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Old 01-04-2011, 02:14 PM   #351
maxplanck
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Open thread to discuss tunes, answer questions, and advise.... Anyone?
Bring it on...
Lets talk about closed loop / open loop delay. I've zeroed it in my 04 wrx. Seems to make a world of difference in driveability. If there's a down side, I have not discovered it.

My '11 has significant CL/OL delays in the rom, though it doesn't appear to have the same driveability issues, it can't be good for the engine to get to high load lean and others' dyno charts clearly show that this engine will make a lot of boost and a lot of power while staying very lean. This car is a daily driver... not looking to make more power but definitely do want maximum longevity/reliability.
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Old 01-04-2011, 03:06 PM   #352
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Great questions.

On the early 16bit ECUs we have also found that reducing the CL/OL delays to 250 or less does make some nice differences in smoothness. 100% of the tuners I work with including Cobb tuners practice this method. I am not aware of any real issues as long as the rest of the tune compliments the change.

With the newer ECUs that are now 32bit and considerably faster we also find that the delays do not seem to have as much impact when they are changed. There are also many more tables that have been added to the ECUs logic for making the transition between CL/OL. Keep in mind these delays are happening in seconds to milliseconds depending on different conditions defined by the additional parameters. It is a complicated system to follow now with all the varibles. When I tune these cars I tend to reduce the delays slightly but not completely as there seems to be no real need for zero delays. Zeroing delays defeats ALL of the other transition logic from what I can tell.

Your question about lean conditions at high loads. Consider a few things here.

1. Is the car actually lean at high loads? There will always be a delay watching a wideband sensor especially depending on its location. NOTE: You can counter some of this with increased "Tip-in" adjustment.

2. Is timing being pulled from feed back knock correction or other corrections during this period? There is a lot going on at this point but logging is your best friend. If knock is not present odds are your ok.

3. A controlled lean condition prior to full spool and full load will aid in reducing spool time. This is a trick used by default on the Mitsubishi Evos and it works well. I carefully tune this into Subarus as well.

4. Anything at or below a 12.5:1 during spool and lower loads is not lean. Many WRX/STI we see with factory tunes will do this by default. A mix at 11.2-11.8:1 AFR is a sweet spot on these cars with decent fuel(octane). In many cases I have found personally that going more rich than 10.8:1 AFR actually promotes knock in the WRX/STI motors.

5. Longevity / Reliability will depend on many factors some of which are out of your control. The main factor with a boxer motor to watch is knock. The knock sensing system is very advanced and quite reliable. Knock puts a lot of stress on the internals, it can cause early bearing failure over time even in small amounts. Log FBKC (feed back knock correction) and make sure the IAM/DAM stays at the max (1.0 for 32bit, 16 for 16bit). Keep your AFR above 10.2:1. Don't overspool your turbo. Check your oil a lot (#1 killer of most of the motors we have rebuilt).




Quote:
Originally Posted by maxplanck View Post
Lets talk about closed loop / open loop delay. I've zeroed it in my 04 wrx. Seems to make a world of difference in driveability. If there's a down side, I have not discovered it.

My '11 has significant CL/OL delays in the rom, though it doesn't appear to have the same driveability issues, it can't be good for the engine to get to high load lean and others' dyno charts clearly show that this engine will make a lot of boost and a lot of power while staying very lean. This car is a daily driver... not looking to make more power but definitely do want maximum longevity/reliability.
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Old 01-04-2011, 04:21 PM   #353
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Your question about lean conditions at high loads. Consider a few things here.

1. Is the car actually lean at high loads? [...]

2. Is timing being pulled from feed back knock correction or other corrections during this period? [...]
Hey... thanks for the thought provoking answers! Good stuff. Answers to a couple of your questions:

1. Good question. It looks like it stays leaner longer stock compared to Cobb A/P stage 1 on same car, same dyno (2011 wrx, reported elsewhere on nasioc -- I'll post link if I find it). Considering lag in one's instruments is always a good idea!

2. My 04 was running 11 IAM on 93 octane on the factory rom! Zeroing the CL/OL delay fixed that. The 2011 is running 1.0.

Any idea how fast the counter goes on the 32 bit ecu? Does this have anything to do with the base pulse width table?
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Old 01-04-2011, 05:47 PM   #354
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I have yet to see the code (tune) for a 2011 wrx can you send me a sample? Email is seth@p3auto.com. I'm not sure what has changed from a 2010 to a 2011 if anything.

If your 04 was runing an IAM of 11 thats not great. The default is to start at 8, a lot of tuners set it at 16 though. You must have had some fairly high knock counts to drop the global timing multipler or not allow it to rise. I bet if you looked at the learned timing table you would see tons of positive advance in parts of the tables. Since zeroing out the delay table fixed your issue I will have to think it was a fuel related problem. To lean or to rich. My guess would be to rich to early in low rpm high load regions. A lot of tuners forget to modify the tip-in and pulse width tables for larger injectors. Zeroing out the delay sort of skirts around a bad tune (some times).

Pulse width in the CL/OL tables section basically means if the injector pulse width time exceeds whats in this table the transition will begin going. There is a counter that starts and the car will stay in closed loop until the counter or the delay is eliminated. If you zero delays once again this logic gets voided out as well as any other CL/OL timers since the delay will always be 0.

NOTE: Something I forgot to mention is that removing the delays or making them smaller will lead to less MPG and worse emmisions. If anyone cares, lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maxplanck View Post
Hey... thanks for the thought provoking answers! Good stuff. Answers to a couple of your questions:

1. Good question. It looks like it stays leaner longer stock compared to Cobb A/P stage 1 on same car, same dyno (2011 wrx, reported elsewhere on nasioc -- I'll post link if I find it). Considering lag in one's instruments is always a good idea!

2. My 04 was running 11 IAM on 93 octane on the factory rom! Zeroing the CL/OL delay fixed that. The 2011 is running 1.0.

Any idea how fast the counter goes on the 32 bit ecu? Does this have anything to do with the base pulse width table?
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:00 PM   #355
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Email sent.

The 04 is *completely* stock. Or was, until I started tuning. I think we may have had a change of gas here around late Aug/Sept. There were some rumors of undisclosed changes to E15 (completely unverified, totally speculative tinfoil hat stuff). Anyhow, the car lost about 10% fuel economy and stayed that way, all on 93. So I changed plugs, front O2 sensor, did a compression check, all good, no codes... and no improvement. That's what led me to look into romraider -- I wanted diagnostic tools. I was some annoyed when I discovered that I was running IAM 11. Eliminating the CL/OL delays alone allowed the stock rom to rise to IAM 16, but I couldn't stop there -- my "stage 1" rom is here http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=28&t=6689 -- the car runs great, IAM stays at 16, fuel economy restored, life is good.
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:03 PM   #356
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Thanks for the code, I will look at it later.

I'm sure you checked but the classic reason for IAM drop is boost leak. Even up here we only have 90 octane and stock WRXs hold 16 fine.

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Email sent.

The 04 is *completely* stock. Or was, until I started tuning. I think we may have had a change of gas here around late Aug/Sept. There were some rumors of undisclosed changes to E15 (completely unverified, totally speculative tinfoil hat stuff). Anyhow, the car lost about 10% fuel economy and stayed that way, all on 93. So I changed plugs, front O2 sensor, did a compression check, all good, no codes... and no improvement. That's what led me to look into romraider -- I wanted diagnostic tools. I was some annoyed when I discovered that I was running IAM 11. Eliminating the CL/OL delays alone allowed the stock rom to rise to IAM 16, but I couldn't stop there -- my "stage 1" rom is here http://www.romraider.com/forum/viewt...hp?f=28&t=6689 -- the car runs great, IAM stays at 16, fuel economy restored, life is good.
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:26 PM   #357
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I didn't actually know that (boost leaks = low IAM), but I did check all the intake plumbing, yes.
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Old 01-04-2011, 07:33 PM   #358
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Even a slight leak at say the intercooler y pipe or the throttle body hose is a major issue for a few reasons.

1. Turbo spins faster and works harder to reach boost target = More heat / hotter charge

2. Air that is leaking out is still being metered by the MAF = rich / extreme rich condition

As you know by now both of those conditions can lead to knock. Usually you can see the boost leak signs by looking at a shot from learningview.exe, all of the high rpm / mid to higher load regions will be pulling timing. << Not always the cause though for a view like that though.
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Old 01-12-2011, 01:58 PM   #359
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I will be going Stage 2 on my 04 STi this summer with invidia tbe and a tune. As far as the tuning goes do I need to get the Cobb AP and then a protune or can you skip the AP and just do the better protune?? Whats the point of the AP if you are going to protune it anyway?
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:14 PM   #360
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The Cobb AP has some benefits related to other features but when it comes to a tune if your going to get a custom one you really don't need the AP.

The AP does allow you to easilly change tunes and monitor(log) data from the ECU. Unless you feel you would have a need for the features the AP has I would save the $500 and put it towards other add ons.
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Old 01-29-2011, 02:14 PM   #361
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Alright, so heres the deal, my buddy is looking at an 02 bug eye wrx wagon with 125,xxx miles on it, the guy is asking like $6K for it. A steal right? He went to look at it last night and it has some codes, luckily he took my Cobb AP just in case, pulled two misfire codes, cylinders 1 and 3 are misfiring. I find it strange that both cylinders on the same bank are misfiring, what would be some causes? The car is bone stock, he said it was in good shape, going back up today to drive it to the mechanics for a brake and bearing check. My mind is going to a fuel issue?
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Old 01-29-2011, 03:10 PM   #362
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could be spark plugs, coil packs, injectors, bad fuel, blown rings bad compression, bad tune timing or fuel maps. good luck that should give you a start.
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:24 AM   #363
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I just picked up a 06 TR and the car was formally in florida. I live in Michigan and have noticed that the previous owner has taken of the firewall over the turbo. Couple questions regarding that.

1. Why take it off in the first place?

2. Should I put it back on and if so how important is it to do quickly?

Thanks for your help.
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Old 01-31-2011, 03:40 AM   #364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B-tons
I just picked up a 06 TR and the car was formally in florida. I live in Michigan and have noticed that the previous owner has taken of the firewall over the turbo. Couple questions regarding that.

1. Why take it off in the first place?

2. Should I put it back on and if so how important is it to do quickly?

Thanks for your help.
Do you mean the heat shield?

Some people take off the heat shield because they want to run a dp that the stock heat shield won't fit with. The heat shield's purpose is to prevent heat from the turbo from heatsoaking the engine bay and more importantly protects the intercooler from extra heat..

Mine was also missing when I bought my car this summer.. I just bought one ($60 I think) had it trimmed and installed over my aftermarket dp..

It's not a huge priority, but it does serve a purpose. There are also other ways of heat deflection such as a turbo blanket, or I think cobb makes an aftermarket heat shield or if you are decent at metal work you can just fab one up - there are tons of threads about these just do a search and I'm sure you can research your options..

Edit: if you do decide to replace the heat shield make sure you have the brackets the heat shield attaches to.. The major one that is usually missing is the bracket that is on the dp..

Last edited by kayetealynn; 01-31-2011 at 03:59 AM.
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:36 PM   #365
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Have you mechanic do a compression check to start with. Look for a large difference of 7 PSI or more between cyls. While he does that check out the plugs and see if they are worn or out of spec. Just keep it simple and start with the basics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 02SportWagon View Post
Alright, so heres the deal, my buddy is looking at an 02 bug eye wrx wagon with 125,xxx miles on it, the guy is asking like $6K for it. A steal right? He went to look at it last night and it has some codes, luckily he took my Cobb AP just in case, pulled two misfire codes, cylinders 1 and 3 are misfiring. I find it strange that both cylinders on the same bank are misfiring, what would be some causes? The car is bone stock, he said it was in good shape, going back up today to drive it to the mechanics for a brake and bearing check. My mind is going to a fuel issue?
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Old 01-31-2011, 02:55 PM   #366
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Quote:
Originally Posted by B-tons View Post
I just picked up a 06 TR and the car was formally in florida. I live in Michigan and have noticed that the previous owner has taken of the firewall over the turbo. Couple questions regarding that.

1. Why take it off in the first place?

2. Should I put it back on and if so how important is it to do quickly?

Thanks for your help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayetealynn View Post
Do you mean the heat shield?

Some people take off the heat shield because they want to run a dp that the stock heat shield won't fit with. The heat shield's purpose is to prevent heat from the turbo from heatsoaking the engine bay and more importantly protects the intercooler from extra heat..

Mine was also missing when I bought my car this summer.. I just bought one ($60 I think) had it trimmed and installed over my aftermarket dp..

It's not a huge priority, but it does serve a purpose. There are also other ways of heat deflection such as a turbo blanket, or I think cobb makes an aftermarket heat shield or if you are decent at metal work you can just fab one up - there are tons of threads about these just do a search and I'm sure you can research your options..

Edit: if you do decide to replace the heat shield make sure you have the brackets the heat shield attaches to.. The major one that is usually missing is the bracket that is on the dp..
To follow up...If it is the heat shield you are referring to and the stock brackets are missing, consider the SPT heat shield. It only requires one bolt mounting in between the intercooler mounting bracket and the intercooler mounting tab/grommet.

And if you do go this way, DO NOT follow the install instructions as it will have you taking the TMIC off and that is totally unnecessary. It can be easily fished in just lifting the TMIC up a bit. Do a search for the install shortcut.
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Old 02-01-2011, 06:09 AM   #367
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Would a flat plate HKS down pipe cause my car to overboost at the track because it is limiting the amount of air the wastegate can flow?

Car overboosts in 4th and 5th gear causing the AEM truBoost to pull boost settings back down to wastegate pressure. Do you think a bellmouth would help?
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Old 02-01-2011, 01:59 PM   #368
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I'm sure the exhaust plays a part here but its not the direct issue. Changing the downpipe may help you get more of what you want but you would have to try it.

If I understand what your saying then I would not blame it on the wastegate being a restriction. If the car was overboosting and your boost control could not bring it back down then you would have a wastegate restriction on something related.

The fact that your boost control can bring the boost down just simply means you need better boost contol or you need to allow it to go a little higher in the upper gear ranges. Fuel and timing may also be playing a role here because of the higher loads on the engine at earlier RPM regions.

If it was my car the solution would be to go back to factory boost control and let the ECU handle the adjustments. This is also a safer way to go. You could also invest in a gear aware boost control system.

I would also dump that downpipe. Any bellmouth or divorced pipe would be a nice upgrade.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brando5185 View Post
Would a flat plate HKS down pipe cause my car to overboost at the track because it is limiting the amount of air the wastegate can flow?

Car overboosts in 4th and 5th gear causing the AEM truBoost to pull boost settings back down to wastegate pressure. Do you think a bellmouth would help?
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Old 02-01-2011, 03:43 PM   #369
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I'm sure the exhaust plays a part here but its not the direct issue. Changing the downpipe may help you get more of what you want but you would have to try it.

If I understand what your saying then I would not blame it on the wastegate being a restriction. If the car was overboosting and your boost control could not bring it back down then you would have a wastegate restriction on something related.

The fact that your boost control can bring the boost down just simply means you need better boost contol or you need to allow it to go a little higher in the upper gear ranges. Fuel and timing may also be playing a role here because of the higher loads on the engine at earlier RPM regions.

If it was my car the solution would be to go back to factory boost control and let the ECU handle the adjustments. This is also a safer way to go. You could also invest in a gear aware boost control system.

I would also dump that downpipe. Any bellmouth or divorced pipe would be a nice upgrade.
Ok i still have the stock boost controller mounted just need to plug it an and route the hoses. But i would need a retune to let the ecu control the boost correct? Is the stock unit able to handle 21+ psi on the 20G?
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:09 PM   #370
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why not keep the down pipe you have and go externally gated?
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:12 PM   #371
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why not keep the down pipe you have and go externally gated?
Ding ding ding!
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:13 PM   #372
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Plans have changed. With the baby on the way i dont want to go externally gated. Just wanna get the car to stop over boosting.
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:35 PM   #373
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have the dump tube rerouted into the down pipe down stream, its been done and the noise is not much louder then when you run internally gated
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:38 PM   #374
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lol not just the sound. Dont wanna spend 500+ to get a EWG and new UP and dump tube routed to the DP.
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Old 02-01-2011, 04:51 PM   #375
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ok makes sense...so why are you trying to sell the gtspec headers and uppipe? replace the downpipe with a bellmouth or a divorced one, i think Trox still has a invidia divorced downpipe for sale, swap that out have the tune looked at to make sure things haven't changed to much...if at all, except for the concern your having of course.
your looking to have the exhaust free flowing and not getting hit with turbulence from when the wastegate opens
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