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Old 03-10-2011, 04:27 PM   #26
Cobb Tuning
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Keep in mind that I've presented scenarios related to a flash counter that are possible, but, in reality, not very likely. The fact that we have never heard of a Subaru dealer denying a warranty based on a flash counter only reinforces the likelihood that it doesn't currently exist.

Bill
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Old 03-10-2011, 05:34 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobb Tuning View Post
Keep in mind that I've presented scenarios related to a flash counter that are possible, but, in reality, not very likely. The fact that we have never heard of a Subaru dealer denying a warranty based on a flash counter only reinforces the likelihood that it doesn't currently exist.

Bill
Agreed 100%
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Old 03-11-2011, 05:26 PM   #28
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a dealer can deny your warranty and you can fight it. but the cost can be prohibitive.

you often hear of dealers denying warranty work because of something you changed, like exhaust or intake. its really up to the dealer.

as to the ecu thing, i dont know about subaru, but supposedly GM has been pretty tough on folks getting their cars 'tuned'. especially the turbo diesel trucks, and also vettes. like all cars apparently a tune on a vette, especially an automatic makes the car run a lot better, but gm has supposedly stated they will deny warranty work if the ecu has been modified. and they can tell.

in the end its up to the dealer. from what i understand, the dealer gets paid for warranty work by the manufacturer, so its money in their pocket. which would lead me to believe that if you are getting charged for warranty work, the dealer is playing games and charging you more than they would get from the manufacturer or the manufacturer has taken a tough stance on warranty work, something GM has done because of their economic woes.

i wonder if cobb would chime in and tell us if Nissan can detect changes to the GTR ECU, which is one of cobb's target markets.
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Old 03-12-2011, 05:36 PM   #29
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Thumbs up Well said !!!

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Originally Posted by tolnep View Post
in the end its up to the dealer. from what i understand, the dealer gets paid for warranty work by the manufacturer, so its money in their pocket. which would lead me to believe that if you are getting charged for warranty work, the dealer is playing games and charging you more than they would get from the manufacturer
WELL SAID DUDE !!!

I work in a dealership for another manufacturer and I can assure you we have NEVER refused any warranty work because the vehicle has been modified.

First off - we want our customers to keep coming back! And the dealership WILL get paid for the work.
However, a warranty claim does not pay as much $ as they would charge to the customer. So, if you have problems with one stealership...go to another dealership (& please tell your friends on NASIOC).
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Old 03-20-2011, 08:16 PM   #30
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Ok I will chime in here being I have worked for a Subaru dealer as a Service Writer for almost 4 years, before going back to Toyota and been in the industry for 8.

1) SOA and only SOA can deny a warranty claim if modifications or abuse have occurred. A dealer does NOT HAVE AUTHORITY TO DO SO!
They can deny a warranty claim if the problem is not within coverage or the problem is not a defect( a cracked windshield or a gouge in a seat cover).

2) I have asked this very question to my old DPSM from SOA and he said yes they can detect if a vehicle has been reflashed with the Subaru Select Monitor 3. There are a few function tests that the SSM3 can perform on the ECM.

I have also heard that it compares calibration ID's for the ECU verse what it is supposed to have, but have yet to test this. I have heard that the old Subaru Select Monitor version can not detect this.

3) Folks, keep in mind that there has to be a reason for SOA to need this kind of info. Half the time we can tell if the car has had mods and it was returned to stock. This usually includes bolts missing, fresh wrench marks on the bolts, bolt marks where the bolts used to be but now in a different location(usually on heat shields, etc). I have never ran into a single instance where the car was returned to stock so well that my DPSM requested us to check the ECM.

I will say this though. If you are honest and up front with us, you will have a far better chance of getting coverage. Those that tried to hide it, always got it denied as nobody likes to be taken advantage of and this includes an auto manufacturer.

If they find the ECM has been reflashed or there are enough engine modifications found on your vehicle, SOA can remove the powertrain coverage. I have seen it done a few times. Every dealer that runs a VIN Inquiry will see all the notes and title info on that vehicle which includes notes from any DPMS if they removed coverage.
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Old 03-23-2011, 08:21 PM   #31
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Just FYI, but that's not legal. They cannot refuse to work on your suspension because you modified the engine. You could have called SOA.
This.

I had to fight myself at one point because the car was having problems with the rear axle's. I've heard of dealers blaming some problems on vibrations that an aftermarket exhaust produces...
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:26 PM   #32
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Ok I will chime in here being I have worked for a Subaru dealer as a Service Writer for almost 4 years, before going back to Toyota and been in the industry for 8.

1) SOA and only SOA can deny a warranty claim if modifications or abuse have occurred. A dealer does NOT HAVE AUTHORITY TO DO SO!
They can deny a warranty claim if the problem is not within coverage or the problem is not a defect( a cracked windshield or a gouge in a seat cover).

2) I have asked this very question to my old DPSM from SOA and he said yes they can detect if a vehicle has been reflashed with the Subaru Select Monitor 3. There are a few function tests that the SSM3 can perform on the ECM.

I have also heard that it compares calibration ID's for the ECU verse what it is supposed to have, but have yet to test this. I have heard that the old Subaru Select Monitor version can not detect this.

3) Folks, keep in mind that there has to be a reason for SOA to need this kind of info. Half the time we can tell if the car has had mods and it was returned to stock. This usually includes bolts missing, fresh wrench marks on the bolts, bolt marks where the bolts used to be but now in a different location(usually on heat shields, etc). I have never ran into a single instance where the car was returned to stock so well that my DPSM requested us to check the ECM.

I will say this though. If you are honest and up front with us, you will have a far better chance of getting coverage. Those that tried to hide it, always got it denied as nobody likes to be taken advantage of and this includes an auto manufacturer.

If they find the ECM has been reflashed or there are enough engine modifications found on your vehicle, SOA can remove the powertrain coverage. I have seen it done a few times. Every dealer that runs a VIN Inquiry will see all the notes and title info on that vehicle which includes notes from any DPMS if they removed coverage.
Surprised the thread basically ended after this post
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Old 08-11-2011, 05:38 PM   #33
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Comparing CalID? Usually, this is left unchanged for the opensource world. May be true for ecutek or cobb...

Mart

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackfang View Post

2) I have asked this very question to my old DPSM from SOA and he said yes they can detect if a vehicle has been reflashed with the Subaru Select Monitor 3. There are a few function tests that the SSM3 can perform on the ECM.

I have also heard that it compares calibration ID's for the ECU verse what it is supposed to have, but have yet to test this. I have heard that the old Subaru Select Monitor version can not detect this.
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Old 08-11-2011, 05:43 PM   #34
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It is important to understand that the dealer can certainly detect (if they choose to do so) changes to the ECU's ROM. This would occur when you install the AccessPORT (or any other solution that tunes the ECU via a reflash). When a dealership employee explains these types of methods to someone, they are most likely talking about this kind of detection.

The gray area is whether or not the dealer can detect changes to the ECU that have been made in the past AFTER the ECU's ROM has been put back to its original state before the aftermarket ROM was flashed. This would be the case if you properly uninstalled the AccessPORT v2 (or with other solutions, reflashed the original stock ROM assuming you backed it up). To date, we have not seen any credible evidence of this. Doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that it will not be added in the future, however. Some other manufacturers do have this capability, so it is not impossible.

The dealer could determine that an ECU reset has occurred recently by looking at specific OBD/SSM parameters. An ECU reset will occur when the ROM is reflashed. However, the same thing will occur when you disconnect the car's battery, so, it is certainly not a foolproof means of determining anything for certain (of course, that may not matter depending on the dealer or if there's evidence of other current or prior modifications).

Bill
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Old 09-09-2011, 01:26 PM   #35
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I am bumping this because I'm starting to do my research on weather or not i will be going AP stage 1 + 2.

Has there ever been a single person on this board who has re-flashed their car back to stock (with the AP) prior to a warranty claim which is then denied because the dealer states "your ECU was recently flashed" or "your ECU counter is higher than 1 (or 0)"?
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Old 10-03-2011, 05:11 PM   #36
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this is a great thread. i recently emailed cobb tuning regarding this issue before i looked through the forum. i appreciate cobb tuning's responses very much. very informative and honest.

i have a question though regarding returning the stock oem tune back to the ECU ROM. if everything is backed up properly, and the original stock tune is reflashed back, that would imply that any, if present, flash count information, would be returned back to the original number as well, correct? if this is the case, do other manufacturers that you've suggested that have this capability have a separate means built into the ECU componentry for this very purpose (ie. not stored on the flash ROM)?
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Old 10-03-2011, 09:07 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by cenix View Post
this is a great thread. i recently emailed cobb tuning regarding this issue before i looked through the forum. i appreciate cobb tuning's responses very much. very informative and honest.

i have a question though regarding returning the stock oem tune back to the ECU ROM. if everything is backed up properly, and the original stock tune is reflashed back, that would imply that any, if present, flash count information, would be returned back to the original number as well, correct? if this is the case, do other manufacturers that you've suggested that have this capability have a separate means built into the ECU componentry for this very purpose (ie. not stored on the flash ROM)?
Yes, manufacturers can implement a flash counter in a number of ways other than in the primary flash ROM and they can be very sneaky in doing so (making it difficult to discover ahead of time short of tearing apart one of every new year model car and reversing every sub-system).

Bill
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Old 10-03-2011, 09:44 PM   #38
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I commented about this earlier, but I had one dealership provide me a printout of the year (2007) the vehicle's ECU was last flashed. They didn't have any corresponding paperwork from Subaru that a flash was performed by them so they refused to work on my car.

And this was just to have the rear struts replaced.
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:39 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Haelan View Post
I commented about this earlier, but I had one dealership provide me a printout of the year (2007) the vehicle's ECU was last flashed. They didn't have any corresponding paperwork from Subaru that a flash was performed by them so they refused to work on my car.

And this was just to have the rear struts replaced.
can you explain more about the conditions so we know more about this? was your car modified? was it flashed previously with aftermarket software? was this a used car when purchased or was it purchased originally by you? details please.
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Old 10-03-2011, 11:54 PM   #40
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can you explain more about the conditions so we know more about this? was your car modified? was it flashed previously with aftermarket software? was this a used car when purchased or was it purchased originally by you? details please.
I'm the 2nd owner. I don't know how heavily the previous owner modified the vehicle, but the turbo heatshield was missing, the GBOD's were missing over the fuel injectors, etc.

I don't know what software it was tuned with originally. The ECU definitely wasn't married to an AP when I purchased it. The previous owner tried to put it back to stock and did a poor job since my exhaust bolts started snapping when I went over railroad tracks on the drive home. My guess is it was flashed back to stock since the CL/OL transition existed when I bought it.

Two weeks later after the ECU reset wore off it ran like crap. I took it to a local dealership to get the rear struts done and to see if they could find why I couldn't hit target boost. They called me a few hours later and said they aren't touching the vehicle since it had been modified and 'abused'. When I walked in I had a nice argument with the service manager who accused me of modifying the vehicle and altering the ECU software. He showed me a piece of paper (details are hazy now), but he pointed to the test they did that showed 2007 as the last time the ECU was modified, which makes sense since that's when I bought it.

At this point of my ownership I wasn't aware of any of problems as I was new to WRX's. I firmly let him know I was the 2nd owner and bought the car 3 weeks earlier. He quickly realized the 1st owner never registered with 'my Subaru''s website and became quiet. I stormed out.

I took it the next dealership two towns over and paid them over a grand to fix the problems and gave them the report the first dealership wrote up. I'm pretty sure that first service manager was fired a short time later--it's not like I was there trying to get warranty work out of them for free.
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:06 AM   #41
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Thanks for sharing. I'm hoping Cobb Tuning will chime in with some possible insight.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:33 AM   #42
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Thanks for sharing. I'm hoping Cobb Tuning will chime in with some possible insight.
The ECU's ROM image can change after the vehicle is released as Subaru makes updates/fixes. Those updates are supplied to the dealer who will reflash a car if it exhibits the problem solved by the update (or for all cars if there's a recall). The dealer can read what ROM revision is flashed to the car and if it is newer or older than the one that came on the car (and there's no record of the dealer flashing another ROM), then they can assume that someone has messed with it. So, likely, when the previous owner put the stock map back on there, he didn't use the original one that the car had.

With the AccessPORT v2, it will back up the current ROM when you install. When you uninstall the AccessPORT, it will flash that backed-up ROM and therefore return it to its original state.

Bill
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:44 PM   #43
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Sorry if this is beating a dead horse, but im guessing his situation is unique then?
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Old 10-04-2011, 01:01 PM   #44
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Sorry if this is beating a dead horse, but im guessing his situation is unique then?
The service manager wouldn't have raised a fuss over the ECU if the previous owner used an AP and re-flashed the original stock ROM back in before selling it. I agree with Bill that he most likely used an updated stock map revision that only became available in 2007. That's most likely how he was able to come up with that year. Since there were no service records to correlate the update he started the finger pointing.
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Old 10-05-2011, 03:10 AM   #45
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i wish SOA would just put it in plain black and white. that way there is no "oh i hope i dont get rejected" or "i hope this dealership doesnt notice". even if they said all warantee work would be denied, we would have an answer and know what we are getting into
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Old 10-05-2011, 03:17 AM   #46
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best way to solve that is go into it knowing that you are absolutely risking paying for any damages yourself. if you aren't comfortable with that, then leave it alone, imo.
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Old 10-05-2011, 03:11 PM   #47
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I dont have it here but SOA did just release that note that states basically if ther eis "ANY" evidence that the car has been modified they will deny the claim.

This more than likely refers to the above mentioned like wrench marks on the up pipe dp or anything like that.

Not likely any ecy reflash if there is a question there just state you unhooked the battery. Plain and simple IMHO
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Old 10-07-2011, 01:38 AM   #48
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Please, I,m from Brazil and my '08 WRX is a Japanese version. I've bought a Cobby AP, but it only works on North American cars. I'd like to know if is possible to change my japanese ECU for an american one? If yes, is it just change it or have I to change something more? Can I have some troubles with key code or something like this? Thanks
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Old 10-07-2011, 07:57 AM   #49
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Please, I,m from Brazil and my '08 WRX is a Japanese version. I've bought a Cobby AP, but it only works on North American cars. I'd like to know if is possible to change my japanese ECU for an american one? If yes, is it just change it or have I to change something more? Can I have some troubles with key code or something like this? Thanks
We would not recommend this. You would have to have the dealer reprogram the immobilizer and it is no guarantee that the USDM hardware would work on a JDM vehicle. Not to mention the off-the-shelf tunes (and even the stock USDM maps) would not be appropriate for a JDM car.

Prova of Japan used to sell a version of our AccessPORT. You might want to see if there are any of those on the market for sale and if you vehicle is supported. There are also other solutions, such as open source for Subarus that might be easier and more appropriate for your particular situation.

Bill
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Old 10-09-2011, 01:03 PM   #50
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I work on honda marine engines at my work, have their ecu flashing software and their tester.. everything... it lists engine hours... time in gear... time out of gear... how many times the engine was started... how long it has idled... values from every sensor min and max since the last ecu reset.. honda does not record date, time, or count of ecu flashing... new engines have ecu setting adjustments that in some applications must me re-flashed upon installation. I have no idea about subaru... but the only tool we have to see if someone tampered with the ecu or replaced it.. is if the numbers on the dash match the ones in the ecu... and we dont even care about it anyway..ha.. i figure those differences in code between cars are probably those values recorded(i.e. start count and ecu power on time) .. but that's just my speculation..
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