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Old 11-12-2010, 08:21 PM   #251
Jack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zero-g View Post
I agree stock brakes have ample stopping power and last good enough for normal driving. As for my 2010 STI and my driving, the front rotors were cooked by 8,000 miles and readyfor a turning and all the pads were glazed. Pedal feel, feedback and pulsing were all issues. An upgrade to aluminum hat slotted-drilled rotors and Porterfield pads were definitely called for. Admittedly I can stop no faster than before, but the feel and control is now vastly improved. Reduced unsprung weight was an added bonus. I expect not to have to even think about my brakes for a very long time. With my previous Mazda I did a similar upgrade with the stock calibers and went 130K without a single brake issue. Had at least 3/4 of the pads left when I unloaded it too. Just saying brake upgrades can be justified, but 12 bills for brakes isn't for everyone.
Glazing happens because the brakes are not used as much or as hard as they could be. You don't see glazing on track cars because the material is used up pretty quickly. If you replaced your rotors with $12 rotors from autozone, and new pads, you'd have experienced equally improved braking feel.

I will say that your new rotors and pads will likely be fine for you, so long as you stay off the track. I've run quite a few of my daily drivers up to close to 100k miles with one set of rotors and many pad changes due to many, many track days on stock brakes. Showroom stock forces this. Proper cool down was always the key for me. Last lap is always done with Zero braking and then once off the track, I drive around for 5 minutes with no brakes. This is why I don't warp rotors.
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Old 11-18-2010, 05:04 PM   #252
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To the OP, Wow there's a first, a long rambling post that actually made sense and had a point, great job.
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Old 11-21-2010, 09:26 PM   #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
All true points.



But, lets remember one thing.



Almost everyone doing a BBK, is not buying a $$$ lightweight setup. They are buying Ksport, Rotora, or even the Brembo Gran Turismo setup, all of which have rotors that weigh considerably MORE than stock.



Your 80lbs damn. THAT is going to make one hell of an impact.
This was not what your initial statement was. This is why I said you needed to clarify your post.

Now you are admitting there is a difference between a lightweight and non-lightweight BBK. Progress is being made...

Just make sure the initial post gets cleaned up, as who knows how many people rarely make it past page one.
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Old 11-22-2010, 04:55 PM   #254
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awesome post!
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Old 11-24-2010, 04:22 AM   #255
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This is good post, it just shows that theres always going to be somebody or a know it all person out there posting a statement reply to a post. Thats what forums freely about..
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:30 PM   #256
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Wow thank you so much for this post, now I can take the money I was going to spend on brakes and put it toward tires! I just honestly didn't know this info, thanks again!
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Old 11-29-2010, 01:37 PM   #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartmans 03_Wagon View Post
Ummm so good arument if we are debating based on opinion, but where are the facts? Controlled stopping tests on same car with different brakes? Braking under hard track driving vs. street driving, wet and dry braking, and on and on.

You're stickies seem to be opinion and severely lacking in the evidence department, I would be more inclined to read what you say if it wasn't just opinion after opinion with nothing besides your (1 person's) experience.
Physics are not an opinion, unfortunately. To stop the car you need to decelerate it. Since we're not equipped with parachutes or reverse thrusters, the only way it's happening (short of drag) is through surface friction. The only points of contact in between the car and the road is the tire. The force applied at the contact point is equal to mass x acceleration vector. The static friction coefficient will then be the ONLY parameter at this point which will yield the moment (or the peak deceleration value) at which you will lock your tires. Want to decrease your stopping distance? Change the said coefficient - brake on a surface with more grip, or get tires with more grip.

One thing that people forget is that stock cars are designed to be able to sustain a single threshold breaking event from their top speed to zero under full legal load. Period. (and I wouldn't be suprised if there was an additional margin for downhill cases too) You can lock the tires / engage the ABS of ANY stock car on the best hyperpaved street on this continent - which implies that the brakes have sufficient power and that the limiting factor is the tire/surface grip. Brakes are also designed so as to provide sufficient thermal dissipation for the aforementioned braking event.

Fading, overheating, boiling, thermal dissipation, and all of the issues people raised on here - they all are outside of the original post, as they deal with repetitive braking with intervals which do not allow sufficient cooling - and cooling here is the ONLY issue. On the first U-turn or twistie in a canyon, stock brakes will be perfectly sufficient regardless if it's a 165hp NA or a 700whp STi (corrected for the vehicle's weight an speed from which it is decelerating). On the 10th turn, temperature effects will chime in - but NOT a lack of intitial "breaking power".

Also, a MAJOR source of naive confusion is the brake response vs pedal depression. It is the same as with the DBW system on newer imprezas. Remapping your DBW map will NOT make your car accelerate faster, it will make it "feel quicker" due to a more pronounced initial response to partial gas pedal brush. Similarly, revamping your brakes will make it "feel stop better" because the initial grip will be stronger.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby207 View Post
great thread... can't argue with physics
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Old 12-03-2010, 09:27 AM   #258
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Top gear demo's this theory when they try and speed up a Renault Avantime and the first thing they do is a big brake kit and go...slower.

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Old 12-07-2010, 12:44 AM   #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefoton View Post
Fading, overheating, boiling, thermal dissipation, and all of the issues people raised on here - they all are outside of the original post, as they deal with repetitive braking with intervals which do not allow sufficient cooling - and cooling here is the ONLY issue. On the first U-turn or twistie in a canyon, stock brakes will be perfectly sufficient regardless if it's a 165hp NA or a 700whp STi (corrected for the vehicle's weight an speed from which it is decelerating). On the 10th turn, temperature effects will chime in - but NOT a lack of intitial "breaking power".
Depending on where the posts you are referring to are in the timeline, they are likely responses to the original (since edited and clarified in big red) post which was more of a blanket statement that big brakes will not make your car safer, no matter your power, and are just for looks.

A lot of the responses were to the 'safer' generalization. More power usually means more speed, and that means more energy that needs somewhere to go. So canyon runs, fade situations, and big heat-sinking rotors were brought up.

It's since been corrected to a more specific point of: bigger brakes will not shorten your one-time panic stop distances. Though getting nit-picky, you could argue that there's a possibility of shortening the distance if the overall mass of the big brakes are less than the originals...
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Old 12-08-2010, 05:41 PM   #260
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im glad the op decided to change the overall argument of stock brakes vs. aftermarket in regards to panic stopping because with high spirited driving what he was saying was just not correct at all.. yes i know its been said before and ill sate my opinion as well... i drive spirited but safe a lot and upgrading the pads and going to stainless lines(for feel purposes) goes a long way... that is all
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Old 12-14-2010, 03:15 PM   #261
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Okay, came across this while searching for something else, but I thought I'd chip in. It kind of reminds me of stuff from road racing, misconceptions thereof, and so on. So here goes.

I'm an engineer, biased heavily towards motorsports, and my dad and I run an RX-7 built to SCCA's E-Production class. For reference, E-Prod is a fairly modified class; 240-280 crank HP or so widebodied cars on dedicated racing slicks. Not as much straight line as Subie guys are used to thinking of, but more cornering and braking loads than all but the top time attack guys are going to see. Winner of the runoffs cut a 2:28 lap at Road America this year... well, it's an SCCA class, results are posted online if you want to compare your local track. Now, we're amateur level, not going to claim otherwise, but are friends with the guy who ended up 5th at the national championship runoffs this year, and the guy who finished 3rd at the June Sprints this year.

E-Production rules require stock calipers and rotors, aside from some special cases. For the cars in the class, this is almost always a cast iron, single piston floating caliper.

It's going to take some serious street driving to be harder on the brakes than that.
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:08 PM   #262
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the number one most important thing for any street car is

the correct tire for the weather conditions

so that your contact patch can operate at it's full abilty.
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Old 12-25-2010, 01:17 PM   #263
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Well here we go.

This is REALLY going to upset the crybabies that spent more on their brakes than they needed to.



Hard test data.

Same car
Controlled course
Same driver.


Mazda MX-5


OEM pads
60-0 distance 115.7ft
Peak braking 1.167G
Lap time 53.10 sec

Hawk HPS pads (performane street/autocross pad)
60-0 distance 114.5ft
Peak braking 1.175g
Lap time 53.13 sec


Hawk HP+ (track day pad)
60-0 distance 114.7
Peak braking 1.162g
Lap time 53.08



Hawk DTC-60 (full on race pad)
60-0 distance 115.3ft
Peak braking 1.151G
Lap time 53.26 sec





And here is what PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS, in other words, better drivers than pretty much anyone in this thread, had to say.


"While out drivers noticed obvious differences in the feel of the brake pads, the data showed otherwise. There were no significant objective differences between any of the brake pads in terms of lap times, peak stopping forces or stopping distances . This makes sense, as we didnt change the biggest factor in braking performance: the tires

However, good pedal feel and consistancy can definitely help driver comfort- which can then translate to confidence and better performance."









There ya have it. Direct from Grassroots Motorsports magazine. Using drivers who win nationals, editorial staff that actually race, all incredibly knowledgeable people that do this day in and day out, to a level that most of us could only dream of.

Now what?


OBVIOUSLY this was done under autocross conditions, which wont bring heat fade into the picture like at a track day or long canyon carving session will. But the reality is that 99.9% of you will never be in a situation where brake fade will be an issue that isnt a result of poor braking technique anyway. So the results are 100% applicable and relevant.



In any case, this shows, beyond a shadow of doubt, that emergency stops and such (the ones that affect how "safe" your car is since some of you somehow think a 500whp car traveling at 100mph takes more force to stop than a 5whp car traveling at 100mph) are not affected whatsoever by your brake pads. Its all in the tires.



Again credit for the quoted section and data goes to GRM magazine. Another great article dispelling myths.

Last edited by Davenow; 12-25-2010 at 01:22 PM.
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Old 12-25-2010, 01:32 PM   #264
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im not trying to kick you down at all. i actually agree with what you are saying. I think i always had the logic that a brembo or big brake kit would be way more durable at speeds of lets say 140+ than a stock brake set up would be. wouldnt you assume the same thing? i mean thats why we upgrade bushings, mounts, sways, and carriage supports so our cars can take a better beating. so i am assuming people upgrade their brakes because they feel a brembo will take a bigger beating than a stock brake.
at least that is the mentality i have had. I think that would be the only thing i would question.... Are you saying that an OEM brake set will perform the SAME way as a brembo kit at speeds of 140+? as far as efficiency and effectiveness?
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Old 12-25-2010, 05:10 PM   #265
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Oh yeah durability, I have no data but I would definitely assume that larger pads would last longer and hold up to track abuse better.


But keep in mind that neither of those things is what this thread is about.


At 140, someone say pulls into your lane and you have to slam on the brakes, yes, 100% the OEM brakes will perform dead balls on like a $2500 big brake kit. The determining factor of what happens will be the grip the tires have.

Do that a couple times back to back, and the story changes as the heat would fade the OEM brakes into uselessness. But if you are doing that back to back on the street, wtf are you doing?



I don't know if I brought this up (or if anyone else has) that stickier tires (be it wider or softer rubber or both) will bring heat fade in earlier, because you can brake harder without locking the tires. Which means you would then need brakes that can handle heat a bit better. That could be pads only, or pads/fluid, all the way up to everything. Depending on how severe the problem is. But that, again, is assuming repeated hard braking like at a track event or a long "canyon run" type situation. Once again, that isn't what this thread is about.
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Old 12-25-2010, 05:15 PM   #266
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I will also admit that there are few things as sexy as big shiny brakes. Its most definitely a legit mod for looks as well. And I am not putting down putting them on a car purely for the look, that is 100% fine.

Its the "you need them since you added 100hp" flawed mentality that I am speaking of.

If you gave me the Brembo Gran Turismo kit for my FXT, I would install it then step back and change my underwear at how badass they look. But I would also know 100% that I don't need them.
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Old 12-25-2010, 05:51 PM   #267
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ok well i just wanted to understand your complete point of view because i did not read that in your original post. i will definitley have to agree with you on this then.
but hey when the day comes and i have the extra 4k to spend on a big brake kit im gonna do it
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Old 12-27-2010, 12:20 PM   #268
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Default Best Upgrade...

Knowing how to drive eliminates the need for a ridiculous brake kit unless you track the car or don't know how to drive.

Best Upgrade I've ever done is a brake booster/steel lines/fluid/pads...cost less than 500 bucks and the brakes respond much better and operate wonderfully and don't heat soak worth a damn. If you have an STi then you shouldn't even be playing with the idea of replacing the pistons...rotors I could understand. I may get some floating rotors just for the benefit of less rotational weight etc but some of these HUGE brake kits are so funny to read about! Subaru's usually weight somewhere between what? 2900 and 3500 pounds with the driver in the car? I am always amused when I see an 8 thousand dollar brake kit on a subi...just a waste.
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Old 12-27-2010, 12:22 PM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
Well here we go.

This is REALLY going to upset the crybabies that spent more on their brakes than they needed to.



Hard test data.

Same car
Controlled course
Same driver.


Mazda MX-5


OEM pads
60-0 distance 115.7ft
Peak braking 1.167G
Lap time 53.10 sec

Hawk HPS pads (performane street/autocross pad)
60-0 distance 114.5ft
Peak braking 1.175g
Lap time 53.13 sec


Hawk HP+ (track day pad)
60-0 distance 114.7
Peak braking 1.162g
Lap time 53.08



Hawk DTC-60 (full on race pad)
60-0 distance 115.3ft
Peak braking 1.151G
Lap time 53.26 sec





And here is what PROFESSIONAL DRIVERS, in other words, better drivers than pretty much anyone in this thread, had to say.


"While out drivers noticed obvious differences in the feel of the brake pads, the data showed otherwise. There were no significant objective differences between any of the brake pads in terms of lap times, peak stopping forces or stopping distances . This makes sense, as we didnt change the biggest factor in braking performance: the tires

However, good pedal feel and consistancy can definitely help driver comfort- which can then translate to confidence and better performance."









There ya have it. Direct from Grassroots Motorsports magazine. Using drivers who win nationals, editorial staff that actually race, all incredibly knowledgeable people that do this day in and day out, to a level that most of us could only dream of.

Now what?


OBVIOUSLY this was done under autocross conditions, which wont bring heat fade into the picture like at a track day or long canyon carving session will. But the reality is that 99.9% of you will never be in a situation where brake fade will be an issue that isnt a result of poor braking technique anyway. So the results are 100% applicable and relevant.



In any case, this shows, beyond a shadow of doubt, that emergency stops and such (the ones that affect how "safe" your car is since some of you somehow think a 500whp car traveling at 100mph takes more force to stop than a 5whp car traveling at 100mph) are not affected whatsoever by your brake pads. Its all in the tires.



Again credit for the quoted section and data goes to GRM magazine. Another great article dispelling myths.
LOVE IT!
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Old 12-28-2010, 02:30 PM   #270
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
Well here we go.

This is REALLY going to upset the crybabies that spent more on their brakes than they needed to.
I'm jealous your issue of GRM got to you before mine did.

I'm guilty of wanting upgraded calipers and rotors too, mind, but having a machine shop at one's disposal leads to all sorts of unnecessary projects and mods. Emphasis mine.
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Old 01-01-2011, 06:24 PM   #271
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I love you, dave.
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Old 01-05-2011, 03:20 AM   #272
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Being a newcomer this thread is very informative and to the point, thanks.
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:05 AM   #273
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This may have already been posted in here, but I thought the reason for drilled/slotted rotors on modern set-ups was to "wipe the pad" when braking. That way it's always a fresh surface that is free of dust and glazing so that you get a good, solid bite right off the bat and a more consistent pedal feel. Is this a misconception?


Somewhat (un)Related:
A guy I used to work with had a modified SHO that he ran at track events. He had a pretty nice (read expensive) looking two-piece, aluminum hat, slotted rotor set-up. He swore by it. He hated drilled rotors, though. He had a couple stories about guys with drilled rotors having them crack, chunk apart, and, in some cases, explode at track events. It would punch holes in the rim and blowout the tire.

He did have a tendency to exaggerate, though. So that could mostly be BS.


EDIT: Almost forgot. Great post. Very well plotted out.
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Old 01-13-2011, 11:56 AM   #274
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Im probably "minority" on NASIOC that actually pushes my STi's brakes to the limits of fading in HPDE.

I can DEFINATELY lend some legitimacy to the OP's claims.

I actually had to learn the hard way, (before reading this) when I had some HAWK HP+ pads on my STi.

Naturally I thought if I have a "race pad" I would stop quicker, period. Nope, the first month I had them on I made a full on emergency stop on COLD "track pads" and I actually stopped IN THE MIDDLE OF THE INTERSECTION.

They actually performed WORSE than OEM or "DD brake pads"


Very good write up, I always lol when I see tools with they slotted and drilled rotors on the chevy silverados or honda civics or whatever.

I noticed that steel brake lines were attacked, I dont have any. But from what I understood from various people is that the hard case of the line prevents air bubbles. So is that a myth?
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Old 01-15-2011, 01:16 AM   #275
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great post everything you said makes absolute sense but supporting mods ftw!
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