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Old 04-05-2011, 12:31 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by 09rexwagon View Post
I'll agree that a harmonious use of electronic and mechanical systems can work well, possibly great. However, with open differentials and 'well tuned' electronic systems, it's still not going to be very good. With open diffs, I feel the best way to do things is to adjust your driving: trail brake deep into the turn, use discipline in throttle application on exit and carefully and smoothly unwind the wheel with increasing throttle application. I feel even a well tuned system (with open diffs) is going to make you turn better by slowing you down as opposed to a mechanical system which lets you turn better while keeping forward acceleration. But good points on the GP bikes.
Yeah, I completely agree with you. Also, I think a torque biasing differential will work better with the VDC, and result in less VDC interference. This conversation makes me wonder if the more liberal VDC mode from the STI can be flashed to the WRX control via a Cobb AP.

This all brings us back to the question...

What Torque Biasing LSD's are available for a 2011 WRX?
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Old 04-05-2011, 01:12 PM   #27
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Yeah, I completely agree with you. Also, I think a torque biasing differential will work better with the VDC, and result in less VDC interference. This conversation makes me wonder if the more liberal VDC mode from the STI can be flashed to the WRX control via a Cobb AP.

This all brings us back to the question...

What Torque Biasing LSD's are available for a 2011 WRX?
Quaife and the cheap brand that you 'have' to rebuild even when they are new before you install...OBX? Anyway, both are Torsen style 2 diffs and they fit in an r160....not sure about front applications for the 08+ Trans.
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Old 04-06-2011, 09:52 PM   #28
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Ok im very confused. is everyone saying that in a sense the newer wrxs are 2wd... i mean with an open diff in the front and open diff in the rear with the viscus center diff your options of getting power to the ground are limited. one of your front wheels that spinns the easiest will get the power and same goes for the rear? please tell me im wrong and if so could someone help explain... iv read this thread as well as this thread
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/arch...t-1850658.html
several times and im beginning to get upset.
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:07 PM   #29
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there are 4 wheels ....and they are all driven by an axle. They are a drive wheel, there for having four of them, it's AWD. The differential is what allows them to spin at different speeds. When put in a situation where a wheel has less traction, it's an open end and this is where it has a disadvantage. LSD's come into play in situations like this and vary in allowed wheel slippage to locked diffs/spools.

A LSD also allows differential in left to right wheel speeds but having resistance to spin freely. Tightly packed clutch LSD, more resistance to speed difference and more when you apply engine torque to it as long as the wheels are on the ground.
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Old 04-06-2011, 10:49 PM   #30
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Ok im very confused. is everyone saying that in a sense the newer wrxs are 2wd... i mean with an open diff in the front and open diff in the rear with the viscus center diff your options of getting power to the ground are limited. one of your front wheels that spins the easiest will get the power and same goes for the rear? please tell me im wrong and if so could someone help explain... iv read this thread as well as this thread
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/arch...t-1850658.html
several times and im beginning to get upset.
Essentially, the STI and WRX are the same... since the Torsen type diffs on the STI only kicks in when there is a torque difference (wheel begins to spin), and the WRX applies the brake on the offending wheel, effectively giving the same result - conservation of traction. However, if you drive like a maniac for an extended period of time, the brakes will heat up some. Considering BMW uses this exact same technique is heartening.
If you are going out for track days, then maybe you need to install an LSD.
If you car is a daily driver, I think the stock system is pretty good. Just do some suspension work to help the traction out.

There is this diff - A cusco for WRX 02-11 - for an R160
http://www.rallysportdirect.com/Cusc...-WRX-2002-2011

There are many diffs for R160's from Quaife, OBX, etc, but only the cusco lists the fitment for a 2011 WRX. So, while it is an R160, I would assume there is a fitment issue with newer R160's. If I find out a Quaife or better and OBX $ will go into my R160, then that will be my choice. Something will be available.
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Old 04-06-2011, 11:09 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Midway View Post
Essentially, the STI and WRX are the same... since the Torsen type diffs on the STI only kicks in when there is a torque difference (wheel begins to spin), and the WRX applies the brake on the offending wheel, effectively giving the same result - conservation of traction. However, if you drive like a maniac for an extended period of time, the brakes will heat up some. Considering BMW uses this exact same technique is heartening.
If you are going out for track days, then maybe you need to install an LSD.
If you car is a daily driver, I think the stock system is pretty good. Just do some suspension work to help the traction out.

There is this diff - A cusco for WRX 02-11 - for an R160
http://www.rallysportdirect.com/Cusc...-WRX-2002-2011

There are many diffs for R160's from Quaife, OBX, etc, but only the cusco lists the fitment for a 2011 WRX. So, while it is an R160, I would assume there is a fitment issue with newer R160's. If I find out a Quaife or better and OBX $ will go into my R160, then that will be my choice. Something will be available.

Dont the brakes only apply (on the WRX) and deliver more traction when the traction control is applied or does this work when it is disabled as well. also that still does not apply more power to the wheels so am i correct in saying it is essentially a two wheel drive vehicle? im sorry im still kind of lost
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Old 04-07-2011, 12:29 PM   #32
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Dont the brakes only apply (on the WRX) and deliver more traction when the traction control is applied or does this work when it is disabled as well. also that still does not apply more power to the wheels so am i correct in saying it is essentially a two wheel drive vehicle? im sorry im still kind of lost
Well, the 1 wheel drive open diff argument is a little of a miss-conception.
The WRX is an AWD. each tire puts as much driving force to the ground as it has traction to do so. Regardless if the tire is spinning or not, it's still transmitting torque and power based on the coefficient of friction... static or dynamic. Any LSD just limits the speed/torque differential... some are normally open, others are normally closed.
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Old 04-07-2011, 12:57 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by 9an3qter View Post
Dont the brakes only apply (on the WRX) and deliver more traction when the traction control is applied or does this work when it is disabled as well. also that still does not apply more power to the wheels so am i correct in saying it is essentially a two wheel drive vehicle? im sorry im still kind of lost
I see what you're saying and technically you are right since there will never be more than 2 wheels getting power at any one time when traction is lost. However, since there are 4 axles, and when in normal driving conditions, all 4 wheels are getting some power at the same time. AWD is just that...all wheels receiving power all the time (except when traction is broken). Subaru is using electronics to control the power for one reason and one reason only...subaru's are becoming more and more mass produced and cheap!
haha
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:06 PM   #34
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So would it be an upgrade or downgrade to switch to an older pre 08 rear diff? For about $150 bucks I could just throw an 06 wrx rear diff in... what do you guys think about doing something like that... at least with the older viscous coupler in the rear I'd have the chance of getting power to three wheels .....right?
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Old 04-07-2011, 02:18 PM   #35
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The 06-07 WRX have 3.7:1 FD ratio. You need 3.9.

However the VC in the pre 08 WRX r160s really aren't for performance but for inclement weather driving. VCs transfer torque based on speed differential and are very slow to do so in addition to the fact that the VCs in the r160s are weak anyway.

What sort of driving do you intend to do? Autocross? Track? Why are you so concerned about having 2 tires off the ground?
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Old 04-07-2011, 03:41 PM   #36
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I have a 09 WRX and do not like how the central diff keeps shuffling power from back to front in low traction situations (with VDC off), is there an aftermarket central differential that could lock this in a 40-60 ratio or something of that type?
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Old 04-07-2011, 08:12 PM   #37
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I have a 09 WRX and do not like how the central diff keeps shuffling power from back to front in low traction situations (with VDC off), is there an aftermarket central differential that could lock this in a 40-60 ratio or something of that type?
whoops, mis read my manual
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Old 04-07-2011, 09:19 PM   #38
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The 06-07 WRX have 3.7:1 FD ratio. You need 3.9.

However the VC in the pre 08 WRX r160s really aren't for performance but for inclement weather driving. VCs transfer torque based on speed differential and are very slow to do so in addition to the fact that the VCs in the r160s are weak anyway.

What sort of driving do you intend to do? Autocross? Track? Why are you so concerned about having 2 tires off the ground?
09rexwagon,

You were recommending a quaife or OBX diff. Do you have any idea why the diff manufacturers don't specify anything past 07 for the R160? I've read somewhere that the differential case may need to be slightly modified for the Cusco diff.

Also, reading this thread http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ghlight=ratios
if this is correct, do you have any idea of the difference in compatibility from an 04-06 or 07 STI rear end in a 2008-2011 car? Just wondering if all the mounting, stub axles, and drive shaft are compatible.

Last edited by Midway; 04-07-2011 at 09:25 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 04-08-2011, 06:42 PM   #39
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whoops, mis read my manual
Sorry, what do you mean by that?
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Old 04-08-2011, 10:42 PM   #40
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Sorry, what do you mean by that?
I thought the center diff was 50/50 all time, but it does have a viscous coupling. I typed and posted a response, before re-reading the FSM, so whoops.


I'm just surprised you're getting that much power movement front to back.
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Old 04-08-2011, 11:53 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by 09rexwagon View Post
The 06-07 WRX have 3.7:1 FD ratio. You need 3.9...VCs in the r160s are weak anyway...What sort of driving do you intend to do? Autocross? Track? Why are you so concerned about having 2 tires off the ground?
Automatic 06-07 WRX is 3.9, direct swap into the 08+. Also 08-09 Legacy GT 5MT uses the 3.9 VLSD. But really only worth it if you get it cheap. Totally agree on the value of the VLSD.

I always spin the inside front on corner exit on the track. I've taken to letting it spin, I figure that will transfer some torque to the rear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midway View Post
09rexwagon,

You were recommending a quaife or OBX diff. Do you have any idea why the diff manufacturers don't specify anything past 07 for the R160? I've read somewhere that the differential case may need to be slightly modified for the Cusco diff.

Also, reading this thread http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ghlight=ratios
if this is correct, do you have any idea of the difference in compatibility from an 04-06 or 07 STI rear end in a 2008-2011 car? Just wondering if all the mounting, stub axles, and drive shaft are compatible.
The aftermarket manufacturers may have not tested their stuff with the latest hardware. The R160 is basically the same, you can swap them around from almost all other Subarus, but the case may have changed over time.

The STI, in additon to having different LSD technology, has a higher grade R180 diff. There are tons of threads about swapping one into a WRX. There are some compatibility issues and choices to make about what parts to swap, but it can be done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midway View Post
Essentially, the STI and WRX are the same... since the Torsen type diffs on the STI only kicks in when there is a torque difference (wheel begins to spin), and the WRX applies the brake on the offending wheel, effectively giving the same result - conservation of traction. However, if you drive like a maniac for an extended period of time, the brakes will heat up some. Considering BMW uses this exact same technique is heartening.
Well that is not really true for a couple reasons. First the Torsen type doesn't need any wheel spin at all to transfer torque, it is not when "wheels begin to spin" it is when a traction difference exists. That is the really neat thing about Torsen diffs, they are very quick to react. The VDC needs to sample some wheelspin before reacting.

The other problem with this scenario, is that the WRX VDC system couples braking with power reduction. I've driven with the VDC on to see what happens on the track, wet and dry. It will brake the inside front wheel when it spins, but it also shuts the power down so you bog. Any possible performance benefit is taken away by that, making the system not very useful.

Selective braking is not a bad idea though. I recall the great upset when the Caliber SRT-4 came out with the brake-lock differential instead of the Quaife that our Neon SRT-4s had. The SRT engineers pointed out that braking one front wheel could transfer way more torque than a Torsen can, being fixed at a bias ratio, commonly something like 4:1. And think our VLSDs are only moving 4kg-m (2.7lb-ft) of torque for every 100 RPM speed difference between axles. That ain't much.

The VDC could be very useful if it had a performance program that didn't kill the power.

Our crappy AWD with silly viscous center diff still gets us around pretty well. So much so that there are tons of other mods you can do before the lack of neato LSDs are really holding you back.

I am thinking lately that the handling benefit of AWD isn't in LSDs. The future has been laid out by Mitsu and Honda, it is about controlling distribution of wheel *speed* not just torque.
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Old 04-13-2011, 06:12 AM   #42
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_...is_.282008-.29


If you read the part where it talks about the Austrailian version, they seem to have included the R180 with the LSD.

Hmm.... This perturbes me.
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Old 04-13-2011, 07:17 AM   #43
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subaru_...is_.282008-.29


If you read the part where it talks about the Austrailian version, they seem to have included the R180 with the LSD.

Hmm.... This perturbes me.
Have you seen the price of an Australian WRX / STI? You would no longer be perturbed.
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:36 PM   #44
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So if you were stuck on ice, basically only 2 wheels would be trying to get you out? I gathered this because it seems one of the rear would spin and one of the front would spin, since they each are open differential systems.

Last edited by zamboniman87; 05-17-2011 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 05-17-2011, 01:01 PM   #45
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So if you were stuck on ice, basically only 2 wheels would be trying to get out you? I gathered this because it seems one of the rear would spin and one of the front would spin, since they each are open differential systems.
No, the VDC would kick in and you'd gain some motion via the ABS stopping the wheelspin.
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Old 05-24-2011, 12:24 PM   #46
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This thread has been a huge help for a new owner like me. I'm just now understanding how this system works. I have knowledge of what LSD's and VDC does but to read real world examples of the capabilities is what is really helpful. While I wish I could have afforded an STi, I couldnt justify its price given my means. This car is a perfect platform for me and a huge upgrade over my RSX.

If anyone else has an 08+ WRX and has experience pushing it to the limit, I'd love to read more about its handling.
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Old 05-24-2011, 12:44 PM   #47
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I always spin the inside front on corner exit on the track. I've taken to letting it spin, I figure that will transfer some torque to the rear.
I autocross my 03 wagon and used to get the front inside tire wheelspin when exiting a tight turn in 1st gear. Not only would it spin, but it would actually hop up and down. I had no idea that the wheel was hopping but course workers commented on it a couple times. I learned to not just stomp on the gas pedal during exit of a turn. It is an analogue input, after all. This really helped my times. In autocross, wheelspin in a corner can put you off line and it wastes power as heat in the spinning tire, not to mention it overheats the tire and probably the center diff.

But what eliminated the wheel hop (and bettered my times) the most was better dampers (went from KYB AGX to Koni inserts), an upgraded front sway (Whiteline 22mm adjustable), and 245 width Starspec Z1's on 17X8's. The tires probably didn't help the wheel hop issue as much as the dampers and front sway, but they all helped my times by an enormous amount. I beat everyone now. LOL

if you have enough traction (through tires, mods, and driving skill) that your wheels never spin, your open diff[s] become way less of an issue.

And yes, some wheelspin while launching in a straight line is fine. Note I'm talking about turning and accelerating.

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Old 05-24-2011, 03:41 PM   #48
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No I said the opposite. A front lsd would yield faster laps times than a rear.

08whiterex, I autox DS in my 09 with VDC always off and don't have the issues you descibe. I do have better dampers so that obviously changes the lateral dynamics in slaloming. Anyway the open diffs di present a challenge but it'll make you drive better if you can get around car deficiencies with better driving .
I have coilovers and a full menagerie of bushings. I also run slicks and have a good bit of power, so the inside wheels get really light and when you throw in curbing, it is quite the nerve racking experience.
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Old 05-24-2011, 08:50 PM   #49
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I thought the center diff was 50/50 all time, but it does have a viscous coupling. I typed and posted a response, before re-reading the FSM, so whoops.


I'm just surprised you're getting that much power movement front to back.
I tried both, with the traction control on, I did not have enough power to move. In fact, in would almost stall the car. Stupid system... if it I could lock it or have less wheelspin, I would not be stock for that long. I had bad tires but that just amplified the shortcomings of the AWD.

http://youtu.be/3S31SOjVlxM

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Old 05-24-2011, 08:53 PM   #50
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So for 08+ owners, can we realistically get a 1 way read LSD (torsen type) that would essentially work without any major modifications to other components? Would it play nice with the VDC? I figure if it's a one way, it should be fine, If both wheels are spinning the vdc should apply equal braking to both (if it decides to do so)? Anyone has one installed?

great thread, thanks for the information.
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