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Old 11-12-2011, 01:04 PM   #1
Full-Race Geoff
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Default 2007 STi: Twinscroll BorgWarner S300SX FMW vs Twinscroll Garrett GT4088R

years ago, when Full-Race had just begun to use the BW Airwerks turbos, we had a lot of people ask for a back-to-back comparison of the S300SX 8375 (60mm inducer) against the twinscroll 35R (60mm inducer). We did this test on a 2.0L evo click link for old test

----------------------------------------


update for 2011 - nasioc member "philthy" (a longtime customer/friend of Full-Race and all-around hardcore car nut) runs Full-Race twinscroll turbokits on his fully built 2.5L 2007 STi AND his fully built 2.2L evo8 for over 3 years now. Hill McCarty @ Agile Auto has built and tuned the STi over the years and both cars have been thoroughly flogged at high boost with Garrett GT4088R's in all types of street driving and racing conditions so he knows the turbo's behavior inside and out. He has always wanted even faster spool on his STi - but didnt want to lose power. After learning about the new airwerks S300SX FMW a direct plug-and-play for his twinscroll kit, i guaranteed him it would do what he was looing for so he wanted to try it out. "FMW" technology (aka forged billet aluminum compressor wheel) combined with their tried and true airwerks turbine wheels and housings makes for a massive performance potential despite an incredibly value-minded pricetag

one very special feature of this turbo is the ability to order it with (2) different turbine blade shapes, cupped tip OR flat tip to suit the engine and application at hand:





the exact day this turbo became available, Philthy drove his Subaru w/ 4088R twinscroll setup down to Agile Auto in MD for the turbo swap and retune. This turbo is also unique due to the 2.5" compressor outlet, making it an even easier plug-and-play compared to the older gen s300sx. Hill @ Agile auto tuned & dynoed the 40R, swapped the turbos and then tuned & dynoed the BW S300SX FMW.

Final Dynoplot comparison of Philthy's 07 Subaru STi w/ Full-Race twinscroll turbokit: BW S300SX FMW .91 a/r flat tip (Solid Lines) VS. Garrett GT4088R .95 a/r (dotted lines):



video of final dyno pull on pump gas + meth spray:

comments: we believe the flat tip and .91 a/r is the optimal combination from the airwerks S300 lineup for the STi engine. It is a great match for this engine's unique VE and airflow requirements. For an engine with higher VE such as s2000 or 13B rotary then the cupped tip would be worth consideration obviously - it completely destroyed the garrett from idle to rev limit.

Phil says this turbo made him LOVE his subaru again. The turbo can make 6-7psi at 1/4 throttle before 3000rpm at part throttle cruising. He says the sounds this turbo makes are unlike anything he's ever had before, and it transitions into boost effortlessly. I will ask him to post up with some long term comments after driving more

The exact specification of the build:

Engine:

Borg Warner S300SX FMW Flat tip .91 a/r
Full-Race T4 Twinscroll Turbokit
Full-Race Twinscroll Up-Pipe w/ 2x Tial 38mm MVS WG
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Last edited by Full-Race Geoff; 11-12-2011 at 02:22 PM.
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Old 11-12-2011, 01:13 PM   #2
Full-Race Geoff
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reserved for phil's long term comments
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Old 11-12-2011, 01:41 PM   #3
Beetspeed
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Very cool comparison and awesome results for a 83mm exducer compressor wheel vs a 88mm one!

Is there a similar comparison of that turbo with cupped wheel and the flat tip turbine wheel?

Oh, what boost and fuel was run for both?

Greets,
Walter
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Old 11-12-2011, 02:17 PM   #4
TDagen
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Very cool comparison! Billet tech ftw...

Why are the graphs hp and tq crossing at different points?

The 4088 hp/tq lines cross at 5800rpm and the 300sxfmw hp/tq lines cross at 6000rpm? I thought it was pretty standard for subarus hp/tq tp cross at 5250rpm, whats up with this car?
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Old 11-12-2011, 02:20 PM   #5
Full-Race Geoff
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beetspeed - 28psi for both, fuel is pump gas + meth

tdagen - the HP and TQ are on different scaling. If they were the same scaling ALL cars would cross at 5250 rpm. opposite lock below is 100% correct

Last edited by Full-Race Geoff; 11-12-2011 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 11-12-2011, 02:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDagen
Very cool comparison! Billet tech ftw...

Why are the graphs hp and tq crossing at different points?

The 4088 hp/tq lines cross at 5800rpm and the 300sxfmw hp/tq lines cross at 6000rpm? I thought it was pretty standard for subarus hp/tq tp cross at 5250rpm, whats up with this car?
It's actually for all dynos as its the relationship between hp/tq (calculation)
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Old 11-12-2011, 02:33 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff View Post
- good point - all cars should have tq and hp cross at 5250 - ill get agile auto to comment, they supplied the chart
Torque and horsepower are represented differently on their respective axis. It actually makes it look like it has a much better torque curve.
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Old 11-12-2011, 02:52 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OppositeLock View Post
Torque and horsepower are represented differently on their respective axis. It actually makes it look like it has a much better torque curve.
True, but the 40r plot should still cross at the same point as the s300 plot. It's beginning to look like the 2 plots are acuatlly scaled differently... Possibly to make a turbo look better/worse than it actually is? Or possibly just an honest mistake... CONSPIRACY!!!!

But seriously, the 2 plots should have the hp/tq crossover point at the same rpm...
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Old 11-12-2011, 04:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxhard View Post
True, but the 40r plot should still cross at the same point as the s300 plot. It's beginning to look like the 2 plots are acuatlly scaled differently... Possibly to make a turbo look better/worse than it actually is? Or possibly just an honest mistake... CONSPIRACY!!!!

But seriously, the 2 plots should have the hp/tq crossover point at the same rpm...
Torque and HP are on separate scales on the Y axis, if they were scaled the same, they'd cross at 5252, nothing funky.
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Old 11-12-2011, 06:24 PM   #10
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thanks guys- was looking at it on my cell phone and the scaling is different. nothing unusual

Last edited by Full-Race Geoff; 11-12-2011 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 11-12-2011, 06:44 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSM_Outback View Post
Torque and HP are on separate scales on the Y axis, if they were scaled the same, they'd cross at 5252, nothing funky.
So if they both were done with this same y axis setup wouldnt they both cross at the same rpm? Or did the old 4088 graph use a different y axis #'s making it uncomparable? Wouldn't it be one or the other? Im confused... Lol!
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Old 11-13-2011, 04:25 AM   #12
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Yes...... If the torque and horsepower scaling are not the same they will not cross at 5252. To check if the figures are correct you can just do the math.
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Old 11-13-2011, 04:41 AM   #13
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BW s300sx: (445*6000)/5252=508 BHP.
Garrett GT4088R: (425*5850)/5252=473 BHP.

Both BHP calculations come up short by about 20 BHP but at least the numbers look to be valid. Always good to do a sanity check with the maths. (Torque*RPM)/5252=BHP

Jasper.
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Old 11-13-2011, 04:56 AM   #14
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Geoff, I am running the FR twinscroll with a 35r and the 1.06 hotside. Goodspeed built it with a cosworth long block, tgvs and intake manifold. @ 3300 rpm I have some surging going on. Any ideas?

Also I want to get faster spool. What BW turbo would work. I'm 480 whp on 91 and 560 whp on 109. Is there a direct swap turbo that might be little bigger and have better spool?

Other then... I love the twinscroll set up.
Thanks!
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Old 11-14-2011, 10:08 AM   #15
Full-Race Geoff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinscrollGT35R View Post
Geoff, I am running the FR twinscroll with a 35r and the 1.06 hotside. Goodspeed built it with a cosworth long block, tgvs and intake manifold. @ 3300 rpm I have some surging going on. Any ideas? Also I want to get faster spool. What BW turbo would work. I'm 480 whp on 91 and 560 whp on 109. Is there a direct swap turbo that might be little bigger and have better spool? Other then... I love the twinscroll set up.
Great to hear you are already running a Full-Race twinscroll turbokit. This setup is very versatile becuase it allows you to run almost any twinscroll t4 turbo on the market. The surging you hear is most likely becuase your compressor housing is not the fully ported shroud version (garrett updated these for 2011) - if you can post a picture of the compressor inlet i can verify that.

For a turbo that will perform better; ie faster spool and more top end, i suggest BorgWarner turbos would be a direct bolt-on for your car and deliver what you are looking for? More info like what is your power target, boost target and fuel used, as well as what is done to the engine? i can try and offer some recomendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beetspeed View Post
Is there a similar comparison of that turbo with cupped wheel and the flat tip turbine wheel? Oh, what boost and fuel was run for both?
walter - have not done any back to back subaru tests with cupped tip vs flat tip on the turbine wheel - but we did do it on a 25psi 8375 2jzgte. id be happy to post the results up for anyone interested, was not a huge difference but it was a difference nonetheless
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Old 11-14-2011, 12:25 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkopinga View Post
Yes...... If the torque and horsepower scaling are not the same they will not cross at 5252. To check if the figures are correct you can just do the math.
Yes, we both realize that without question, what we're TRYING to point out is that they should both cross over at the same point. We know it won't happen at 5252 because of scaling, but it shouldn't be at 5850 for one and 6000 for the other. What we're trying to say is that the scaling from turbo to turbo appears to be different.
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Old 11-14-2011, 12:56 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrxhard View Post
Yes, we both realize that without question, what we're TRYING to point out is that they should both cross over at the same point. We know it won't happen at 5252 because of scaling, but it shouldn't be at 5850 for one and 6000 for the other. What we're trying to say is that the scaling from turbo to turbo appears to be different.
+1
Thats exactly what Im saying too. Therefore this comparison isnt equal...
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Old 11-15-2011, 12:50 PM   #18
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I've requested dyno charts with the correct scaling from Agile and shall post them once I receive them...

I don't frequent the forums much, mainly because it's often just a waste of time dealing with know it all tough guys behind a keyboard that are all to quick to degrade the dialog to insults and personal attacks all over ego and nonsense - you can digest the information anyway you want, but the fact is the BW S300SX FMW is a ridiculous good turbo and absolutely unmatched for the price point...

I've been trying different setups on my STI since I bought it new back in 2006... I've used a few of the FP bolt on turbos (regular green, HTA green, red), I used the ATP35R, Garrett 4088R, had a APS header up-pipe (four of them actually because they kept cracking), a Full-Race 1.5 scroll kit, and a Full-Race complete TS kit (what's on the car now)...

The BW S300SX FMW, by far has out performed any of my previous setups... I have never been fully satisfied with my STI, owning a +800hp EVO, a +700hp TT G35 Time Attack race car, and a handful of other ridiculously fast toys, the STI was never in my top five favorite toys that I own... I have spent a lot of time and money trying to make this car a respectable fast daily driver, and had all but given up before Geoff told me about this new BW turbo...

This turbo just flat out kicks butt - good boost threshold, makes great power all they way up to my 8000rpms rev limiter, and the boost recover between shifts is just flat out instantaneous... I'm pretty confident that with E85, this turbo will do over 650whp with even more gains in the mid-range - I admittedly was surprise to see the boost threshold of a 35r and the power of a much larger turbo...

On the dyno, we were hitting peak boost of ~29psi and then it would taper to ~27psi at redline, on the street it holds 30psi across the board...
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Old 11-15-2011, 01:28 PM   #19
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^Awesome! Whats the price range on that turbo?
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Old 11-15-2011, 01:32 PM   #20
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I believe retail on it is ~$1100...
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Old 11-15-2011, 04:02 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff View Post
walter - have not done any back to back subaru tests with cupped tip vs flat tip on the turbine wheel - but we did do it on a 25psi 8375 2jzgte. id be happy to post the results up for anyone interested, was not a huge difference but it was a difference nonetheless
id like to see these.

does bw have plans on utilizing fmr technology in 57 and 66mm turbo sizes. i know the new s300sx3 66 is extended tip but not billet (fmr)

also, is the s300sx3 66mm avaiable with both types of turbine wheel? i was under the impression from talking to someone using one that it was cupped tip but i cant find a turbine wheel style option when ordering the fmr on your site, and i didnt see the sx3-66 but maybe im just blind.
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Old 11-15-2011, 05:59 PM   #22
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id like to see these.
Yeah, me too Geoff! I can understand it won't be a large difference, but I would still find it very interesting.
As you know, I have the cupped tip version of that 75mm turbine wheel and I think I haven't even made the turbo sweat much at 400 whp and 1.6 bar boost
A little better spool is always welcomed though, but you know that

Is the 83mm FMW any lighter in weight then the 83mm cast wheel?
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Old 11-16-2011, 10:53 AM   #23
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^^^ It should be. Most Billet wheels are MUCH lighter than their cast counterparts. I believe it would be in the region of 30~35% weight saving of the comp. wheel. Looking forward for somebody to do a weight comparison between the 2 compressors. Geoff...??
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Old 11-16-2011, 12:33 PM   #24
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This is straight from the raw data from both runs - the rpm points are as close as I could compare the two...

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Old 11-16-2011, 05:25 PM   #25
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See the raw data makes it look less dramatic
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