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Old 02-12-2012, 12:31 AM   #26
ArSoN9
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EXACTLY

IMO half the blown up cars around here are from ghetto fuel setups and band-aid tuning to go with it.

FWIW I am not bashing Ron saying that either. Just an observation

Yeah I agree its much easier/cheaper for the owner to just get by with the current setup and rigging some tune to "get by".. So many people insist on pushing more boost on tunes before they have the proper fuel support. I have only been at the tuning game for a short time but it amazes me where people draw the line and say good enough when modding/tuning their cars.

OP IM not trying to bash your setup, just merely agreeing with the others on the subject of "not enough injector for the job" I know most if not all boost tapers slightly out towards redline the stated 26~24, but I feel 180whp is alot to loose due to there not being enough injector to hold A/F in the safe zone. I hope your tuner explained all this to you when you had the car done.
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:37 AM   #27
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That is one hell of a correction factor on top of a high reading dyno.....Nonetheless i hope you are happy with your car and running hard...
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:06 AM   #28
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i know everyone's ranting on about more complicated fuelling/tuning etc stuff at altitude but...

couldn't you just drive the car to sea level, tune it, drive it back?
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:18 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by vicious_fishes
i know everyone's ranting on about more complicated fuelling/tuning etc stuff at altitude but...

couldn't you just drive the car to sea level, tune it, drive it back?
No. The boost control isn't gonna be the same at sea level as at altitude.....and those injectors will be at 130% at sea level

Every 2000 feet u go up in altitude the target boost drops by 1-1.25 psi....so he has to be targeting ~30 psi to run 26....
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:05 AM   #30
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since theres no FPR listed...im assuming this car is on a stock FPR.....so imo if this car goes to sea level he's gonna overboost and/or lean out like a mofo. maybe we can get him to take a drive and test it

Edited main post, HKS FPR and Aeromotive 340lph rewired to my Optima Red Top that is in the trunk, so just a couple feet of 8ga wire. So it's getting all the amps it needs

Also a brand spanking new fuel filter.

I don't mind running a log for you guys, just let me know what parameters you'd like to see and what kind of driving. The AEM Series 2 is really nice at recording logs so just let me know.

I did my research on the Aeromotive and its an Amp hog.. That's why I did the rewire since I know stock wiring would never supply that kind of power.

Last edited by xbiker321; 02-12-2012 at 04:17 AM.
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:16 AM   #31
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And the fuel pressure is.....how many amps is it pulling?

Obviously u have the fueling to make super power....whats your idc?

Last edited by Phatron; 02-12-2012 at 04:35 AM.
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:19 AM   #32
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Any info on how to rewire the pump to give it more amperage.
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:34 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by xbiker321

Edited main post, HKS FPR and Aeromotive 340lph rewired to my Optima Red Top that is in the trunk, so just a couple feet of 8ga wire. So it's getting all the amps it needs

Also a brand spanking new fuel filter.

I don't mind running a log for you guys, just let me know what parameters you'd like to see and what kind of driving. The AEM Series 2 is really nice at recording logs so just let me know.

I did my research on the Aeromotive and its an Amp hog.. That's why I did the rewire since I know stock wiring would never supply that kind of power.
So you did a proper fuel setup and you didn't need 10000000cc injectors for your power goals? LoL !!

Congrats on the car, power band looks awesome. Enjoy it!
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Old 02-12-2012, 11:38 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Phatron
And the fuel pressure is.....how many amps is it pulling?

Obviously u have the fueling to make super power....whats your idc?
Super power??
He is making what he should be with his setup.

If I were to guess he is making 80-85% duty cycle depending on were they are running his afr. He probably has room for 20-40whp more on e85.
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:31 PM   #35
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...but I feel 180whp is alot to loose...
I think you mean't to say torque, not horsepower? If so, that's pretty typical for the smaller .63 a/r turbine - they choke on the right side of the RPM band. Great spool for the street, big lumpy torque hit in midrange, but huge torque fall off up top.

Junior, Phatron, $64K question: what happens when he drops down off the plateau to sea-level, knowing that he's gonna have ~ 3-4" more absolute manifold pressure? Can he just drop boost by 3-4 psi and call it good?
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Old 02-12-2012, 12:40 PM   #36
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Jr will have to answer that. I don't know how the aems boost control parameters are setup. And the op doesn't have his boost controller listed
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Old 02-12-2012, 01:53 PM   #37
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Depending on how the AEM is setup it can and will compensate for it. It is boost compensated fueling so as long as he has fuel system for it, it should keep the same AFR and the boost will adjust for altitude swings as well... Again if he is controlling the boost via the AEM and has set it up to do so.

Jr
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Old 02-13-2012, 12:01 AM   #38
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i am running a similar setup with an EWG.....Won't that prevent the boost spike when I go down to sea level????
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Old 02-13-2012, 12:37 AM   #39
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The problem isn't a spike, it's the whole "target boost" in the stock ecu....when you go up in altitude the target boost decreases. So to run 26psi at altitude you have to target 30psi....then the calculated target will be 26.....but when u go down in altitude that target boost will start increasing. So if you're running 26 at 5000 feet and drive to sea level u will target 30.

If you're tuned at 26psi at sea level and drive up in altitude to 6000 ft your boost target will drop to 22psi.

The problem is tricking the target boost at altitude then driving to sea level.

There are other Compensations in there to correct it, but the tuner would basically be guessing at the wgdc correction unless u actually logged the car at the various altitudes.

Last edited by Phatron; 02-13-2012 at 12:43 AM.
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Old 02-13-2012, 01:24 AM   #40
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But doesn't the wastegate open up completely once target boost is reached no matter what the duty cycle is, thus bleeding off excess boost....
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Old 02-13-2012, 10:31 AM   #41
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bump!

Last edited by Irv Weissmanhowerton; 06-14-2012 at 01:09 AM.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:02 PM   #42
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I get the part about "boost compensated fueling" in the AEMS (looks like a terrific system, btw), but I suppose what I mean't to ask was the reverse. IOW, does the AEMS also have "fuel compensated boost?" Will it decrease boost if and when the injectors max out and the AFR's go up?

Tim Bailey always told me to not run my highest sea-level boost map when I'm running at home (4K+ elevation) - he had me build a boost map that runs 2 lbs less boost for use at altitude. This was with an AVCR ECBS and EWG. I'd always thought the issue was the altitude induced change in PR which causes the turbo output to heat up. Am I mistaken?

Last edited by flycaster; 02-13-2012 at 08:15 PM.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:15 PM   #43
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But doesn't the wastegate open up completely once target boost is reached no matter what the duty cycle is, thus bleeding off excess boost....
No, the duty cyles define how open or closed the WG is at any given moment. The WG does what it's told by the controler, nothing more or less. I've never seen a log where the WG was totally open at peak boost - if it went 100% open, boost would drop like a rock.
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Old 02-13-2012, 08:27 PM   #44
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But doesn't the wastegate open up completely once target boost is reached no matter what the duty cycle is, thus bleeding off excess boost....
its not a matter of the wg being able to mechanically control it. its that the Target Boost calculation in the ecu changes with atmospheric pressure.

If you take a stock STi that targets 14.7 psi at sea level and drive it to 6000ft the target boost will be 10.7 psi.

This causes a problem when tuning at altitude because you either have to change the target boost to compensate.....IE you would have to target 18.7 psi on that stock STi for it to target 14.7 at 6000ft......or you could try using the atmospheric pressure compensation for the target boost and wgdc and basically guess at how much to increase them.

The best way to deal with cars that are going to be changing altitudes is to get logs from them.

Quote:
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Tim Bailey always told me to not run my highest sea-level boost map when I'm running at home (4K+ elevation) - he had me build a boost map that runs 2 lbs less boost for use at altitude. This was with an AVCR ECBS and EWG.

I'd always thought the issue was the altitude induced change in PR which causes the turbo output to heat up. Am I mistaken?
Yes, you're correct. If you run the same boost at altitude you start running the turbos at higher pressure ratios and lowering the efficiency.

Sea Level

PR = atm press(14.7) + 26psi (boost) / 14.7 = 2.76

6000 ft

PR = (11.7+26) / 11.7 = 3.22
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:12 PM   #45
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I talked with my tuner and he asked for some logs once I get to sea level and he will adjust the maps...

He says they are safe to run here at altitude and have adjustments for going down to sea level....
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Old 02-13-2012, 11:50 PM   #46
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That's wise, but log it yourself and look for any knock correction and fueling issues. It won't do any good if you send him a log after the car runs into trouble. Just keep an eye on it...the same is true for all of us. If you see anything bad happening, just keep your foot out it until he has a chance to adjust the map.
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Old 02-16-2012, 03:29 AM   #47
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I will be logging it on the way to sea level...

I am looking for a good local tuner as well in the Portland, Oregon area.....
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Old 02-16-2012, 01:42 PM   #48
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...I am looking for a good local tuner as well in the Portland, Oregon area.....
Tim Bailey at Cobb/Surgeline Tuning: http://www.cobbtuning.com/info/?ID=5427
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Old 02-16-2012, 01:48 PM   #49
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what spark plug and gap size are you using?
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Old 02-17-2012, 12:34 AM   #50
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I am going to talk with Tim Bailey and John Reed of John Reed Racing....
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