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Old 05-06-2011, 04:39 PM   #1
kpluiten
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Question Rod Knock - UPDATE: Parts List Forming - Your Thoughts?

UPDATE BELOW: I've started the list for the motor rebuild, I would appreciate all input, especially on pistons! THIS POST

UPDATE BELOW!: Pictures of the torn down doaner block with some strange bearing wear. What do you think?

First off, if this has been discussed in depth elsewhere, let me know and I will look there; it's not my intention to clutter this board with useless threads.

Background: I have a '97 L 2.2, 5MT. The car is a tank and has no issues. It is my first NA Subaru. I am really only knowledgeable about the turbo cars.

I just acquired a 2000 2.5RS with a blown motor. Apparently the motor was burning oil and was then driven until empty at which point it developed rod knock. I got a good deal on the car so I figured I'd pick it up and see if it could be turned into a decent daily driver.

I'm going to assume that the heads are pretty messed up too due to the lack of oil, but I won't know for sure until I tear it apart. I also have another 2.5 NA block in my garage with rod knock (core perhaps?).

My Questions: What is the cheapest way to get this car back on the road? Rebuild the lower end? Buy a whole new motor from a wrecking yard? If so, what should I expect to pay? What other motors might work? 2.2L?


I'm sorry to ask such basic questions, but I would appreciate any information you guys might have. I will be doing all of the labor myself, except any machine work.

Thanks!
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Last edited by kpluiten; 06-07-2011 at 04:20 PM.
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:01 PM   #2
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Ah! This looks like a good thread:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ight=rod+knock

I'm still wondering if it's worth it to rebuild a 2.5 short block with rod knock.
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Old 05-06-2011, 05:04 PM   #3
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- find one on the used market in better shape that was taken out of a similar car (beacuse of a swap, for example) or get one from a wreckers.
- buy a re-manufactured longblock from an engine restoration shop.
- bring your buggered longblock to an engine builder and have them do it up right (it'll be better than new).
- take it apart yourself and determine just how perfect you want the rebuild to be. maybe all you need is a shortblock, which can be done at home if you have the will.
- a new shortblock is like $2000.



those are just quick ideas that'll lead you down certain paths where you'll have to fill in the details....

cheapest would probably be to find a used, running longblock and do the swap yourself.


M

Last edited by mattmak; 05-06-2011 at 05:27 PM.
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:09 PM   #4
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When you buy from a wrecking yard, you don't know the history of the engine. You can get new bearings and rings for under 100 each, you can get the crank turned at a machine shop for ~100, you can probably even get it inspected if you ask nicely enough. Seal kit costs < 300

I rebuilt a shortblock a couple of years ago for 1K, that included re-using heads, a new oil pump, and a new clutch. The cheapest route is DIY, but it's not always the easiest/quickest. subarugenuineparts.com has pretty good prices, and check freadbeanparts.com(or some variation) for possible better deals on some parts. You don't HAVE to get a new water or oil pump, and you don't HAVE to get a new timing belt tensioner, people may offer other opinions based on ease of replacing should they go bad, but if you're handy you can replace those in a couple of hours, should they go bad.
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Old 05-06-2011, 06:21 PM   #5
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if you have to get new bearings, you might as well get a new crank. also new set of pistons and rings. which means honing and boring the block. with the seal kit you are over a grand and then labour for the block...

seal kit = $220
sti crank = $380
piston kit = $300
bearings = $120

that's all approx, of course, from what I can remember from fredbeans and subarugenuineparts


I'd still recommend doing all that though because if the engine builder really knows what they are doing, you'll get something better than new that will last even longer than a factory build.

if you start building a shortblock yourself, without the proper tools to measure tolerances, you are taking just as many chances as you would buying a used block.



it really depends on how much you care for the car. I'm sure you can get a used longblock (easiest in terms of labour) for a few hundred that'll last long enough for you to decide if you love or hate the car.


M
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Old 05-07-2011, 09:24 AM   #6
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To the OP what are your power goals and do you want to turbocharge your RS?
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Old 05-07-2011, 09:49 AM   #7
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I think, judging from his post history, that his power goals are "it runs".
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Old 05-08-2011, 06:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattmak View Post
- find one on the used market in better shape that was taken out of a similar car (beacuse of a swap, for example) or get one from a wreckers.
- buy a re-manufactured longblock from an engine restoration shop.
- bring your buggered longblock to an engine builder and have them do it up right (it'll be better than new).
- take it apart yourself and determine just how perfect you want the rebuild to be. maybe all you need is a shortblock, which can be done at home if you have the will.
- a new shortblock is like $2000.



those are just quick ideas that'll lead you down certain paths where you'll have to fill in the details....

cheapest would probably be to find a used, running longblock and do the swap yourself.


M
ok, I looked at used motors. It seems like they go for an average of $1000. Not bad, but I'm aiming for $500. I bought the car for $500 so that goal will put me at $1000 for my next daily driver. I want to do the job right, but perfection and power are not my concerns.



Quote:
Originally Posted by yarrgh View Post
When you buy from a wrecking yard, you don't know the history of the engine. You can get new bearings and rings for under 100 each, you can get the crank turned at a machine shop for ~100, you can probably even get it inspected if you ask nicely enough. Seal kit costs < 300

I rebuilt a shortblock a couple of years ago for 1K, that included re-using heads, a new oil pump, and a new clutch. The cheapest route is DIY, but it's not always the easiest/quickest. subarugenuineparts.com has pretty good prices, and check freadbeanparts.com(or some variation) for possible better deals on some parts. You don't HAVE to get a new water or oil pump, and you don't HAVE to get a new timing belt tensioner, people may offer other opinions based on ease of replacing should they go bad, but if you're handy you can replace those in a couple of hours, should they go bad.
This is the route I'm leaning towards. I will do the assembly myself I think. The machine work I will leave to a local shop. I intend to confirm and check all measurements and I will buy the measurement instruments I need to do that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattmak View Post
if you have to get new bearings, you might as well get a new crank. also new set of pistons and rings. which means honing and boring the block. with the seal kit you are over a grand and then labour for the block...

seal kit = $220
sti crank = $380
piston kit = $300
bearings = $120

that's all approx, of course, from what I can remember from fredbeans and subarugenuineparts


I'd still recommend doing all that though because if the engine builder really knows what they are doing, you'll get something better than new that will last even longer than a factory build.

if you start building a shortblock yourself, without the proper tools to measure tolerances, you are taking just as many chances as you would buying a used block.



it really depends on how much you care for the car. I'm sure you can get a used longblock (easiest in terms of labour) for a few hundred that'll last long enough for you to decide if you love or hate the car.


M
Why pistons and crank again? I can see rings and a hone, but pistons?



Quote:
Originally Posted by 2milehi View Post
To the OP what are your power goals and do you want to turbocharge your RS?
Stock car. Reliable daily. I have another car for power and it's a pain in the ass. This will be a suspension only car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper1rfa View Post
I think, judging from his post history, that his power goals are "it runs".
Bingo.
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Old 05-08-2011, 06:52 PM   #9
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And thank you for your well thought out replies everyone. Keep them coming!

Honestly, I am beginning to enjoy the NA and older Subaru crowd WAY more than the factory turbo crowd. Too many jackasses and bought cars (rather than built ones) in the factory turbo car group.
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Old 05-10-2011, 11:29 AM   #10
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OK, From my research, we have a two styles of short blocks on the 2.5L NA variety, Phase I and Phase II. My 2000 RS SOHC should be a Phase II.

My question is that I have a mystery shortblock in my garage I got for free from someone a while back. It had rod knock so it was removed. The previous owner *thinks* it's from 1997 Legacy Outback. This would make it a Phase I, but the previous owner isn't certain about where it came from.

In my reading, I found a NASIOC member who said that the way to tell the difference between the short blocks is by ribs under the "JAPAN" casting by the power steering pump. He said that a single ridge/rib under the "JAPAN" logo is a Phase II block. Double ridges/ribs under the "JAPAN" logo indicates a Phase I block. Can anyone confirm this?

My block definitely has a single ridge (Phase II). But coming from a 1997 Legacy Outback, this would not make sense. Unless it was replaced at one point.

What also confuses me is that all of the teardown of 2.5 Phase II motors I've found, the pistons have "half-moon" valve reliefs. My block has pistons with a large square relief with rounded corners.

I will try to get some pictures tonight.

Any insight into this problem? Thanks.
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Old 06-03-2011, 02:40 AM   #11
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OK, update:

I tore the free motor I got down to try to determine is it was a phase I or phase II motor. I was hoping for a phase II motor so that I could build it up and swap it with the motor (with rod knock) in my 2000 2.5RS. The back story with this free motor is that is was given to me by a friend who got it from a friend. The details are fuzzy, but apparently it came from a 1997 Outback. The owner tore it down when he got it and put new bearings in it and then swapped it into his car. He started it up and it knocked (rod knock) instantly so he turned it off and took it out. It ran for about a minute.

Either way, I tore it down tonight and figured out that this block is a Phase II block with the thrust bearing on #5. It has the 52mm crank of a phase II, but the pistons are the the square top phase I pistons (??? ).

I was curious as to why it had rod knock immediately after he started it. The bearings, which he installed brand new, were in terrible shape for only running for 30-60 seconds. My guess is that he must not have used assembly lube. What do you think?

Now the pictures:
#4:




#3:


#2:


#1:


As you can see, the bearings are shot. It seems that the bearing in the rod end (not the cap) on each took the brunt of the damage. This makes sense.



What would you guess caused this? Lack of assembly lube? Not priming the motor? Improper clearances? Improper torque on the cap bolts?
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Old 06-03-2011, 02:50 AM   #12
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A few more questions:

Are these in fact phase I pistons? The stuck out from the top of the block by about 0.5-1.0mm at TDC.





Should I even consider using these pistons with my EJ251 SOHC heads?


The skirts seem very worn with even a bit of scoring. Should I just buy 4 OEM EJ251 pistons new from subaru or reuse these? They are 99.0mm.




The crank looks to be in good shape with some scoring. I'm pretty certain it can be polished up and used with the correct bearings. What do you think? I know the pictures are not the best.










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Old 06-03-2011, 02:52 AM   #13
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Also, is this type of carbon build-up normal for wrist pins.




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Old 06-03-2011, 02:56 AM   #14
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The blue RS has a bad motor (no oil) and the green car is my current daily driver. I picked up the RS for $500 with the rod knocking motor! :banana;



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Old 06-03-2011, 11:00 AM   #15
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Have you considered swapping in a wrx motor, either 2.0ltr or 2.5ltr?

The blue car would be a sweet sweet candidate for a swap, make it a sleeper.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:15 AM   #16
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Crank and pins look like they will be fine, just polish/mic them.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:35 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kero View Post
Have you considered swapping in a wrx motor, either 2.0ltr or 2.5ltr?

The blue car would be a sweet sweet candidate for a swap, make it a sleeper.
I would love to, but the right totaled car hasn't come along yet. I usually find one or two totaled WRX's a year, but 2011 has not been good to me yet.

Right now, I need this car running for a daily driver. I figure I can build a reliable motor for $500-$800 and have a <$1500 daily driver 2000 2.5RS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RaceFaceXC View Post
Crank and pins look like they will be fine, just polish/mic them.
I agree, they should be fine. I'm ordering a set of measurement devices this weekend so I can verify the current condition of the motor as well as what condition it comes back from the machine shop in.

We'll see what the machine shop recommends for bearings after the crank is polished.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:43 AM   #18
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^ crank and pins look fine. I'd be a little concerned about the excessive wear and scoring on the pistons. It might be worth it to buy a new set of oem pistons for engine longevity.
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Old 06-03-2011, 11:51 AM   #19
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Upgrade pistons are not all that pricey. Heck, even a piston + rod package isn't too bad, especially if you happen to have a rotating mass weight reduction goal in mind since stock isn't exactly the lightest out there.

If you are replacing the pistons, you always have the option at this point to step to low compression ones and step right over to boost. Since you're already rebuilding the motor, it makes sense to do something like this at this time.
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Old 06-03-2011, 12:30 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger2011 View Post
^ crank and pins look fine. I'd be a little concerned about the excessive wear and scoring on the pistons. It might be worth it to buy a new set of oem pistons for engine longevity.
I was thinking this as well. The OEM pistons are $65 from Subaru. I have not investigated any aftermarket solutions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
Upgrade pistons are not all that pricey. Heck, even a piston + rod package isn't too bad, especially if you happen to have a rotating mass weight reduction goal in mind since stock isn't exactly the lightest out there.

If you are replacing the pistons, you always have the option at this point to step to low compression ones and step right over to boost. Since you're already rebuilding the motor, it makes sense to do something like this at this time.
You guys are a bad influence! I have a fast WRX, but its always costing me money (recently lifted a head at 33-35 psi overboost ). I bought this car with the promise to the soon-to-be-wife that I would not make this fast, expensive, or uncomfortable. I will be in trouble if I gain another project car as I currently have 3 cars newer than her one car and they all work worse!

So yeah, this will be a simple rebuild to factory specs. And maybe a delta grind...
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Old 06-03-2011, 03:04 PM   #21
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The pistons sticking up out of the deck scares me, I'm not sure I'd run them with the SOHC heads. But let a more knowledgable person chime in for that. I also agree that the cranks looks ok to polish.

Was there any lube or anything on the bearings when you opened it up? Damn. Also, when priming a new engine, pull the spark plugs so that there's no compression going on while you're trying to build up oil pressure. If you do end up buying new pistons, balance them, it makes the engine run quite a bit smoother.
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Old 06-03-2011, 07:15 PM   #22
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That wasn't rod knock that killed the bearings. Using phase I pistons in a phase II setup is what killed the bearings. Check the heads too for a little dose of hammering, courtesy of those pistons. I'm surprised the builder didn't feel the resistance when hand cranking it during the timing process.....

Source some std size 99+ EJ25 pistons (A's) with but don't buy any bearings until you know what you'll need. I've got a set of + .25mm main/rod bearings and a set of std size main bearings, should you need some quickly. I can't use them, or return them....


Jay
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Old 06-03-2011, 07:54 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yarrgh View Post
The pistons sticking up out of the deck scares me, I'm not sure I'd run them with the SOHC heads. But let a more knowledgable person chime in for that. I also agree that the cranks looks ok to polish.

Was there any lube or anything on the bearings when you opened it up? Damn. Also, when priming a new engine, pull the spark plugs so that there's no compression going on while you're trying to build up oil pressure. If you do end up buying new pistons, balance them, it makes the engine run quite a bit smoother.
Yeah, I was a bit confused when I noticed the pistons protruding at TDC. I knew there were some issues with the phase I and phase II architectures and mixing parts, but I was not clear on all of the details. I'm glad I rotated the crank before disassembly so I could see it first hand.

I did not see any assembly grease in the motor upon disassembly, but I wasn't sure if you would see it anywhere after startup. The motor was pretty dry in general, but it's also been sitting on the stand for months since it was first run.

Thanks for the good advice on priming the motor. I will probably be looking for pistons at this point. I'm leaning towards the OEM pistons because they are cheap, but I will investigate aftermarket too. Is there really that big of a weight difference between the same pistons in a set?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm View Post
That wasn't rod knock that killed the bearings. Using phase I pistons in a phase II setup is what killed the bearings. Check the heads too for a little dose of hammering, courtesy of those pistons. I'm surprised the builder didn't feel the resistance when hand cranking it during the timing process.....

Source some std size 99+ EJ25 pistons (A's) with but don't buy any bearings until you know what you'll need. I've got a set of + .25mm main/rod bearings and a set of std size main bearings, should you need some quickly. I can't use them, or return them....


Jay
Wow! That is good to know and it makes sense! I had read about problems with mixing and matching parts. Now I know the results. I just talked to the guy I got the motor from and he was there when the PO assembled it and apparently he did warn the PO about hitting the heads, but the PO was pretty sure a head gasket would fix the issue. I guess not.

Do you think this negatively impacted the rods or crank? Should I be looking for replacements for those as well?

I will let you know about those bearings as soon as I get a chance to stop by the machine shop and chat with them.




Thanks for th e help guys! Awesome demonstration of forum knowledge.
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Old 06-03-2011, 07:56 PM   #24
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Oh, and Jay, I only got the short block from the PO. He reused the heads so i can't check them for strike marks.
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Old 06-04-2011, 10:44 AM   #25
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The rods and crank should still be usable. The bearings took the brunt of it. I have a set of stock EJ25 pistons/rings I just pulled from a mid-milaged 03 impreza. I don't think I'm going to need them....but not sure if I want to get rid of them just yet.


Jay
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