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Old 03-01-2011, 01:57 PM   #1
CAPTAIN1N5ANO
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Default Can dealer tell if accessport was on car??

If I run a accessport map on my car can the dealer tell that if I put it back to stock before bringing it in?
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Old 03-01-2011, 02:03 PM   #2
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yes and no. They can't tell its AP but they do see a flash date. If you have an issue, flash car to stock and bring it in and they see that it was flashed a few days ago it make them wonder. Some dealerships are easier going than others so depends on how they are I guess if they care.
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Old 03-01-2011, 02:21 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAPTAIN1N5ANO View Post
If I run a accessport map on my car can the dealer tell that if I put it back to stock before bringing it in?
If they are suspicious they may connect to the ECU and can tell it was flashed. I had a ball-busting dealership do this to me when I first purchased my vehicle and wanted to pay them to replace the rear struts. They basically refused to do any work on the vehicle (even mechanical) since the vehicle had been modified at one point.

Side note. Anyone living in NW Indiana stay away from the Portage dealership. Go to the one in Merrillville.
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Old 03-01-2011, 03:07 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Haelan View Post
If they are suspicious they may connect to the ECU and can tell it was flashed. I had a ball-busting dealership do this to me when I first purchased my vehicle and wanted to pay them to replace the rear struts. They basically refused to do any work on the vehicle (even mechanical) since the vehicle had been modified at one point.

Side note. Anyone living in NW Indiana stay away from the Portage dealership. Go to the one in Merrillville.
Just FYI, but that's not legal. They cannot refuse to work on your suspension because you modified the engine. You could have called SOA.
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Old 03-01-2011, 05:53 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by talvai View Post
yes and no. They can't tell its AP but they do see a flash date. If you have an issue, flash car to stock and bring it in and they see that it was flashed a few days ago it make them wonder. Some dealerships are easier going than others so depends on how they are I guess if they care.
There is a lot of rumour and concern about this issue and the bottom line is that we have never found this to be true. There is no stored data in the Subaru ECU that the dealer can see to show that the ECU was ever flashed. There is no "black box" or recorder that the dealer can look at and say "AHA! You have a flash!". We have been inside these ECUs probably more than most folks and we just cannot find any evidence for this at all. I have a feeling this is something that some service writers tell people who purchase these cars as a sort of boogy man. You should use your AccessPORT with confidence and if you uninstall the AccessPORT your ECU is back to 100% stock.

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Old 03-01-2011, 08:03 PM   #6
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Default Can dealer tell if accessport was used

So if I use the Accessport on my brand new Sti, and lets say the motor blows due to a bad ringland, The dealer won't hook up a scan tool and say " Your car has been re-flashed so this can't be covered under warranty" (Assuming that the accessport has been uninstalled prior to bringing it in?)
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:14 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by CAPTAIN1N5ANO View Post
So if I use the Accessport on my brand new Sti, and lets say the motor blows due to a bad ringland, The dealer won't hook up a scan tool and say " Your car has been re-flashed so this can't be covered under warranty" (Assuming that the accessport has been uninstalled prior to bringing it in?)
Correct, they will have no way of detecting that the AP was previously installed. One thing they can detect is how long it's been since an ECU reset, so they often attempt to "corner" people into admitting fault if they notice the vehicle has not been driven since the last ECU reset (which happens when people uninstall the AP then have the car towed to the dealer).

Best regards-
Lance
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:39 PM   #8
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I was told the ecu recorded the number of times it has been flashed.
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Old 03-01-2011, 08:49 PM   #9
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There is no flash counter on the Subaru ECU. The dealer does not have the ability to use some form of scan tool to discover that your ECU has been reflashed once the AccessPORT has been uninstalled. I hope that this can help dispell any misunderstandings about how the ECU and AccessPORT work.

We understand that many users want to have fun, but would rather not have fun at the cost of a voided warranty due to some form of "black box" or flash counter. However, the Subaru ECU is not able to track such information. Once you uninstall your AccessPORT your ECU is 100%, OEM, Stock.

You can install your AccessPORT with confidence!

Travis
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:06 PM   #10
CAPTAIN1N5ANO
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Default Accessport info

If the dealer can see the last time the ecu was reset, Say when an accessport was uninstalled, Would that be the same as if the battery was unhooked and the ecu reset by that means?
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:23 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by CAPTAIN1N5ANO View Post
If the dealer can see the last time the ecu was reset, Say when an accessport was uninstalled, Would that be the same as if the battery was unhooked and the ecu reset by that means?
Yes it is

Regards-
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Old 03-01-2011, 10:42 PM   #12
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Travis,

if the car has been previously tuned opensource and now running accessport, can Subaru detect the change of the checksum if the "0x5AA5A55A" trick has been used for the DBW 32 bits checksum (located at 0x00FFB80 for my sh7058)?

thanx

Mart

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
There is no flash counter on the Subaru ECU. The dealer does not have the ability to use some form of scan tool to discover that your ECU has been reflashed once the AccessPORT has been uninstalled. I hope that this can help dispell any misunderstandings about how the ECU and AccessPORT work.

We understand that many users want to have fun, but would rather not have fun at the cost of a voided warranty due to some form of "black box" or flash counter. However, the Subaru ECU is not able to track such information. Once you uninstall your AccessPORT your ECU is 100%, OEM, Stock.

You can install your AccessPORT with confidence!

Travis
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Old 03-01-2011, 11:39 PM   #13
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Hmm...I've been reluctant to purchase an accessport for fear of voiding my warrant, but i might have to change my mind.
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Old 03-02-2011, 02:45 AM   #14
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I flashed mine back to stock when i took mine in last and the dealership didn't mention anything about it
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Old 03-02-2011, 08:56 AM   #15
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Cobb,

I know with the v1 that when you flashed back to stock it left a footprint of code still on the stock rom. Are you saying the this has been corrected with the v2? If the ecu is flashed back to stock with a v2 accessport, then the rom copied from the ecu that none of your code would be left anywhere on the stock rom? Not that a dealer would have the know how to do this. Just sayin....
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Old 03-02-2011, 03:12 PM   #16
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Hi guys,

Just to clarify a few points. We have never heard of or seen a means for the dealer to detect a previously installed AccessPORT. That doesn't mean that such capability will not be added in the future or that it exists now on newer cars and the capability of the dealer to access it will be added later. There are many ways for a manufacturer to implement a flash counter that would make it difficult to find (or not immediately obvious).

That said, the AccessPORT ver. 2 saves a copy of the existing ROM (i.e. ECU's image) before it flashes our custom ROM when you marry. When you uninstall the AccessPORT ver. 2, it puts the original back on. So, you are back where started and the AP does not leave any trace.

The problem is that if a flash counter did exist (as is the case with some other manufacturers), it would be counting each reflash, whether that was by the dealer or by aftermarket flashing means (ex. AccessPORT, Ecutek, or Open Source). So, if the number of flashes didn't match the dealer's records, they could make an assumption that you were running an aftermarket tune. Again, we have never heard nor seen any evidence that a dealer has this capability for Subarus, but that is likely how it would work if they did.

Bill
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:14 PM   #17
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Noob here. Just purchased a 2011 WRX and the first thing i did was come here and look for this exact question. After reading about how lean our cars run and how dangerous it is, or people believe it is, it almost leads one to want to use AccessPort or some other tuning method to normalize the AF ratio.

With that said, running modified software is grounds for SOA to void your warranty if something does happen. Catch 22.

Bill, you said that you have not seen code in the ECU that would show log the number of flashes. Can you tell us what years, or ECUs, you are basing this on? I would believe that you guys have good knowledge of what goes on in our ECUs, so if something was there, you'd notice it.
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:20 PM   #18
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Cobb is most likely telling the truth. Stealership is most likely bluffing.

Call their bluff, don't flinch.
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:25 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
Hi guys,
The problem is that if a flash counter did exist (as is the case with some other manufacturers), it would be counting each reflash,
Bill

Bill,

Identify the "some other" manufacturers. Don't be coy with us. Your patriotism toward customers is appreciated.
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:30 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by ecapox View Post
Noob here. Just purchased a 2011 WRX and the first thing i did was come here and look for this exact question. After reading about how lean our cars run and how dangerous it is, or people believe it is, it almost leads one to want to use AccessPort or some other tuning method to normalize the AF ratio.

With that said, running modified software is grounds for SOA to void your warranty if something does happen. Catch 22.
The dealership cannot void your warranty because of a certain modification, they can only deny warranty claims on a case-by-case basis if there is reasonable argument that the modification may have contributed to the failure in question.

Best regards-
Lance

Last edited by Cobb Tuning; 03-09-2011 at 09:34 PM. Reason: typo.
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:32 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by mrcoder View Post
Bill,

Identify the "some other" manufacturers. Don't be coy with us. Your patriotism toward customers is appreciated.
It's not possible for us to definitively say what every manufacturer does; we focus on the ones that produce the vehicles we support (in this case, Subaru).

Best regards-
Lance
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Old 03-09-2011, 09:50 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
The dealership cannot void your warranty because of a certain modification, they can only deny warranty claims on a case-by-case basis if there is reasonable argument that the modification may have contributed to the failure in question.

Best regards-
Lance
I agree, but in the dealerships sense, you are guilty until proven innocent, because they just wont work on your car. Coming from a VW, i know all too well about them not wanting to do warranty/recalls on a "modified" car.

Based on the graphs on your site, it is pretty much self explanatory: a tune is helpful to control lean A/F ratios. I guess i have no choice but to join the Stage 1 club.

EDIT for my ****ty grammar...
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Old 03-09-2011, 11:07 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ecapox View Post
Bill, you said that you have not seen code in the ECU that would show log the number of flashes. Can you tell us what years, or ECUs, you are basing this on? I would believe that you guys have good knowledge of what goes on in our ECUs, so if something was there, you'd notice it.
There's over 250,000 lines of code in a modern Subaru ECU, so it is difficult to say anything definitively. We suspect that there may be a flash counter of sorts in most 08+ Subarus as we've found ROMs submitted from different cars of the same model/year/etc. (and same ROM version) where a few bytes are different (in the past, there would not be any difference). We haven't spent any time investigated this as even if it is a flash counter, it would be irrelevant as it is stored in the ROM and the AccessPORT v2 backs up the original ROM when you marry and flashes that back on when you unmarry. I also have not heard about any dealer function relating to a flash counter. Regardless, it is not an issue with our product.

Again, it is difficult to say anything with certainty regarding a current/future flash counter especially when you are dealing with the later CAN vehicles. You would literally have to purchase every new Subaru every year and tear it apart spending hundred of hours reverse engineering every module in the car. Subaru could be very sneaky in implementing this type of functionality if they wanted to.

You can be sure that if Subaru did implement a flash counter and a dealer denied someone's warranty based on it, you would hear about it very quickly (especially on Nasioc). To date that has never happened. We would also argue that our off-the-shelf maps are safer in the later model Subarus where the OEM tune holds the car in closed loop well into boost.

Bill
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Old 03-10-2011, 08:35 AM   #24
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how much longer is everyone going to comment on this issue,read each cobb post carefully.its stated several times that subaru can't detect a reflash. no matter how many ways you ask it,the answer is still the same.
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Old 03-10-2011, 12:18 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by rallyracersti View Post
how much longer is everyone going to comment on this issue,read each cobb post carefully.its stated several times that subaru can't detect a reflash. no matter how many ways you ask it,the answer is still the same.
Actually, Cobb's statement is the following:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning
There's over 250,000 lines of code in a modern Subaru ECU, so it is difficult to say anything definitively. We suspect that there may be a flash counter of sorts in most 08+ Subarus as we've found ROMs submitted from different cars of the same model/year/etc. (and same ROM version) where a few bytes are different (in the past, there would not be any difference). We haven't spent any time investigated this as even if it is a flash counter, it would be irrelevant as it is stored in the ROM and the AccessPORT v2 backs up the original ROM when you marry and flashes that back on when you unmarry. I also have not heard about any dealer function relating to a flash counter. Regardless, it is not an issue with our product.

Again, it is difficult to say anything with certainty regarding a current/future flash counter especially when you are dealing with the later CAN vehicles. You would literally have to purchase every new Subaru every year and tear it apart spending hundred of hours reverse engineering every module in the car. Subaru could be very sneaky in implementing this type of functionality if they wanted to.

You can be sure that if Subaru did implement a flash counter and a dealer denied someone's warranty based on it, you would hear about it very quickly (especially on Nasioc). To date that has never happened. We would also argue that our off-the-shelf maps are safer in the later model Subarus where the OEM tune holds the car in closed loop well into boost.

Bill
This is far from them saying that the flash cannot be detected. Is it a big deal to me? No. Do i think that a stage 1 flash would hurt my car? No. Am i going to worry about it? No.

I would say that this could be talked about forever as long as it stays in this thread and is constructive...possibly even stickied. This is great information, from the source, and i appreciate that they took the time to answer our questions and not just give generic replies.

The only detriment to this thread is when people come in and say "Geez, this has been talked about before" or "The dealer cannot see you were flashed to a different software" or similar. It junks up an otherwise informative thread and has the ability to cause an argument.

Again, thank you to Cobb for the thorough answers.
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