenow

that post was by far one of the most helpful, less douchy ones I've seen from you.

I give you the patented E-high five seal of krauser2 approval.

answered a crap ton of questions I had about the topic
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Old 11-05-2010, 03:47 PM   #245
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Good note on this Davenow, I'm proud to say I already plan on upgrading my tires waay before I even thought of any brake adjustments. The 02 wrx setup goes hand in hand already with the handling.. driver skill above all.
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Old 11-06-2010, 09:37 AM   #246
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Imma buy the plastic Brembo clip-ons and call it a day. sike
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Old 11-07-2010, 01:27 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by brianglawson View Post
best thread ever +1 for stock brakes!!!
Im perfectly happy with my brakes. Theyre bone stock, and they stop on a dime.
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Old 11-08-2010, 03:53 PM   #248
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^

they do stop pretty well

however.....I found out the hard way that stopping on a dime is just a figure of speech lol

Tires > everything else
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Old 11-11-2010, 03:06 PM   #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
I never said they were.

The point of this thread, since no one seems to be able to get this, and I will add it to the first post is

99% of people, with increased power, the only time they are going to need stopping power greater than what a bone stock brake/tire setup can offer, is when they are going down the road and have an "OH ISHT" panic brake situation.

And in that situation, there is no brake setup on the planet that will stop you any faster than the OEM pads/rotors/lines/fluid will.
The ONLY thing that will shorten that distance, is a stickier tire.

And for most people, they mod their car and they go out and rail on it from a stop or roll, usually in a straight line. The braking power they have to worry about is going to come into play

when they see a cop
When they hit a red light
When something is coming out in front of them
When there is some reason they need to get on the brakes hard and fast to avoid hitting something.

None of those things would see any benefit whatsoever, from upgraded pads,rotors, lines, or fluid, or any combination of them. Only a stickier tire is going to make the car slow down or stop in a shorter distance.

But people keep twisting my words, and pulling situations that have ABSOLUF'INGLUTELY NOTHING to do with the message in my post, just to try to make themselves look smart. The only thing they are doing is showing that they dont know how to read, or didnt bother to read, the original post.
Uhh... Ironic that you spout on about reading comprehension, and then blow up one part of one sentence. Read the whole sentence and apply context... I was saying that I agreed with nearly all of your points, but felt that the delivery seemed to carry the point too far, which is inevitable when you identify all the cons, none of the pros, and then branch into another (relevant) topic (tires). You essentially vilify the people that invest in brake upgrades as being ignorant when that probably isn't (but may be) the case, further augmented by the entourage of sack swingers in this thread. My point was to establish logical justification that still fit within the context of your original post which could be entirely summarized by the statement:

"Bigger breaks do not make you stop shorter on an otherwise stock setup. Tires will."

Which is of course true. You'll have to forgive me when I wanted to provide additional discourse to the topic of brake upgrades and all that.
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Old 11-12-2010, 05:04 PM   #250
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I agree stock brakes have ample stopping power and last good enough for normal driving. As for my 2010 STI and my driving, the front rotors were cooked by 8,000 miles and readyfor a turning and all the pads were glazed. Pedal feel, feedback and pulsing were all issues. An upgrade to aluminum hat slotted-drilled rotors and Porterfield pads were definitely called for. Admittedly I can stop no faster than before, but the feel and control is now vastly improved. Reduced unsprung weight was an added bonus. I expect not to have to even think about my brakes for a very long time. With my previous Mazda I did a similar upgrade with the stock calibers and went 130K without a single brake issue. Had at least 3/4 of the pads left when I unloaded it too. Just saying brake upgrades can be justified, but 12 bills for brakes isn't for everyone.
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