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Old 12-19-2010, 04:53 PM   #101
Vlad
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yes, dampers.
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Old 12-20-2010, 01:06 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MMWRX View Post
So what are those things on the rails? Fuel dampers?
Dampers is my guess too.
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Old 12-20-2010, 09:40 AM   #103
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Just a little cold weather reminder, Check all of your connections after it gets cold out. I found one of mine spitting gas out, after a half turn on the clamp it stopped. I installed everything when it was about 70* and when it dropped to 10* it started doing it after startup. Once warmed up it would stop, just something to watch out for.
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Old 12-20-2010, 05:29 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xdarkn3ss View Post

anyone remove those 2 black things in the top right of the pic at the end of the hoses
local shop told me you can remove those to clean up the engine bay a little
they are to maintain pressure he said but not really needed
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Old 12-21-2010, 12:11 AM   #105
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I believe those are dampers. I actually went out of my way to keep one. I would have kept both, but the other was tightly coupled to the regulator. I had some weird fueling issues with my old setup (stock side-feed rails, Perrin 816 injectors) which I suspect were related to resonance in the fuel lines, so I wasn't about to throw them out.

I don't know how to measure their effect, but when I was running the stock FPR, relocated with some extra hose, you could feel the lines pulsing in your hand very strongly on the 'engine' side of the regulator/dampers but just barely on the 'firewall' side of the regulator/dampers.
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:18 PM   #106
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so what if i just removed the return one and kepted the supply one
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Old 01-02-2011, 03:28 PM   #107
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I would pipe in a fuel pressure gauge, permanenetly, look at the readings before and after removing the one dampener.
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Old 01-02-2011, 07:45 PM   #108
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Where do I find this gauge
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Old 01-02-2011, 10:12 PM   #109
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Autometer has one. Glowshift too.

Fastest way to find a fuel pressure gauge is to go to a gauge specialized site, such as www.egauges.com
Cheapest is to not remove any dampener.

Basically, the fuel dampener prevents pressure fluctuations in the system.
Some people on the forum brought up that the dampener prevents the formation of a low pressure area in the OEM fuel rail.
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Old 01-02-2011, 10:23 PM   #110
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Sounds like to much work I'll just leave them in thanks
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Old 01-03-2011, 12:33 AM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
I would pipe in a fuel pressure gauge, permanenetly, look at the readings before and after removing the one dampener.
I suspect that the dampers are there to soak up pulses that result from injectors opening and closing. It's possible (and probable, I think) that these happen too rapidly for the fuel pressure gauge to show them.

But if anyone tries this, I'd love to know what you find, either way.
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Old 01-03-2011, 08:51 AM   #112
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Not many people run fuel pressure gauges.
Even in the hot rod world, they run gauges locally, at the rail and you cannot monitor them during driving conditions.

Recently, someone that started running one, posted about some fluctuating readings at the track and (like so many times) got diregarded by others that don't run a gauge anyway...

You're right about injector pulsations, but what I was suggesting before, namely the low pressure area is more like a wave, that has a much lower frequency than the injector pulsations, and somehow remains localized at the rail for sometime. Be this the case, your gauge would have a normal reading, then as you turn hard, that low pressure bubble hits the sending unit (adjacent to the rail) and you see a fluctuation.

I intend to run an Omori oil pressure gauge, that I want to adapt for fuel pressure. Sounds straightforward, but I learned that fuel is very corrosive to transmitters. Nobody has DATA that they're willing to share, as far as how many months it takes to kill a oil pressure transmitter, so, there's one way to find out..

I'm not thinking to run a gauge because of dampers, I'm keeping mine..
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Old 03-28-2011, 02:21 PM   #113
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just for clarification. when looking at the factory fuel rails on the drivers side. the upper line is supply, and the lower is return (or supply to the pass side however you want to look at it). ive had these appart for over a month, and when i did the mod saturday i got a little hung up. and i couldnt tell 100% from the picture.
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Old 06-12-2011, 09:31 AM   #114
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awesome!
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Old 07-29-2011, 05:07 PM   #115
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I know this is a really old thread, but what was the final call on this? Is it a good idea and beneficial? If so, did anyone ever have a detailed writeup on the final setup? Sorry if I'm just retarded and overlooked it. Thanks.

-Ben
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Old 07-29-2011, 05:18 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsholt21 View Post
I know this is a really old thread, but what was the final call on this? Is it a good idea and beneficial? If so, did anyone ever have a detailed writeup on the final setup? Sorry if I'm just retarded and overlooked it. Thanks.

-Ben
To my knowledge no one has ever bothered running any diagnostic tests on this mod to see if it was beneficial so I don't know that anything concrete can be said about it...that having been said I would recommend you put your time and money into a more beneficial project.

I did this mod on my first WRX and honestly I don't think it did any good - it didn't cause any harm either (other than when I forgot to tighten down a fuel clamp on my first attempt and ended up spewing fuel all over the road) but no gain was ever noticed. I didn't bother re-doing this mod on my current WRX because of the giant PITA it was the first time.

If for some reason you have some extra cash burning a hole in your pocket and you feel like undertaking a project just for the hell of it - by all means go ahead
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Old 07-29-2011, 06:28 PM   #117
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I finally have an update. It might not help, but here are my results:

The parallel mod: I really do not know if it helps or hurts and wish I had correctly diagnosed the EGT and Coolant temp issues before switching to AP fuel rails. I don't know what you should do with the per cylinder fuel tables, but my educated guess is how Subaru bins the injectors vs aftermarket which are flow tested and matched. So zeroing these tables should be good for this mod.

The cause of the slight EGT spikes was a tuning issue. My tip in enrichment was just slightly off. But moreover, since I am flowing almost 2x the amount of air stock, when a knock event would occur, I was pulling out the stock amount of timing and adding it back in very slowly. This would cause the car to run too little advance, then it would knock some more as the EGTs would get higher and higher more rapidly than stock. This would cause more knock until the EGTs were very high. I have fixed this now (I pull 1 degree and add it back in 2x as fast for both FBKC and FLKC). As far as the coolant issue is concerned, when I had my engine out the second time, I made a slight bur on the crank end and the pulley went on a little sideways against the crank key. This made the main pulley wobble a bit. When I last had the manifold off, I was having a very hard time putting the APS hard inlet on the turbo and I ended up slightly bending the AC pulley. This caused coolant temp issues as I had to tighten the AC belt very tight and the AC compressor finally went out. I no longer have any coolant temp issues, EGT spikes or the like and I am making ~30 more WHP and ~50 more WTQ (WTQ is also due to a 3 PSI boost increase).

AP rails: I had to replace the feed hose and fitting. I have noticed a more stable AFR with the per cylinder fueling tables 0'd as well as a power gain.

So my final advice is this. If you use aftermarket matched injectors, 0 the tables and run parallel. If you just decap the stock injectors, leave the tables stock and put the fuel injectors back where they were installed stock.

Gabe

EDIT: In short, forged pistons do not like as much timing pulled per knock event, especially with a larger than stock turbo. A wobbly crank pulley can cause some issues. A wobbly AC compressor that is dragging the motor can cause coolant temp issues. The entire combination of these things makes the car very hard to tune and the car will knock often, even at low loads, even when idling. Fixing these issues results in less overall knock.

Equal length parallel rails allowed me to run 5 more degrees of advance at Peak TQ on gas and 2-3 more at redline with flow matched injectors. The AP rails have a good distro block, but the feed screw on AN fitting leaks. After fixing these, the car has picked up power and is much smoother to drive with a nice gain in power. I still run a bit more advance on #4 as it is closest to the knock sensor, but I did cut those values in half as well. Peak TQ @ 4.5 EL adv = 18*, 6.3k = 23*, 7k = 26* now @ 11:5:1 taper to 11:1 AFR with 26 PSI tapering to 19 at redline. This is on a 20G.

Last edited by gabedude; 07-29-2011 at 07:00 PM.
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Old 07-29-2011, 07:19 PM   #118
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I have some info as well.
I went with an EJ207 and started to read ROM from different cars.
I'm sure everyone has these, but I've collected OEM ROM from a bunch of various STI.
Here's what i found:
With all twinscroll cars, Subaru sends them out with zeroed injector compensations.

Not all EJ207 have this: The Version 7, that do not have twinscroll have compensation values in the tables.

Here is what I think:
Subaru went from beefing up the engine in Version 7, with forged pistons, to resolving the engine (EJ207) better in Versions 8 and 9 and then even better in Version 10.
The better resolving of the engine has meant equalizing flow in the intake and exhaust.

I would do equal length headers and an aftermarket equal flow intake, or a "Spec C" TGV-less intake, then do paralel fueling, then zero out the compensations.

Also, I recently re-read the built engine section longevity poll, and the one guy there that sounded really credible in having driven his built engine over 60K miles, had used an Innovate TC-4 to verify the individual EGT's and equalized them from the injector compensations.
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Old 07-29-2011, 09:00 PM   #119
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I have TGV deletes as well (port and polished). Interesting info. I have found my fueling is much more solid with the compensations 0'd, so I will stick with that for now. The DW report I got back from my stock injector flow lined up with the compensations per cylinder as far as flow (overall, the less flowing injectors had more enrichment in the comp table). I would not think the EL headers or twinscroll would play as much of a difference in per inj comp vs the intake runners. It would cause a slight difference in overlap scavenging.

I might just have to go with 4 WBo2 sensors or 4 EGTs to verify. Stay tuned!

Gabe
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Old 07-30-2011, 12:23 AM   #120
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I just got my Sti pinks converted to 700cc. My report showed them with equal flow, before the conversion.


I think that what happens in the manifold is not as simple to describe situation, as by example a V8 naturally aspirated.
The pressure fronts travel a common area, there could be higher pressure zones in the manifold, these are dynamics, not unifom static pressure.
Maybe one of the two branches of the single scroll manifold is releasing into a more pressurized common area ..
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Old 07-30-2011, 01:48 PM   #121
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I am still of the opinion that the tables have to due more with mass production of injectors and "binning" flows vs the manifold / exhaust design. V8's end up having very odd pressure waves due to the firing order, but many V8s still do some batch firing of their injectors. Our cars never batch fire, they fire once every 2 engine revs, directly at the intake ports.

I have tuned several cars with JDM pinks. The fuel curves were dead on, whether the injectors were on a WRX with TGVs or not. I have also tuned some de-capped stock WRX injectors (the older ones) and the fueling would end up being slightly jaggy when engine load was more or less static (I would always test new injectors by running WG pressure @ 11:1 AFR). It was as if two injectors were flowing slightly more than the others and de-capping them amplified this effect. In addition, I have seen a huge difference in flow on the newer top feed dark blues (06 WRX+, 07 STi+) than the older injectors. However, these cars have 3D tables vs the 16bit ROM cars 2D tables for per injector fueling.

I am sure Subaru does some binning of the injectors these days. As an injector design flows more, it is that much more expensive to manufacture them so they match flow rates vs a process with less aggressive tolerances causing more variation. Being an engineer, I have personal experience with saving money on manufacturing tolerances by utilizing software algorithms. My hunch is this is what Subaru does. To save money, all of the turbo cars went to the same fuel system in 2007 (the fuel pump differs though). With a a larger install base for Denso to install into, I am sure they bin them and the fueling offsets are based on this binning.

It would be interesting to see Deatchwerks comment on this. My experience in engineering pushes me towards cost reduction and binning. My relatively short run tuning various cars for a little extra cash supports this theory as well.

However, at this juncture, the only thing I can state for sure is that I achieve dead on accurate fueling (compared to measured EL) with the tables 0'd on my car. Of course my injectors are matched, I have a straight flow through manifold with no obstacles, and I am running aftermarket rails in parallel with equal length feed/return lines to each bank of cylinders. The combined AFR of all 4 pistons firing lines up with EL (remember IPW is based off of EL) like it should (I have seen de-capped stock injectors not line up with EL on the WBO2).

Interesting discussion.
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Old 07-30-2011, 02:44 PM   #122
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I'm an engineer too. I have some experience with manufacturing optimization and thought about some form of sorting the injectors too.

My thoughts were in the direction that Denso would charge Subaru less for a supply of injectors with a wider tolerance of flow.
Subaru then picks up the injectors, sorts them and matches them using the compenrations at the factory.

This would seem like extra work and since every extra minute on the assembly line can be expensive, at first thought this is not possible.
However, the engine has to go on the test rig as part of the assembly and spends sufficient time there for a quick fueling adjustment.

But here are several problems with the binning thoughts:

Binned/sorted injectors need to be properly coded by Subaru, by their own flow class attributed by Subaru.
Otherwise, injector replacement by an un-trained person will cause disaster.

I have the Subaru Fast2 parts data disc, for USDM, EUDM/AUS and JDM and I can tell you all injectors have 3 part numbers corresponding to:
pinks
light blues
dark blues.

In addition, there are the sidefeeds.

The Spec C went to dark blues with the beginning of version 10.

Injectors of the same engine have all the same part numbers.
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Old 08-21-2011, 09:32 PM   #123
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Just a heads up from the OP price list I found the parts to be close to 100 in total. Im assuming it varies depending where you live.

F.I. Hose (goodyear) 6.50 per ft x 7 = 45.50
Brass Barbs at lowes- 1.68 per x 6 = 10.08
Brass T fittings at lowes- 5.45 x 2 = 10.90
F.I. Clamps at .98 per x 12 = 11.76
Gaskets for Intake about 6 perx 2 = 12.00

Plus tax and coolant you will need to replace. I am looking forward to doing this and getting rid of my ongoing battle with fuel smell in my 02. Just a heads up so your not suprised at the cost.
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Old 09-02-2011, 07:45 PM   #124
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For everyone who did this with top feed and needed an adapter, how did you route the line from the adapter to the rail? I have an gimmick silicone inlet and It seems to route the injection hose I will have to have a very long hose go above the inlet to the line so that it doesnt kink. Anyone have some insight on this? Will the extended hose be a problem?
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Old 09-03-2011, 12:38 AM   #125
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Very nice writeup with pics!
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