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Old 01-18-2011, 02:13 PM   #276
w2s2008
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a larger size rim and or tire will greatly reduce breaking efficency so if you put larger rims on your car breaks become an important thing that is usualy overlooked
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Old 01-18-2011, 03:04 PM   #277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w2s2008 View Post
a larger size rim and or tire will greatly reduce breaking efficency so if you put larger rims on your car breaks become an important thing that is usualy overlooked
well, i suppose that may be true, if i put the wheels off my jeep on my subie (31 X 11.5 15s)...i have a hard time believing a person could fit a tire with a large enough diameter on a subie to have much of an effect tho
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Old 01-28-2011, 03:48 AM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w2s2008
a larger size rim and or tire will greatly reduce breaking efficency so if you put larger rims on your car breaks become an important thing that is usualy overlooked
Only if the wheels you put on are 30+ inches, made of cast iron and wrapped in tires made of stone.

Where do you people come up with this ****?
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Old 01-29-2011, 05:21 PM   #279
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I'm sick and tired of people quoting this. Quite frankly, telling people to not upgrade their brakes when they add power is ridiculously dumb. When people add power they use it, whether it's passing people, doing pulls, canyon carving, swerving in and out of traffic, or even street racing (yeah, it happens). Saying that they should double their whp and not do any brake upgrades is asking for trouble.

Now, with that said, only dedicated track cars (or Alex Roy) need big brake upgrades. They are a complete waste of money for 99% of the people. Rotors, in general, are not needed. Better pads? Yes. Lines? It's a safety issue. It does help the feel of the brakes though. Fluids? Safety issue. In my personal experience this is the most noticeable difference in pedal feel over everything. Good fluid makes the brake pedal so consistent with pressure it's amazing.

Plus, I'd argue that 02, 03 WRX's in particular could benefit greatly from brake upgrades. I warped my rotors on my 02. I upgraded to WRX 4 pots with street strip pads and the H6 upgrade in back. Now, the feel of it was drastically better. Do I stop quicker? I don't know, I really wish I would have tested it before and after. Do I have much greater confidence in my braking system and brake later in corners? Yes, hands down. Plus I am no longer worried about doing repeated pulls (say, for logging), canyon carving, or track days.

Alright, here's my biggest issue with telling people not to upgrade brakes at all. If you do one high speed run, or even just pass one person, you can accelerate so much quicker with twice the power that you go much faster than when the car was stock. So instead of passing someone at 70 your passing them at 90, during a high speed pull instead of letting off at 100 you let off at 130 (or 150, or 160), trying to show off to your friends (or a girl) you decide to take on a muscle car on the freeway and do repeated pulls against them (or worse, repeated ricer flybys). I know these things happen, especially with young drivers.

So, how many pulls can you do with stock pads, fluid, lines before something breaks? A lot, but I have no desire to find out the exact number.
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Old 01-29-2011, 05:33 PM   #280
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So what you're saying is that people should upgrade their brakes to safeguard against their own idiocy? Stupidity knows no limits and will find a way to bypass/disable/destroy any safety measure you can think of.
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Old 01-29-2011, 09:42 PM   #281
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexblake
I'm sick and tired of people quoting this. Quite frankly, telling people to not upgrade their brakes when they add power is ridiculously dumb. When people add power they use it, whether it's passing people, doing pulls, canyon carving, swerving in and out of traffic, or even street racing (yeah, it happens). Saying that they should double their whp and not do any brake upgrades is asking for trouble.

Now, with that said, only dedicated track cars (or Alex Roy) need big brake upgrades. They are a complete waste of money for 99% of the people. Rotors, in general, are not needed. Better pads? Yes. Lines? It's a safety issue. It does help the feel of the brakes though. Fluids? Safety issue. In my personal experience this is the most noticeable difference in pedal feel over everything. Good fluid makes the brake pedal so consistent with pressure it's amazing.

Plus, I'd argue that 02, 03 WRX's in particular could benefit greatly from brake upgrades. I warped my rotors on my 02. I upgraded to WRX 4 pots with street strip pads and the H6 upgrade in back. Now, the feel of it was drastically better. Do I stop quicker? I don't know, I really wish I would have tested it before and after. Do I have much greater confidence in my braking system and brake later in corners? Yes, hands down. Plus I am no longer worried about doing repeated pulls (say, for logging), canyon carving, or track days.

Alright, here's my biggest issue with telling people not to upgrade brakes at all. If you do one high speed run, or even just pass one person, you can accelerate so much quicker with twice the power that you go much faster than when the car was stock. So instead of passing someone at 70 your passing them at 90, during a high speed pull instead of letting off at 100 you let off at 130 (or 150, or 160), trying to show off to your friends (or a girl) you decide to take on a muscle car on the freeway and do repeated pulls against them (or worse, repeated ricer flybys). I know these things happen, especially with young drivers.

So, how many pulls can you do with stock pads, fluid, lines before something breaks? A lot, but I have no desire to find out the exact number.
Nothing in this thread suggests that you should keep stock fluid, lines, and pads. In fact, it suggests upgrading those.
It says that BBKs are worthless for 99.9% of people.
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Old 02-01-2011, 05:30 AM   #282
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Got a quick question... rear disc conversion: Worth it or no? I am seriously considering an adjustable proportioning valve along with a few other brake upgrades (Pads and lines primarily). If I play with the bias, I should think the drums will be plenty for the car, even if I autoX it once in a while.

I have no problem with drums unlike a few guys I know. They have more surface area than discs and therefore require less force for stopping. They've been used for decades before discs, and the only problems I can see with them is not venting heat as quickly and potential water logging if submerged.

So could I be safe with just upgrading the shoes and proportioning of brake force?

Car is being turbo'd currently and many have told me to upgrade my brakes. Was thinking about it until I read this post, thanks OP.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:25 PM   #283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagular1785
Got a quick question... rear disc conversion: Worth it or no? I am seriously considering an adjustable proportioning valve along with a few other brake upgrades (Pads and lines primarily). If I play with the bias, I should think the drums will be plenty for the car, even if I autoX it once in a while.

I have no problem with drums unlike a few guys I know. They have more surface area than discs and therefore require less force for stopping. They've been used for decades before discs, and the only problems I can see with them is not venting heat as quickly and potential water logging if submerged.

So could I be safe with just upgrading the shoes and proportioning of brake force?

Car is being turbo'd currently and many have told me to upgrade my brakes. Was thinking about it until I read this post, thanks OP.
Rear disc conversion = holy **** yes.
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Old 02-02-2011, 12:43 AM   #284
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Thanks for the post, I really appreciate the info you put into this!
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Old 02-21-2011, 09:23 PM   #285
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very nice point of view
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:23 PM   #286
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Bigger or higher performance brakes, stainless lines, street/track pads are not inherently safer. Stainless braided lines can be a problem, expecially if they don't have secure mounting brackets in the stock line locations that are bolted in place. I know first hand what happens when a braided line has too much play and rubs on the inside of a wheel.....and so did the fastest corner worker I ever saw. The tire wall cushioned my crash when the line let go. In addition, most racing organizations will recommend replacing them yearly. If you don't want to be replacing lines yearly, stick with factory OEM stuff because, well, it is safer.

If you are not boiling fluid, you don't NEED a brake upgrade. Period. Running cars on the freeway? Come on. Showroom stock roadrace cars run in 100 degree heat where your longest straightaway is 1/4 mile long, brake from about 110mph then it's 13 corners cooking the brakes on every one of them. Stock calipers are mandatory there. 20 minutes a session for HPDE's and an hour at a time for an enduro.

I do NOT have an issue with people running larger rotors, better calipers, higher surface area brake pads. My point is only that it's not necessarily going to improve anything for you. Stopping distance reduction? Zero. Tires do that.

Carry on....
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Old 02-21-2011, 11:49 PM   #287
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^ Well said.

As a solely DD driver I can say I have NEVER experienced brake fade, even in the mountains. In a normal DD car, you really shouldn't be generating that much heat in the brakes, and if you are, its likely you need to stop riding your brakes. Even with a car that has more power, if you are just driving on the roads, I don't see the need to upgrade anything other than to replace the pads as needed.
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Old 02-24-2011, 04:18 PM   #288
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good write up. well thought out and addressed
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Old 02-25-2011, 02:28 PM   #289
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[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']Originally Posted by [/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']prometheum[/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'] [/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font][FONT='Verdana','sans-serif'][/font]
[FONT='Verdana','sans-serif']its a bit of an extreme analogy but you're still failing to see the correlation between tires and brake fade? RE92's are not gonna put as much stress on your brakes as Yokohoma Advans[/font]

Stock brakes should be able to lock up any street tire.


You worte back that stock brakes ought to be able to lock up any tire, but what pormetheum is saying is that when you lock your brakes, you put very little to no stress on them regardless of what tires you run. It's when you hit your brakes and they do what they are supposed to that you stress them, and he's right; RE92's are gonna put far less stress on stock brake, brembo brakes, any upgrades brake than Yokohama Advans will as a sticky tire is the composition of what makes your braking shorter.
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:18 AM   #290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagular1785 View Post
^ Well said.

As a solely DD driver I can say I have NEVER experienced brake fade, even in the mountains. In a normal DD car, you really shouldn't be generating that much heat in the brakes, and if you are, its likely you need to stop riding your brakes. Even with a car that has more power, if you are just driving on the roads, I don't see the need to upgrade anything other than to replace the pads as needed.
What mountains are you referring to? I see you live in MO based on your profile.

I grew up in N California and experienced bad brake fade every trip to stinson beach.
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Old 02-26-2011, 04:53 PM   #291
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I've been out to the Rocky mountains several times, Mostly through Colorado, but I've been through the northern Rockies too. I have been to northern California, but I wasn't driving that trip.

I always engine brake all the way down the passes, only touching the brakes when I absolutely have to. I've never had them over heat, never had them fade. Obviously having a manual makes things much easier, but I've done this successfully in an auto.

I'm not saying it isn't possible to make your brakes fade with a DD car, I'm saying that in everyday driving, there should be ample time to cool the brakes down to avoid them overheating.
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Old 02-26-2011, 05:15 PM   #292
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You could just gut your car and have 1 seat in it and throw out a few nuts and bolts that arent necessary to stop faster on the stock brakes WEIGHT REDUCTION FTW!
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Old 02-26-2011, 09:30 PM   #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagular1785 View Post
I've been out to the Rocky mountains several times, Mostly through Colorado, but I've been through the northern Rockies too. I have been to northern California, but I wasn't driving that trip.

I always engine brake all the way down the passes, only touching the brakes when I absolutely have to. I've never had them over heat, never had them fade. Obviously having a manual makes things much easier, but I've done this successfully in an auto.

I'm not saying it isn't possible to make your brakes fade with a DD car, I'm saying that in everyday driving, there should be ample time to cool the brakes down to avoid them overheating.
yeah i don't understand why everyone says you can't engine brake in an auto transmission...
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Old 02-26-2011, 10:05 PM   #294
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I guess they don't know what the extra numbers on the shifter mean.

True it is not as effective as a clutch but forcing a transmission to stay in 1st or 2nd can put a heck of a braking force on the car.
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Old 03-29-2011, 01:43 PM   #295
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Great read, thanks!
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Old 03-29-2011, 02:01 PM   #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnman View Post
This was not what your initial statement was. This is why I said you needed to clarify your post.

Now you are admitting there is a difference between a lightweight and non-lightweight BBK. Progress is being made...

Just make sure the initial post gets cleaned up, as who knows how many people rarely make it past page one.

Zero difference in stopping distance. Which is the point here.
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Old 03-29-2011, 02:06 PM   #297
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BTW, for the record, if you gave me a brembo GT bbk all the way around, I would rock that isht all day long


But I wouldn't benefit from it in any way as far as performance goes.
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Old 03-29-2011, 02:14 PM   #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w2s2008 View Post
a larger size rim and or tire will greatly reduce breaking efficency so if you put larger rims on your car breaks become an important thing that is usualy overlooked

the stock brakes are more than capable of locking up even 20X10s. Larger wheels is not an issue that requires more BRAKE.
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Old 03-29-2011, 09:45 PM   #299
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prometheum View Post
yeah i don't understand why everyone says you can't engine brake in an auto transmission...
Engine braking is bad that's a BAD! ....
brakes are for slowing the car down.... that's a GOOD!
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Old 03-30-2011, 01:02 AM   #300
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^^^^
Uhh wrong! What gives you that idea???

If engine braking was bad, why do most forms of commercial vehicles come standard with a retarder system that is SPECIFICALLY designed to do this and that the brakes alone on these vehicle are not designed to continually be used in normal driving and will overheat. Semi's HAVE to engine brake down hills when fully loaded, the air brakes alone will overheat and fade.

The only issues you could run into with engine braking (that I can see) would be syncho wear if you do excessive downshifting. The older carbureted motors could cause more cylinder wall wear due to pulling extra fuel in when braking, however this is not an issue with fuel injected engines which the idle fuel is precisely measured, and especially on newer models that cut fuel altogether when you are engine braking.

All that you are doing there is using the force that it takes to compress the air/fuel mix as a braking force, this force that is exerted is MINUSCULE compared to that of an engine at full acceleration.
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