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Old 02-27-2011, 02:53 AM   #1
biddaum42
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Default Head bolt replacement?

Do head bolts need to be replaced on a 99 legacy sus 2.5 when replacing the head gaskets?

Anyone have the torque spec and procedure for the heads and camshafts. This one has dual overhead cams.
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Old 02-27-2011, 06:13 AM   #2
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No, they do not need to be replaced. Some googling will turn up the torque sequence.
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Old 03-02-2011, 06:39 PM   #3
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They do not need to be replaced, however, it is never a bad idea to.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:01 AM   #4
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There's substantial confusion about wither or not they need to be replaced and it took a long time for me to sort out the truth on it.

The fact that they specify a "torque plus angle" leads a lot of people to conclude that they're "torque to yield" bolts and therefore need replaced every time. On the other hand, the factory service manual doesn't say anything about replacing them each time.

Turns out, they are torque to yield bolts, but they're not *THAT* kind of TTY bolt. Traditional TTY bolts are torqued until they stretch (yield) into their plastic deformation range. In other words, you stretch them and they don't quite rebound to normal. This is why you can't re-use this kind of bolt. It's becoming increasingly common on modern engines to get TTY bolts that are stretched into their elastic deformation range, meaning that you stretch them and they go back to normal when you release them. You can re-use these kind of bolts many times.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:15 PM   #5
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All I know is I went to a Subaru dealer to buy new head bolts, and the parts counter- person informed me that they would have to order them, it would take a few days. They also informed me that they don't stock them because when the techs do head gasket jobs, they simply re-use them.

I re-used mine. I didn't have a few days to wait.
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Old 03-03-2011, 02:41 PM   #6
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I've re-used mine twice now. stupid phase 1 2.5l
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Old 03-03-2011, 04:53 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jamal View Post
I've re-used mine twice now. stupid phase 1 2.5l
I just started a thread on why my head gaskets keep failing. I went through two motors in two days. I personally believe it's because I reused the bolts.
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Old 03-03-2011, 05:07 PM   #8
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^ i don't think that caused your engine failure twice in a row.
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Old 03-03-2011, 05:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prezarevo View Post
I just started a thread on why my head gaskets keep failing. I went through two motors in two days. I personally believe it's because I reused the bolts.
No. This is why:

Quote:
Originally Posted by prezarevo View Post
I'm curious to see what people think about this. I put together TWO motors. The first one a 2.5 D block with 2.5 1 heads. I used ebay "eristic" MLS head gaskets, no copper spray, and reused the head bolts. Both the head and block surfaces were cleaned with a quick skim of a scotch brite wheel. I torqued the bolts in the pattern as sugested. The second motor was another 2.5 D block with 2.5 3 heads. I used Felpro MLS gaskets. I forget what thickness they were but they were pretty thick. I did use the copper spray this time. Both the heads and block surfaces were skimmed with the wheel as well.
My headgaskets only failed once, and it was because they were the crap original coated ones. replaced them with OEM MLS gaskets and didn't have a problem, even after not checking straightness and re-using the bolts. Only reason it came apart again is because of a spun bearing.
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Old 03-03-2011, 06:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prezarevo View Post
I just started a thread on why my head gaskets keep failing. I went through two motors in two days. I personally believe it's because I reused the bolts.
Read jamal's post. Your gasktes failed because of the combination of cheap ebay gaskets and the shadetree "surfacing" of the mating surfaces. Until you get the block and heads resurfaced professionally, you're going to be repeating this job.
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Old 03-03-2011, 06:19 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prezarevo View Post
I just started a thread on why my head gaskets keep failing. I went through two motors in two days. I personally believe it's because I reused the bolts.
Yeah, you're a dumbass.

Seriously, though, your bolts weren't the problem, your technique and choice of gaskets were the problem.
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Old 03-05-2011, 12:05 AM   #12
Jake_S
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They don't have to be replaced, but I used ARP head studs when I replaced the head gaskets on my 99 Outback.

Jake
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:27 AM   #13
Tim25RS
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Originally Posted by williaty View Post
There's substantial confusion about wither or not they need to be replaced and it took a long time for me to sort out the truth on it.

The fact that they specify a "torque plus angle" leads a lot of people to conclude that they're "torque to yield" bolts and therefore need replaced every time. On the other hand, the factory service manual doesn't say anything about replacing them each time.

Turns out, they are torque to yield bolts, but they're not *THAT* kind of TTY bolt. Traditional TTY bolts are torqued until they stretch (yield) into their plastic deformation range. In other words, you stretch them and they don't quite rebound to normal. This is why you can't re-use this kind of bolt. It's becoming increasingly common on modern engines to get TTY bolts that are stretched into their elastic deformation range, meaning that you stretch them and they go back to normal when you release them. You can re-use these kind of bolts many times.
That's the first actual explanation I've ever seen about it - most people just say "yes you can reuse them" but can't back it up. Thanks.
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Old 03-05-2011, 12:51 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Yeah, you're a dumbass.

Seriously, though, your bolts weren't the problem, your technique and choice of gaskets were the problem.
Now tell me why the **** you think you think it's hilarious and laugh at someone who is trying to learn where they went wrong in doing a project such as that and take the learning experience to prevent it from happening 3,4,5,6+ more times. If you were serious about your choice of car and had care about any thing besides your ego you would have looked at this and admired the fact that I was willing to put myself up on the line for answers despite MY pride and ego. You claim i'm a dumb ass, No, I simply didn't know to not use a scotch brite disk, I simply didn't know that a little bit of oil could cause failure like that. Your "typical, overly used" comment is worth a penny. Flame away **** sucker ...just flame away.
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Old 03-05-2011, 02:35 PM   #15
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/me just laughs his ass off

Dude, start paying attention to the username on the first post of about 1/3 of the HOWTO or testing results posted around here.
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Old 03-05-2011, 03:10 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by williaty View Post
/me just laughs his ass off

Dude, start paying attention to the username on the first post of about 1/3 of the HOWTO or testing results posted around here.
As someone posted to me on this forum, "COOL STORY BRO" reversed "BROOL STORY CO".
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Old 03-05-2011, 03:12 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by prezarevo View Post
As someone posted to me on this forum, "COOL STORY BRO" reversed "BROOL STORY CO".


Does anyone know what this means?
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Old 03-05-2011, 03:17 PM   #18
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To the op of this thread, I apologize for taking this over and bringing this bitch chat into it.
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Old 03-05-2011, 03:28 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim25RS View Post
That's the first actual explanation I've ever seen about it - most people just say "yes you can reuse them" but can't back it up. Thanks.
I think the fact that people have done it and it worked is "backing it up".
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Old 03-05-2011, 03:36 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by prezarevo View Post
Now tell me why the **** you think you think it's hilarious and laugh at someone who is trying to learn where they went wrong in doing a project such as that and take the learning experience to prevent it from happening 3,4,5,6+ more times. If you were serious about your choice of car and had care about any thing besides your ego you would have looked at this and admired the fact that I was willing to put myself up on the line for answers despite MY pride and ego. You claim i'm a dumb ass, No, I simply didn't know to not use a scotch brite disk, I simply didn't know that a little bit of oil could cause failure like that. Your "typical, overly used" comment is worth a penny. Flame away **** sucker ...just flame away.
I think that until you can be confident in your advice you should be more hesitant to give it. The information you have been given should lead you to believe that it is not in fact the head bolts that are the problem. Therefore you should not be disseminating this kind of disinformation on the forum.

I am all for DIY and learning as you go. I was a member of this forum for a couple of years before I made my first post....simply because I didn't have anything useful to add. Don't take offense to what people say on the forum...they usually don't mean it to be offensive. Sarcasm is hard to hear when reading.

OP - I just did a headgasket job and re-used the bolts. 3 days later it is still fine. Will it hold? I think so.
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Old 03-05-2011, 04:39 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prezarevo View Post
Now tell me why the **** you think you think it's hilarious and laugh at someone who is trying to learn where they went wrong in doing a project such as that and take the learning experience to prevent it from happening 3,4,5,6+ more times. If you were serious about your choice of car and had care about any thing besides your ego you would have looked at this and admired the fact that I was willing to put myself up on the line for answers despite MY pride and ego. You claim i'm a dumb ass, No, I simply didn't know to not use a scotch brite disk, I simply didn't know that a little bit of oil could cause failure like that. Your "typical, overly used" comment is worth a penny. Flame away **** sucker ...just flame away.
The fact that you didn't know what you were doing wrong doesn't make it worth any less of a chuckle. And I'm pretty sure that Ty gave you the rundown of what you did wrong and how to do it right in your own thread.
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Old 03-05-2011, 07:46 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by geronimo81 View Post
I think that until you can be confident in your advice you should be more hesitant to give it. The information you have been given should lead you to believe that it is not in fact the head bolts that are the problem. Therefore you should not be disseminating this kind of disinformation on the forum.

I am all for DIY and learning as you go. I was a member of this forum for a couple of years before I made my first post....simply because I didn't have anything useful to add. Don't take offense to what people say on the forum...they usually don't mean it to be offensive. Sarcasm is hard to hear when reading.

OP - I just did a headgasket job and re-used the bolts. 3 days later it is still fine. Will it hold? I think so.
, Your rite. I am wrong. Thank you for putting me in my place as my useless information serves a no value purpose. Though "I think" or "I believe" is more or less an indication of assumption or guess. Now excuse my sorry ass as I tuck my tail and limp away from this downing situation.
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Old 03-05-2011, 08:20 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by geronimo81 View Post
I think that until you can be confident in your advice you should be more hesitant to give it. The information you have been given should lead you to believe that it is not in fact the head bolts that are the problem. Therefore you should not be disseminating this kind of disinformation on the forum.

I am all for DIY and learning as you go. I was a member of this forum for a couple of years before I made my first post....simply because I didn't have anything useful to add. Don't take offense to what people say on the forum...they usually don't mean it to be offensive. Sarcasm is hard to hear when reading.

OP - I just did a headgasket job and re-used the bolts. 3 days later it is still fine. Will it hold? I think so.
Few years on this forum or not, Doesn't mean you know your facts, You could have someone whos worked on subarus or cars all together since they were 12 years old and has the education. That person doesnt know every thing about cars. We all lack knowledge on EVERY THING. You could be on this forum for 10 years and read every thing about subarus. Doesnt mean its all correct.
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:01 PM   #24
T Wrex--OH
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Quote:
Originally Posted by prezarevo View Post
, Your rite. I am wrong. Thank you for putting me in my place as my useless information serves a no value purpose. Though "I think" or "I believe" is more or less an indication of assumption or guess. Now excuse my sorry ass as I tuck my tail and limp away from this downing situation.
It's the internet man. You learned your lesson, we had a laugh at your expense. But, you got the info you needed to do the job right. And by the way, cut that whole "cool story bro" **** out. No one will take you serious otherwise.
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Old 03-05-2011, 10:27 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by T Wrex--OH View Post
It's the internet man. You learned your lesson, we had a laugh at your expense. But, you got the info you needed to do the job right. And by the way, cut that whole "cool story bro" **** out. No one will take you serious otherwise.
uhhh...cool story bro? It is what it is man. Welcome to nasioc. There is nothing or no one serious on this forum, or even any other forum for that matter. Though i do hear subaruforester is a pretty sweet forum. **** happens man...and well..**** just happend. lol? As mentioned once, ya just cant seem to find sarcasm through type. smthn like that. Laugh a little would ya
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