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Old 05-25-2011, 08:41 AM   #51
Ying
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This is great info. guys. I've got very little knowledge on "how it works" when it comes to this stuff in loose traction situations, so coming from an 04 STi to a 11 WRX, I guess my loose traction driving style is going to need revision. No more blipping the throttle to whip the tail around in the right direction. I'm still not feeling comfortable pushing it, but as was mentioned earlier in the thread, I feel it's mostly due to the suspension. Dampers and front sway bar coming soon.
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Old 05-25-2011, 10:13 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ying View Post
This is great info. guys. I've got very little knowledge on "how it works" when it comes to this stuff in loose traction situations, so coming from an 04 STi to a 11 WRX, I guess my loose traction driving style is going to need revision. No more blipping the throttle to whip the tail around in the right direction. I'm still not feeling comfortable pushing it, but as was mentioned earlier in the thread, I feel it's mostly due to the suspension. Dampers and front sway bar coming soon.
Your method will still work in snow with VDC off. Tried that out this past winter.
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Old 05-25-2011, 12:39 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonklein611 View Post
Your method will still work in snow with VDC off. Tried that out this past winter.
Will try this winter
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Old 05-25-2011, 12:46 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ying View Post
Will try this winter
I always use an empty snowy parking lot at the beginning of winter to re calibrate how the car handles. Here's what i found:

VDC on: car understeers like a pig, adding throttle increases understeer

VDC / TCS off: car understeers at loss of traction, adding throttle swings the back end out.
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Old 05-26-2011, 12:58 PM   #55
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I have (possibly) a stupid question but I cant seem to find the answer. Reading this thread I sort of have an idea but its not direct.

Does the WRX have a different "program" for its AWD then other models? Also what is the max % of power transferred from front to rear in any given situation? Meaning, can it do 30F/70R or is it limited?
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Old 05-28-2011, 10:47 AM   #56
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I have a question after reading all this. I have a 08 and I autocross. I have a freind with a 02-03 rear diff just laying around. Where where wondering if we could toss that LSD into my 08. When I autocross I turn off the VDC because if I do not it kills my lap times.

It would be no cost to me to get this LSD the only cost would be the time to install it.
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Old 06-04-2011, 12:08 AM   #57
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Anyone know?
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Old 06-04-2011, 02:24 AM   #58
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A viscous diff is only useful in conditions where torque transfer can be slow and gradual. On the track it is almost useless, especially autoX
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Old 06-04-2011, 01:35 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by RaceFaceXC View Post
A viscous diff is only useful in conditions where torque transfer can be slow and gradual. On the track it is almost useless, especially autoX
This times eleventy billion.....a VC is only marginally better than a open diff and is best in inclement conditions (ice/rain) where there is potential for large speed differentials due to 100% slip conditions on one side or the other.

It's ok on track. Decent-ish on national level autox courses that are fast and sweeping like mini road courses and useless on local autox courses with lots of fast transitions and minimal steady state.
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Old 06-12-2011, 11:59 PM   #60
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My main concern is driving in the snow, both commuting and recreationaly on snow covered gravel roads. From my understanding, the performance of this car in those scenarios will be reduced from that of my 2002. Would you agree? Would a front or rear LSD have more impact in these situations? And like someone else asked, would the VSC need to be permanently disabled if an LSD were installed?
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:42 AM   #61
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i think alot of you are slightly confused as to just how the VDC system works on our cars...

when VDC is OFF, if you are in snow, or have severe wheel spin in a corner , and only 2 wheels are spinning(inside wheels) the VDC system brakes those wheels and transfers power. on pavement its ehh, but if pushed hard the cars tail end come out similar to a LSD.

in snow it feels like full LSD differentials front and rear because its easy for the VDC system to transfer power side to side as your on a slippery surface.

so if you think your 08+ subi is only 2wd because of open diffs, its not the case dont worry !
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Old 06-13-2011, 08:19 AM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRrexu View Post
i think alot of you are slightly confused as to just how the VDC system works on our cars...

when VDC is ON, if you are in snow, or have severe wheel spin in a corner , and only 2 wheels are spinning(inside wheels) the VDC system brakes those wheels and transfers power. on pavement its ehh, but if pushed hard the cars tail end come out similar to a LSD.

in snow it feels like full LSD differentials front and rear because its easy for the VDC system to transfer power side to side as your on a slippery surface.

so if you think your 08+ subi is only 2wd because of open diffs, its not the case dont worry !
Fixed.
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Old 06-13-2011, 10:56 AM   #63
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Simply add a KAAZ clutch 1.5way in the rear and you're good to go. Cusco if you want...
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Old 06-13-2011, 01:52 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonklein611 View Post
Fixed.

no no no !!


ok .....lets go at this again


when you hit the little button to the left of the steering column, it turns off TRACTION control, as well as STABILITY control. BUT not the system that gives a LSD feel to the car and transfers power from left to right.

that is ALWAYS ON , unless the ABS fuse is pulled.

so unless im missing something on how to turn off the system that transfers torque/power side to side when one wheel is spinning and the other is not....then when VDC (being traction control and stability control



consider this, when having fun in snow storms with stability and traction control off , how is it that all 4 wheels are spinning? no matter what situation im in? its because its transfering power from wheel to wheel, even with TC and SC OFF ..... without that system because of the open differentials, donuts would not be possible. and we all know thats not the case with 08+
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:07 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRrexu View Post
no no no !!


ok .....lets go at this again


when you hit the little button to the left of the steering column, it turns off TRACTION control, as well as STABILITY control. BUT not the system that gives a LSD feel to the car and transfers power from left to right.

that is ALWAYS ON , unless the ABS fuse is pulled.

so unless im missing something on how to turn off the system that transfers torque/power side to side when one wheel is spinning and the other is not....then when VDC (being traction control and stability control



consider this, when having fun in snow storms with stability and traction control off , how is it that all 4 wheels are spinning? no matter what situation im in? its because its transfering power from wheel to wheel, even with TC and SC OFF ..... without that system because of the open differentials, donuts would not be possible. and we all know thats not the case with 08+
From the FSM:

VDC Warning light and VDC OFF indicator light:

1. Alerts the driver to a vehicle dynamics control (VDC) or TCS fault.
2. Illuminates to tell the driver that the vehicle dynamics control (VDC) AND TCS are inactive. (when system is not failed.)


VDC OFF Switch:

1. Allows the driver to temporarily disengage the VDC
2. In "temporarily disengaged" status, the VCD OFF indicator light illuminates




VDC = Stability control. I'll agree that pressing the button does not disable ABS, but it does disable TCS AND VDC.

Front diff is a plain diff and is not controlled by the ABS system
Center diff is viscous coupling (can act like a LSD) and is not controlled by the ABS system
Rear diff is open and is not controlled by the ABS system

Last edited by jonklein611; 06-13-2011 at 02:59 PM.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:08 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRrexu View Post
no no no !!


ok .....lets go at this again


when you hit the little button to the left of the steering column, it turns off TRACTION control, as well as STABILITY control. BUT not the system that gives a LSD feel to the car and transfers power from left to right.

that is ALWAYS ON , unless the ABS fuse is pulled.

so unless im missing something on how to turn off the system that transfers torque/power side to side when one wheel is spinning and the other is not....then when VDC (being traction control and stability control



consider this, when having fun in snow storms with stability and traction control off , how is it that all 4 wheels are spinning? no matter what situation im in? its because its transfering power from wheel to wheel, even with TC and SC OFF ..... without that system because of the open differentials, donuts would not be possible. and we all know thats not the case with 08+
Nope, on the WRX, if the button is selected and the light comes on, that means no traction or stability control and no independent application of braking via ABS. However, standard ABS will still work.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:19 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by 09rexwagon View Post
Nope, on the WRX, if the button is selected and the light comes on, that means no traction or stability control and no independent application of braking via ABS. However, standard ABS will still work.


thats just absolutely false im sorry, i know your not a noob to subarus but its just untrue.

although it will not independently brake a wheel for stability control reasons, it will brake individual wheels to transfer power, but in no way does it act like a traction control.

my proof?


on an extremely steep up hill in the dead of winter, it was far below freezing and on one side of the road in my lane was a GIANT patch of ice from running water or something, i stopped on the incline on the ice with ONLY my front right and rear right tires on the ice, the other side was on pavement, i disabled TC and SC via button left of steering wheel, and i tried going up the hill.

the result was massive wheelspin, and then the wrxs system independently hit the brakes (i could audibly hear it) on the right tires, and then i went happily up the very steep hill because it transfered power to the wheels with traction. this was ALL with stability and traction control OFF, like stated before.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:20 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonklein611 View Post
From the FSM:

VDC Warning light and VDC OFF indicator light:

1. Alerts the driver to a vehicle dynamics control (VDC) or TCS fault.
2. Illuminates to tell the driver that the vehicle dynamics control (VDC) AND TCS are inactive. (when system is not failed.)


VDC OFF Switch:

1. Allows the driver to temporarily disengage the VDC
2. In "temporarily disengaged" status, the VCD OFF indicator light illuminates




VDC = Stability control. I'll agree that pressing the button does not disable ABS, but it does disable TCS AND VDC.

Front diff open
Center diff is viscous coupling (can act like a LSD) and is not controlled by the ABS system
Rear diff is open and is not controlled by the ABS system
.........

Last edited by WRrexu; 06-13-2011 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:27 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WRrexu View Post
thats just absolutely false im sorry, i know your not a noob to subarus but its just untrue.

although it will not independently brake a wheel for stability control reasons, it will brake individual wheels to transfer power, but in no way does it act like a traction control.

my proof?


on an extremely steep up hill in the dead of winter, it was far below freezing and on one side of the road in my lane was a GIANT patch of ice from running water or something, i stopped on the incline on the ice with ONLY my front right and rear right tires on the ice, the other side was on pavement, i disabled TC and SC via button left of steering wheel, and i tried going up the hill.

the result was massive wheelspin, and then the wrxs system independently hit the brakes (i could audibly hear it) on the right tires, and then i went happily up the very steep hill because it transfered power to the wheels with traction. this was ALL with stability and traction control OFF, like stated before.
If that's the case, then your car is malfunctioning.
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Old 06-13-2011, 02:37 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 09rexwagon View Post
If that's the case, then your car is malfunctioning.
it is not...how do you think this was done ?


and this




what you are saying is that when that button is pushed our cars become 2wd because of open front and rear diffs, and that just makes no sense.

im sorry you feel you think you are right but you are not....
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:01 PM   #71
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Corrected my post, the FSM jumps between the various sections / models. However, the VDC function stays the same as I posted earlier. Pushing the button turns off VDC and TCS, but does not disable ABS.

You still have a viscous center diff to route power back to front.



I can't watch youtubez due to the filter, so I'll take a look once I get home.
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:08 PM   #72
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VDC OFF SWITCH

A switch which allows the driver to temporarily disengage VDC control.

In some occasions, better results are obtained by canceling the VDC to allow the drive wheels to slip for a certain amount:

* When starting the vehicle on icy or unpaved, steep uphill roads.
* When escaping from mud or snow when the wheels are caught in them.
* When the VDC OFF switch is pressed while the engine is running, the VDC OFF indicator light in the combination meter illuminates, and VDC control is temporarily disengaged. When the VDC OFF switch is pressed again, the VDC OFF indicator light turns off and the system returns to "engaged" status. (Temporarily disengaged status and engaged status are altered each time the switch is pressed.)
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:17 PM   #73
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i give up, nobody is catching my drift, no pun intended
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:19 PM   #74
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What is there to catch? You're claiming that when you hit the VDC button, that it does NOT disable VDC.

I've show you multiple times, that is not true.

Here, I'll even break it down by model:

Vehicle Dynamics Control

OFF switch (except STI) Pressing the switch to deactivate the Vehicle Dynamics Control system can facilitate the following operations:

. a standing start on a steeply sloping road with a snowy, gravel-covered, or otherwise slippery surface
. extrication of the vehicle when its wheels are stuck in mud or deep snow

When the switch is pressed during engine operation, the Vehicle Dynamics Control OFF indicator light “ ” on the combination meter illuminates. The Vehicle Dynamics Control system will be deactivated and the vehicle will behave like a model not equipped with the Vehicle Dynamics Control system. When the switch is pressed again to reactivate the Vehicle Dynamics Control system, the Vehicle Dynamics Control OFF indicator light “ ” turns off. With the Vehicle Dynamics Control system deactivated, traction and stability enhancement offered by Vehicle Dynamics Control system is unavailable. Therefore you should not deactivate the Vehicle Dynamics Control system except under above-mentioned situations.

NOTE
. When the switch has been pressed to deactivate the Vehicle Dynamics Control system, the Vehicle Dynamics Control system automatically reactivates itself the next time the ignition switch is turned to the “LOCK” position and the engine is restarted.
. If the switch is held down for 10 seconds or longer, the indicator light turns off, the Vehicle Dynamics Control system is activated, and the system ignores any further pressing of the switch. To make the switch usable again, turn the ignition switch to the “LOCK” position and restart the engine.
. When the switch is pressed to deactivate the Vehicle Dynamics Control system, the vehicle’s running performance is comparable with that of a vehicle that does not have a Vehicle Dynamics Control system. Do not deactivate the Vehicle Dynamics Control system except when absolutely necessary.
. Even when the Vehicle Dynamics Control system is deactivated, components of the brake control system may still activate. When the brake control system is activated, the Vehicle Dynamics Control operation indicator light illuminates.


Vehicle Dynamics Control mode switch (STI)

When the switch is pressed briefly or for more than approximately 3 seconds during engine operation, the mode of the Vehicle Dynamics Control System will be changed.

! Vehicle Dynamics Control mode
When the ignition switch is on, this mode is selected.
This mode enables all controls for ABS, the Traction Control System, and the Vehicle Dynamics Control system. Select this mode for most driving situations. When this mode is selected, the indicator light “ ” on the combination meter turns off.

! Traction mode
This mode restricts the functions of the Traction Control System and Vehicle Dynamics Control system and thus delays utilizing their functions as a reaction to vehicle behavior in comparison with the Vehicle Dynamics Control mode. This mode should be used in driving situations where the vehicle dynamic performance will improve without decreasing engine torque control. When the switch is pressed briefly during engine operation, the indicator light “ ” on the combination meter illuminates in green. When the switch is pressed again to reactivate the Vehicle Dynamics Control system, the indicator light “ ” turns off.


! Vehicle Dynamics Control OFF mode

This mode allows only the ABS control.

This mode should be used in an emergency situation such as getting out of snow or mud.

When the switch is pressed for more than approximately 3 seconds during engine operation, the indicator light “ ” on the combination meter illuminates in yellow. When the switch is pressed again to reactivate the Vehicle Dynamics Control system, the indicator light “ ” turns off.

NOTE

. When a mode other than the Vehicle Dynamics Control mode is selected, the Vehicle Dynamics Control system automatically reactivates itself the next time the ignition switch is turned to the “LOCK” position and the engine is restarted.

. If the switch is held down for 10 seconds or longer, the indicator light turns off, the Vehicle Dynamics Control system is activated, and the system ignores any further pressing of the switch. To make the switch usable again, turn the ignition switch to the “LOCK” position and restart the engine.

. When the Vehicle Dynamics Control OFF mode is selected, the vehicle’s running performance is comparable with that of a vehicle that does not have a Vehicle Dynamics Control system. Do not deactivate the Vehicle Dynamics Control system except when absolutely necessary.

. Even when the Vehicle Dynamics Control OFF mode is selected, components of the brake control system may still activate. When the brake control system is activated, the Vehicle Dynamics Control operation indicator light illuminates.



Now what you have been experiencing is that last bullet point. ABS can still come in and do all sorts of stuff, but it is not the VDC system. It's not using any of the VDC inputs, simply the ABS system inputs.

Last edited by jonklein611; 06-13-2011 at 03:30 PM.
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Old 06-13-2011, 03:55 PM   #75
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Some "Stabilitly/Traction control" systems may flash a alight saying it's off, but really it is NOT off. That's what I wonder if Subaru is doing that as well. If you really want to see, try unhooking an ABS sensor from a corner and pulling the ABS fuse. Then the system will not work at all and you can see the open diff in all it's glory doing what it does best.
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