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Old 09-08-2011, 10:16 PM   #351
poopncow
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thanks! time for new tires! really it is time.
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Old 09-25-2011, 03:18 PM   #352
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While I do agree with you about tires, they are one of the most important parts that can make a difference on a car, the brake info you are giving people may be misleading, no more horsepower doesn't mean your car will need to be slowed down faster, but faster speed will, which more horsepower will let you obtain. If I accelerate to 60 mph in 6 seconds and 80 mph 6 sec in an upgraded vehicle then need to stop fast, I would prefer better brakes then stock. Plus upgraded street or "sport" brakes do stop you faster if you have better tires. You can also squeeze alot of performance out of the stock brakes with better pads, brake lines and a proper bleed, I would consider those upgrades...
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Old 10-13-2011, 10:16 PM   #353
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Great writeup and I roared at the wtfbbq pad superbuttseks etc... hahahahha.
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Old 10-14-2011, 02:08 PM   #354
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Just read this post, AWSOME. tires and adjusting pressure in the tires vetty vetty important !
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Old 10-19-2011, 12:55 AM   #355
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Can someone explain to me "brake fade". Thanks!
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Old 10-19-2011, 12:02 PM   #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VinceCarter View Post
Can someone explain to me "brake fade". Thanks!
Brake fade is where your brakes ability to maintain the heat from stopping is reduced. This can result in longer stopping distances or the inability to stop at all (boiling the brake fluid). It is caused from repetitive hard stops at high speeds.
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Old 10-19-2011, 07:57 PM   #357
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvdrt View Post
Brake fade is where your brakes ability to maintain the heat from stopping is reduced. This can result in longer stopping distances or the inability to stop at all (boiling the brake fluid). It is caused from repetitive hard stops at high speeds.
Ok thank you!
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Old 10-23-2011, 10:43 PM   #358
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I would just like to point out a bit of misinformation about rally cars. Both Higgins and Mirra in Rally America for 2011 ran 2008+ brembos front and rear (source: STPR 2011), I believe L'Estage was running the factory brembos as well (on their Evo) although I didn't pay as much attention to that car. So in essence only the poor rally teams are running the FHI 4+2
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Old 10-23-2011, 11:00 PM   #359
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this was also written before 2011 wasn't it though
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:29 AM   #360
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You're right, and both block and pastrana ran a BBK in 2009 at the STPR event . I wasnt at the 2010 event so I can't say what was run there.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_niYKa6dOoQ...5232Travis.jpg
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Old 10-24-2011, 10:44 AM   #361
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yes, but you have to wonder how much of that has to do with sponsors. thing is, we all know that the stock sti setup is more than enough for pretty much most courses basically with just an upgraded pad, line, and fluid. so they had to have swapped to something else for a reason other than actually exceeding the limits and abilities of the stock brembos. i mean, i would run 2000 piston calipers if i got them given to me and paid to run them. thing is, the reason some pro-teams go with fancier brakes than the FHI's or stock brembos probably has ALOT to do with sponsors and who is signing your paycheck and not as much to do with actually NEEDING those specific brakes.
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Old 10-25-2011, 11:43 AM   #362
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Default Big Brakes

Basically for daily drive, your stock brakes are fine couldn't agree more! paint them if you want them to look cool...[/font][/color]
For the track?

1 lap time attack runs with cool down in between your laps, you will be good on stock set up (e.g. little/no brake fade). Granted they won't be as well balanced but you should be able to counter that if you can drive well!

lap after lap racing or spirited driving through the mountain roads for a long periods of time, on a stock brake set up you will get fade quick, meaning they will get really hot fast and your stopping power will be reduced as you continue to drive (e.g having to brake earlier and press harder to get the same slowing power in a corner). For these types of scenarios this is where a big brake kit comes in to play! it reduces fade so that you have the same braking forces corner after corner and you get little fade! If you car comes with brembos, then upgraded lines, better fluid, lighter and/or slotted (not drilled) rotors can help keep that fade down even more. But again you only need this for lap after lap constant hard on hard off extreme conditions driving.

I have had Brembos on my stock cars now for my last few cars, they came on the stock car. I will say after using brembos i will never go back to a basic stock type brake and it will influance my car purchases like the example given at the start of the post! Why? because even though they don't improve stopping distance (1000% agreed), the balance, the consistency, and the quailty of them make them feel way better under your foot and also because they are better balanced in those emergency type scenarios the car is less squirly under hard braking then a basic OE set up beacuse they are well balanced compared to a basic set up!!!

It's Brembos (or simlar) all the way for me (but only if they come stock cuz i can't afford an aftermarket big brake kit LOL)

other than that i agree with the origonal post completely!
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Old 10-25-2011, 05:41 PM   #363
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you took alot of time to think this one through, its a great point.
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Old 10-25-2011, 05:45 PM   #364
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uuuu nkkkkkkkk k
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Old 10-31-2011, 02:43 PM   #365
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So, it amazes me that people are still arguing with him and havent really gotten his point. He's not saying dont upgrade your brakes if you are tracking, rallying, or spirited mountain driving your car, he's saying that the average joe driving these cars who will not be doing all of that dont really need to worry about the upgrades because they wont put themselves in a situation to need the use of them. Just my 2 cents for my first post.
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Old 10-31-2011, 03:26 PM   #366
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You right no one should argue...I hope people didn't get that from my post! I just read the original post which is 100% accurate although I thought it would be a good idea to close a few gaps especially for the newbie who may not understand like the bloke who was asking what brake fade was! I thought a few simple seniors would help the original post and close down the rest of the arguements!

Hope it helped
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Old 11-04-2011, 05:43 AM   #367
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and this is the kind of info that keeps me a member. Just as I thought about upgrading brakes.
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Old 11-05-2011, 08:35 PM   #368
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100% Yes to OEM brakes !
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Old 11-08-2011, 02:46 AM   #369
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This is a terrible primer on brakes. Complete CRAP.

It incorrectly simplifies, makes wrong assumptions, and refuses to acknowledge a glaring weakness in Subaru cars particularly those w/ the later turbo/faster cars.

If you take ANY Subaru - even the non-turbo ones - and drive it hard - the first system to fail will be the brakes. The engine will continue to accelerate, the car will continue to turn, but it won't stop.

My 2005 Outback XT had what were perhaps the WORST brakes I ever encountered on a street car. With low friction pads - ABS was irrelevant as it took both feet and a prayer to threshold the RE-92's. The brakes on that car were horrific.

On to the dissection.

First and foremost. Yes it's the tires. Your tires control the LIMIT of acceleration, deceleration, and cornering left or right. The velocity of your car is simply a vector and your tires determine the limit to how much we can alter this vector. Your brakes, in OEM form, are the only system on the car that can only apply maximum alteration to the velocity vector for a very limited number of times before the system fails. Either the pads will fade or the fluid will boil or both.

Go try it if you don't believe me.

-Your steering will get you around a turn at max cornering MANY times before the PS fluid boils or the ball joint/tie rod/damper overheats or the tires give up and fail.

-Your engine will do pass after pass at full acceleration before it overheats/starts to detonate/or whatever.

-Your OEM brakes will only threshold brake the car from speed 4-5 times if that before becoming a smoking heap of 'PM WRX brakes for good deals'. And aside from the STi - they feel like absolute crap along the way. Both feet in is NOT modulation.

In stock form - your motor can barely overwhelm the tires. So the velocity vector is not that disturbed. Accelerate all day till the motor gives up.

But in handling and braking we can certainly overwhelm the tires. So we affect a MUCH larger change to that pesky velocity vector meaning much more power is dissipated.. The difference is that in steering - the power required to change the velocity vector is dissipated in tire heat - which are much LARGER than brakes. In braking this same power is transferred DIRECTLY to your brakes. And aside from the STi they are pretty ordinary 2 piston/1 piston floating calipers w/ ordinary sized rotors and JUNK for brake pads (no noise or dust because OMG we HATE THAT).

Chapter One Ends.

Cliff Notes

This post sucks and I shall slowly dispel it and all it's myths.

Unless you have an STi - you have at best average brakes.

Of course there is more - I didn't come here to LAYUP.

-Ken
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Old 11-08-2011, 04:06 AM   #370
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wouldn't it be safe to assume that the "average at best" brakes are probably okay for the average person. my bone stock 1997 legacy L has ZERO issues activating its anti-lock brakes, my stock wrx brakes had ZERO issues activating the anti-lock brakes on the RE92's or even much better tire options for that matter, and my stock wrx had ZERO issues overcoming the traction abilities of my RE92 tires. i mean, the only time i ever saw any real issues with fade on my stock wrx brakes was on an 11 mile long VERY spirited canyon run. for the next run of this same canyon, all i changed was the fluid to a higher boiling point fluid and the pads to ones with better heat ranges, and pretty much all fade went away. i would say that a good majority of subaru drivers have probably never even felt brake fade at all on their stock brakes because they never drive them hard enough to even get to this, and i think that is the point. for the avg subaru drivers on the roads, the stock brakes do just fine, and upgrading the pads and fluid would probably take care of alot of the others.
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Old 11-08-2011, 12:15 PM   #371
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I do canyon runs very often in my car (Stage 2 WRX) and the only upgrade to my brakes is Stoptech pads. And that's because my stock pads finally wore out.
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Old 11-08-2011, 10:13 PM   #372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
wouldn't it be safe to assume that the "average at best" brakes are probably okay for the average person. my bone stock 1997 legacy L has ZERO issues activating its anti-lock brakes, my stock wrx brakes had ZERO issues activating the anti-lock brakes on the RE92's or even much better tire options for that matter, and my stock wrx had ZERO issues overcoming the traction abilities of my RE92 tires. i mean, the only time i ever saw any real issues with fade on my stock wrx brakes was on an 11 mile long VERY spirited canyon run. for the next run of this same canyon, all i changed was the fluid to a higher boiling point fluid and the pads to ones with better heat ranges, and pretty much all fade went away. i would say that a good majority of subaru drivers have probably never even felt brake fade at all on their stock brakes because they never drive them hard enough to even get to this, and i think that is the point. for the avg subaru drivers on the roads, the stock brakes do just fine, and upgrading the pads and fluid would probably take care of alot of the others.
This forum is not about average cars or drivers. Average drivers are likely only concerned with 'one panic stop'.

The average car on here though is a WRX which is fast and has good handling and aside from the 06/07 has poor brakes and comes from the factory with weak brake pads. The 06/07 has OK brakes but still has weak brake pads. The front rotor is too small.

Subaru agree's - in 2009 they increased the mass of the rotor.

Many owners on here further increase the acceleration and handling of their WRX (ability to alter the velocity vector) yet ignore the one velocity vector that is most likely to injure them.



Ability to lock up the wheel/engage ABS is irrelevant to braking performance.

1 - You cannot steer the vehicle if the wheels are locked
2 - If the wheels are locked than the rotor is not moving in relation to the brake pad. This has no bearing on brake performance as static friction always exceeds dynamic friction.

The brakes at a minimum need to be able to slow the car at the tires limit while allowing the driver to control the vehicle. Never mind performance driving of any kind - Subaru brakes are marginal at best. Mushy compliant pedal, overboosted system, the braeks feel like they coem from a minivan or something.

Drive a Miata w/ Hawk HPS- drive a WRX w/ HPS - I did. Night and day.

Installing performance pads and high temp fluid IS an upgrade btw.

I had a 97 Outback. It's brakes were terrible. It would only lock up the wheel with pretty excessive pedal pressure if at all. Foot to the floor and keep pushing. It had beat AS tires on it. That is no way to control a car and I could not let me wife drive it.

Installed some good friction semi-metallic pads and fluid flushed and it was great. Lasted a good long time as well. It was the PERFECT upgrade for that car.
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Old 11-08-2011, 11:35 PM   #373
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^
There are a couple things about your post I want to address.


1. When most people here talk about the need to upgrade their brakes, because now with more power they need to be able to stop better, they are saying, and I am not imagining this, its what I have read time and time again, they are saying "if I am now moving faster with this more power, and someone pulls out in front of me"


THAT RIGHT THERE "someone pulls out in front of me"

Is dead on, textbook "one panic stop"

So you are off in the idea that that is not the MAIN concern for the average member here (and I am speaking of enthusiasts, lets keep in mind, being an enthusiast doesnt= necessarily knowing what they are talking about or being a great driver)


Your statement "ability to lock up the wheel/engage abs is irrelevant to braking performance" Is so misleading as to the point where I believe you are doing it intentionally.

OF COURSE IT IS RELEVANT TO BRAKING PERFORMANCE. How you can say it isnt, is beyond me. If you cant lock the tire, your brakes arent powerful enough. (I am talking about ability to lock it if there was no ABS, obviously we dont WANT to lock it, which is why we have ABS) What I am saying is that if your brakes are capable of bringing the tire to its adhesion limit, the point where the ABS kicks on, there is no benefit to making that brake system more powerful.

A locked up wheel, means the brake has given all it can, and has done its raw mechanical job of taking an object in motion (in this case the rotor) and stopped it from moving. If you can make the ABS kick on, your brakes are as powerful as they are ever going to get.

SO, now on to the "you cannot steer the vehicle if the wheels are locked"

Exactly. So what can we do about it? Well, obviously, going to a brake system that can lock a wheel with even less effort is not going to be any sort of a solution.

If the brake is able to lock up the wheel, there is absolutely zero reason, or benefit, to going to a larger or more powerful brake. The mere notion that there would be, is absurd, unless you are speaking of repeated braking situations, where heatsoak is an issue, at which point pad compound/fluid rating/rotor mass needs to be looked at. However, again, you need to look at the threads where people are saying "I added 100hp, now I need brakes in case someone pulls out in front of me" Because, in those situations, big brakes mean exactly dick.


You are also grossly overestimating the average subaru enthusiast in 2011. Sadly, we arent all a bunch of performance driven people, striving for higher engineering and higher performing systems. Now, the majority, know very little about the car, and if you go to a meet, sadly, 8 out of 10 people there, will be the sort that thinks that the secret to being a great driver, is planting their right foot on the floor and leaving it there.

Now, for those people, they most definitely would benefit from HUGE brake upgrades FOR TRACK DAYS, because their driving technique will be so poor that there would be no prayer for their OEM brake system to not fade and have the pedal turn to mush. I am not saying that to call them bad drivers, I am saying that because they are for the most part, completely inexperienced, and just like 99.9% of inexperienced drivers (in high performance driving situations over extended laps) will have poor braking technique.

But for day to day use, roll racing on the highway, and stoplight showoff races, which is all 99.99999% of the Subaru drivers will ever do, brake upgrades are little more than something that makes the pedal feel nicer, or make their car look nicer.



Ok, so what can we do to stop the car shorter? Well, the brakes have already done all they can. Now its up to the ABS system to modulate them. No big brake kit, lines, pads, fluid changes in the world can alter that. That is in the programming of the ABS computer itself.

So what is left?

You need something that will raise the threshold at which the tire locks up.

Which is traction.

How do you get more traction?

Tires.

You can also lower the weight of the car. And do mods that ensure that you get the best balance from your brake system. (this is why the older cars stop better with the "H6" setup on the rear, it gets you a little more from the back. Since the car's brakes are too heavily front biased to begin with)



I have driven a miata with HPS's I drove it for a year and a half. I have driven numerous cars with any number of different brake combinations.

Want to know what changed the stopping distance on any of them? Stickier tires or shedding weight.




Here is where I almost start think you are just laying a big pile of horse **** out there to sell more brakes.

Your 97 outback. I cannot possibly for the life of me, even begin to imagine that this car just had brakes that "worked that way" as in they worked as they were designed to and as they were when delivered. You know as well as I do that this car had parts in need of repair and/or service. Some of these people may not know enough to know it, but you and I know it.

Anyone with any sort of mechanical background at all, can look at what you said, and see a very clear problem with the brakes on that car, as in something was malfunctioning.

The brakes on that car, when in good condition, are fine for what it is. In fact I know of people rallying on them with nothing more than lines/pads. Which, as I am sure you know will do dick squat about the problem you are describing, which is almost definitely a hanging caliper. I can almoct promise you that could have been fixed in 20-30 minutes with a set of loaded calipers from autozone/wherever.

IN FACT, you yourself shot your entire idea in the foot, when you laid out how you repaired it, and it worked fine.

You flushed it, and you replaced the pads. I promise you that using a great pad, which I am sure you did (why wouldnt you? You have access to them cheap) would have not fixed the problem any better than a set of $40 pads from vatozone.







I really wish people who just want to justify the expense or sell brakes would stop trying to poke holes in something that there has been multiple magazine articles proving 100% to be true, something multiple professional racers have said is true, and something any race car shop worth a damn will tell you, is true.



Stopping distance is tires and weight. PERIOD. (provided that the brake system is functioning properly)

Just stop with the entire "hurr duur heatsoak derp derp" crap. Heatsoak isnt a problem 90% of these people on nasioc will ever encounter. The 10% that do, all already know this information and arent searching the newbie forum looking for setup tips. So lets stop pretending that what applies to them applies to this thread.



Now, on to Subaru increasing the diameter of the rotors on the 09 WRX.

Are you really trying to make an apples to apples comparison of going from a 4 piston fixed mount caliper, to a 2 piston floating mount caliper, on a car with a completely different chassis? Do I even need to point out how stupid that is? Do you want me to let the fact that you are ignoring (intentionally?) the concept of the fixed 4 piston caliper having a HELL of a lot more clamping force than a floating 2 piston, thereby not needing the same diameter rotor?

Did you leave that out intentionally hoping the newbies wouldnt know enough to take that into consideration, or did you yourself not know enough to take that into consideration.





Know what the worst part is? There are a lot of people out there that are not informed enough to know that just because someone is a vendor, that doesnt make them know what they are talking about. Because either you are intentionally trying to make it look like you need brake upgrades worse than you do, or you actually believe it. Either way isnt good.


Im out. Ill check back on the thread in a few weeks when my head is done assploading from the stupidity ****storm this forum has become. Dont bother PMing me whining, I delete PMs on sight for the most part.

Last edited by Davenow; 11-08-2011 at 11:48 PM.
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Old 11-09-2011, 12:49 AM   #374
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^^^ Well said.

I drive a 97 OBS and the only 2 things I have ever had a complaint about in the braking system is 1) The ABS doubles your stopping distance and is too sensitive for my tastes and 2) The pedal is a bit mushy and yes, they do boost the crap out of these brakes.

For the ABS system, its a common complaint I've heard and the simplest answer is to install a switch to kill power if you are trying to threshold brake or are in sketchy conditions. No big deal.

For the pedal feel, there are tons of fixes to that, as OP has explained. For one, I've driven tons of trucks and cars that have a crapload worse pedal feel. Try the 89 dodge work truck I drove that you had to push 2/3s the way down to even begin to brake and try as I might, 2 foot stand braking couldn't lock the tires up. My stock OBS system would easily lock the wheels on all seasons. I haven't gone out and tested my rear disc swap yet, however if they do any better than the drums, a tasty combo of performance pads and mods will be plenty for anything I'll ever need from the brake system.

And while I also agree they use a lot of vacuum boosting, I put my booster lines on backwards and found that out quickly. But that being said, most manufacturers do the same thing nowadays and it shouldn't be a concern for even a mild track car. If it became an issue, you would be at the point that custom fitting brake systems will be within your ability and budget.

Long story short: I've had no issues with my brake system. If you are fading and boiling brake fluid, then you should upgrade your brakes. Stock systems are plenty for the streets and if you want to have more confident braking, tires are the answer.
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Old 11-09-2011, 03:15 AM   #375
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the only reason i brought up locking up the wheel/activating ABS is because you did in your original post...


...just sayin......



Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXBrakes View Post
This forum is not about average cars or drivers. Average drivers are likely only concerned with 'one panic stop'.

The average car on here though is a WRX which is fast and has good handling and aside from the 06/07 has poor brakes and comes from the factory with weak brake pads. The 06/07 has OK brakes but still has weak brake pads. The front rotor is too small.

Subaru agree's - in 2009 they increased the mass of the rotor.

Many owners on here further increase the acceleration and handling of their WRX (ability to alter the velocity vector) yet ignore the one velocity vector that is most likely to injure them.



Ability to lock up the wheel/engage ABS is irrelevant to braking performance.

1 - You cannot steer the vehicle if the wheels are locked
2 - If the wheels are locked than the rotor is not moving in relation to the brake pad. This has no bearing on brake performance as static friction always exceeds dynamic friction.

The brakes at a minimum need to be able to slow the car at the tires limit while allowing the driver to control the vehicle. Never mind performance driving of any kind - Subaru brakes are marginal at best. Mushy compliant pedal, overboosted system, the braeks feel like they coem from a minivan or something.

Drive a Miata w/ Hawk HPS- drive a WRX w/ HPS - I did. Night and day.

Installing performance pads and high temp fluid IS an upgrade btw.

I had a 97 Outback. It's brakes were terrible. It would only lock up the wheel with pretty excessive pedal pressure if at all. Foot to the floor and keep pushing. It had beat AS tires on it. That is no way to control a car and I could not let me wife drive it.

Installed some good friction semi-metallic pads and fluid flushed and it was great. Lasted a good long time as well. It was the PERFECT upgrade for that car.
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