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Old 01-31-2012, 03:39 PM   #126
Md05STI
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Micah could always give me one of these engines and we would have some results
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Old 01-31-2012, 04:23 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by Md05STI View Post
Micah could always give me one of these engines and we would have some results

if we could afford to give an engine away, there would be a line for sure. Micah makes about three times what I make though so he could probably swing it.
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Old 01-31-2012, 04:25 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
if we could afford to give an engine away, there would be a line for sure. Micah makes about three times what I make though so he could probably swing it.
hey micah,

get the hint?
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Old 01-31-2012, 04:33 PM   #129
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Exactly the current limit on RPM. If you want to drag race, I'd honestly say the engine will gladly take a larger turbo.
so is that confirmation the heads are the "bottleneck"?


my intention is track circuit racing/time attack. looking @ the dyno graphs we have so far it's clear there is a bit of power dropoff. i was under the impression that this was simply the hotside of the turbo being not-quite-big-enough at 0.82, yet the 1.05 is simply too laggy. hence, me thinking with more RPM the 1.05 would be ideal.

are you saying that the dropoff is in fact a product of a restriction in head flow rather than the hotside of the turbo?

if so that's kind of a shame as a ton of headwork is much more difficult/expensive compared to a simple hotside swap but, if that's the case then such is life. having said all this, it appears/you guys have mentioned that the cams used simply haven't been big enough and that might be the cause of the dropoff.

keen to hear your thoughts on the matter, i'm sure there is a bit of testing to do with cams/exhaust hotsides yet.
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Old 01-31-2012, 04:50 PM   #130
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There are a handful of things that need to happen to push a Subaru motor that high.
1. Intake manifold. We will need the plenum volume and short fat runners to feed enough air in the engine. Also, the firing order of the engine makes proper intake manifold design a little tough.
2. Cams: Right now there isn't a cam profile made for a 10k rpm engine. Custom cams would be required as a minimum.
3. Head flow: While these heads don't flow a ton, there are big differences from port to port. 20% difference in exhaust ports from the factory. At 300hp that's a significant difference in flow, but at 900hp we're really talking about a major tuning issue. Our porting program is designed to provide less of a difference in flow between cylinders while still removing as little material as possible to provide good velocity.
4. Cooling: the STi water pump won't cut it. The 2L water pump is a good pump that experiences less cavitation at high rpm. I think it is possible to expand on that pump a little to increase flow output. Getting more cooling to cylinder 4 is also a priority for us.

As Vicious pointed out, a larger hotside is required. This is a given. As cam size goes up, so does the hotside. The challenge is getting as much air in and out of the engine will at the same time minimizing overlap. In order to do this, you need a lot of lift as these heads really flow well at almost 12mm. The issue with that is then trying to prevent valve float at such a high rpm with a big cam. Increasing spring pressure increases parasitic loss...

It's a big circle, really.
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Old 01-31-2012, 05:19 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
... In order to do this, you need a lot of lift as these heads really flow well at almost 12mm. The issue with that is then trying to prevent valve float at such a high rpm with a big cam. Increasing spring pressure increases parasitic loss...

It's a big circle, really.
As you very well know I'am sure, you can 'easily' cut the circle by using stronger but lighter valve train parts. Titanium comes to mind as does DLC coating lifters to cut parasitic losses, etc etc.
Its just a matter of money, same as with any engine, whether its an evo or any other platform imo.
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Old 01-31-2012, 05:31 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
The issue with that is then trying to prevent valve float at such a high rpm with a big cam. Increasing spring pressure increases parasitic loss...

It's a big circle, really.
Formula 1 engines employ pneumatic valve springs in which pneumatic pressure closes the valves (Wikipedia).

15k easily. C'mon, Dom. if anyone can make this work, you can.
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Old 02-01-2012, 02:44 AM   #133
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F1 engines also need an entire team of people/equipment including a laptop computer to start

dom - i saw you've done testing with a gt3082, have you done anything with a gt35 1.06, or a big badass 280 degree cam or similiar?

any news on the 77mm crank front? i'd love to hear about what you & micah are developing with that one

if you're not under an NDA and can tell us of course
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Old 02-01-2012, 10:56 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Md05STI View Post
Micah could always give me one of these engines and we would have some results
You never called me back but man you have no problem texting
We just need to meet up for a beer and talk things over already!!

I did just place an order for 3 extra sets of 300 M I-beams with 625 bolts

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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
Micah makes about three times what I make though so he could probably swing it.
I don't know about all that but I am putting a few freebies out this year...it's out of my wallet.

3MI Racing is saving to have parts in stock and then to build equity for a 5-axis mill.

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Originally Posted by vicious_fishes View Post
so is that confirmation the heads are the "bottleneck"?
Dom hit you with the basis of what's needed to make it run happily at speed and the water pump is something that needs to be addressed for an engine living at the RPM (see road course work). I do have my 'suspicion' that the cast impeller is much better than the stamped steel...but I'm never happy without hard evidence.
The valve springs are actually proving to be the limitation of ONE setup that I've had were the springs relaxed. May be a fluke but the valvespring company sent me a new set to replace and retest...Don't ask names as I won't say as I'm working with them and they're working with me to resolve/see if it is an actual issue.

-Micah
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:47 AM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3MI Racing

You never called me back but man you have no problem texting
We just need to meet up for a beer and talk things over already!!

I did just place an order for 3 extra sets of 300 M I-beams with 625 bolts
I called and you didn't answer, should have called me back!! Even though the chances of me answering are slim. Texting is easier for me, I get easily sidetracked and don't pay attention when on the phone...get ahold of me and we can figure out a time to meet up and talk things over.
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Old 02-01-2012, 11:56 AM   #136
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iirc i remember seeing somewhere someone had popped open the water/oil pumps from both turbo and NA models and found the NA pumps to have much, much smoother impellers.

food for thought.
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Old 02-01-2012, 12:06 PM   #137
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what is the rod length on it?


and jesus someone carve us out a block... if proline can do it for their own custom v8s our simple block halves should be easy.


OMG when I saw this I think I got an erection... then I went limp when I saw the price tag.
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Old 02-01-2012, 01:02 PM   #138
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OMG when I saw this I think I got an erection... then I went limp when I saw the price tag.
this is the sort of money you start talking to run 6 second passes
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Old 02-01-2012, 03:16 PM   #139
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I just built a bunch of these with 102.3mm bores that brings them out to 2.5L. I'm excited to see these results as well.
To possibly satisfy people's curiosity a wee bit.. I have just over 3k miles on my 102.3mm bore 2.5L. I'm not going to divulge much at the moment (mostly since the car has more big plans in the near future), but in its current form (with a mid-sized turbo) it's an absolute riot on the street and the power would likely satisfy a majority of individuals.

The big plans should unfold in the next few months and then i'll likely have results that I'd be willing to share... maybe.
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Old 02-01-2012, 05:47 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
4. Cooling: the STi water pump won't cut it. The 2L water pump is a good pump that experiences less cavitation at high rpm. I think it is possible to expand on that pump a little to increase flow output. Getting more cooling to cylinder 4 is also a priority for us.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3MI Racing View Post
Dom hit you with the basis of what's needed to make it run happily at speed and the water pump is something that needs to be addressed for an engine living at the RPM (see road course work). I do have my 'suspicion' that the cast impeller is much better than the stamped steel...but I'm never happy without hard evidence.
If you guys need some help figuring out a water pump solution let me know. I'm an engineer for a VERY large pump company, we have products in multiple markets including automotive. I mainly deal with oil/gas but I'm local to Dom and know a good amount about pumps, re-rating them, head (pressure)/flow limitations, etc...

Oh yeah, hurry up and get your RSTi finished Dom! Can't wait to read about it and geek out.
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Old 02-01-2012, 07:48 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Loubaru View Post
If you guys need some help figuring out a water pump solution let me know. I'm an engineer for a VERY large pump company, we have products in multiple markets including automotive. I mainly deal with oil/gas but I'm local to Dom and know a good amount about pumps, re-rating them, head (pressure)/flow limitations, etc...

Oh yeah, hurry up and get your RSTi finished Dom! Can't wait to read about it and geek out.
finished?
it drives right now. were just changin the heads to add avcs to the engine.
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Old 02-05-2012, 09:55 PM   #142
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:05 PM   #143
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Well my big bore version of this engine is alive, damn that moroso pan and it still leaking GRRRRRRR! But hopefully some results. FP GT3586 Big HTA with 2.5" uppipe and 2" primary header with big lift kelford 199C cams, dual 044's and E85. Oh ya a bunch of other stuff too..




BTW Congrates Mike the ole GC8 is going to be a demon..
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Old 02-05-2012, 11:53 PM   #144
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Congrats mike! I can't wait to see this thing go down the track.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:21 AM   #145
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Love the seats
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:33 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by wrx_driver_2002 View Post
GT4094, 2.35L Engine, 8200 Rpms and 28 PSI... Just dyno tuned saturday.
2 questions:

What header?

What cams/size?

Last edited by eliezerrosario; 02-06-2012 at 11:43 PM.
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Old 02-07-2012, 12:57 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by eliezerrosario View Post
2 questions:

What header?

What cams/size?
The header is a 1st gen Full Race twin scroll header. The uppipe is a full race twin scroll T4 header. The turbo is a GT4094 with a 0.95 a/r exhaust housing.

The heads are CNC ported B25 heads. They have a total of 1500 miles on them and were 100% brand new when they were machined. During the porting process, the valve seats were enlarged to take advantage of the +1mm intake and exhaust valves. The valves are made by supertech... Nitrided intake valves and inconel exhaust valves.

The cams are Kelford R-199-C cams for an 04-07 STI. 272 / 272 duration. Lift is 11.5mm intake and 11.1mm exhaust. They are setup for avcs but I have not run avcs yet for two reasons.

First reason is my neutral switch operates backwards of how it should which prevents AVCS from working. The other reason is I have absolutely no idea how much advance I can run due to the 9:1 pistons, +1mm valves, and the high lift cams. When the engine was assembled, I did not take the time to clay everything. I have been told that I can run up to 7-10 degrees of advance, but I am not sure running say 5 degrees would really be worth the risk. The car is not daily driven and spool is not my highest priority.
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Old 02-07-2012, 01:58 AM   #148
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^thank you
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Old 02-07-2012, 06:27 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by wrx_driver_2002 View Post
The header is a 1st gen Full Race twin scroll header. The uppipe is a full race twin scroll T4 header. The turbo is a GT4094 with a 0.95 a/r exhaust housing.

The heads are CNC ported B25 heads. They have a total of 1500 miles on them and were 100% brand new when they were machined. During the porting process, the valve seats were enlarged to take advantage of the +1mm intake and exhaust valves. The valves are made by supertech... Nitrided intake valves and inconel exhaust valves.

The cams are Kelford R-199-C cams for an 04-07 STI. 272 / 272 duration. Lift is 11.5mm intake and 11.1mm exhaust. They are setup for avcs but I have not run avcs yet for two reasons.

First reason is my neutral switch operates backwards of how it should which prevents AVCS from working. The other reason is I have absolutely no idea how much advance I can run due to the 9:1 pistons, +1mm valves, and the high lift cams. When the engine was assembled, I did not take the time to clay everything. I have been told that I can run up to 7-10 degrees of advance, but I am not sure running say 5 degrees would really be worth the risk. The car is not daily driven and spool is not my highest priority.
Where is MPS and homemade? No comments on this guys results. Seems he has given validation to your collective long rod design. I wish that the boost did not taper as it would have been cool to see the hp keep rising like a supercharger would!!!
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Old 02-07-2012, 07:17 PM   #150
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Where is MPS and homemade? No comments on this guys results. Seems he has given validation to your collective long rod design. I wish that the boost did not taper as it would have been cool to see the hp keep rising like a supercharger would!!!
that's only half a pound of taper...


What do you want us to say? I'm not surprised by the results at all. I'm very happy to see them here in the thread, but I'm not going to go snubbing people who were naysayers about it. 620whp on a Mustang dyno is no **** jack. I think it says everything we've been trying to say.

I honestly want to change that turbo to a BW. I have a sweet one that flows more and spools faster than a 4094. The larger compressor in that turbo is a slight mismatch and hurts short stroke engines in the spool department.
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