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Old 03-11-2012, 01:03 PM   #151
zlr101
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im only at 400miles on the car but recent weather with highs in the 50s have made my mpg jump 2-3mpg average
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:06 AM   #152
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got the car its great! impreza sport in red. lots of room and handles great
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Old 03-13-2012, 05:41 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thom52 View Post
yah, caps don't matter. people miss the point either way....sigh

Yes, I have been referred to Fuelly. Yes I have looked carefully at those numbers. I am an engineer. I am used to reading and interpreting data. Note that ALL those cars include a significant portion of highway driving in their estimated percentage loading. Depending on how you look at it, driving city really hammers your overall mileage, or driving freeway really brings up your overall mileage. None of those summaries are pure city driving or even close to it. and that is what I am referencing. Most people seem to be focussed on freewheeling highway numbers.

since you brought up fuelly....
has anyone noticed the trends on the graphs that show the trend curves for each car with this very preliminary data? Besides swinging pretty wildly, I notice a weird slight trend of the gas mileage going down after the initial fillup. Way too early to put much weight in that. And it probably puts fuelly as a data source in question more than anything.

Other people have already pointed out how a couple of "bad" entries have messed up the overall trends on other brands/models of cars on fuelly.

You have to look at the fuelly numbers and graphs and individual charts very carefully for it to be of any use.

I sure hope I start getting 10 mpg better fuel economy after break in, to at least get me to within striking distance of the EPA numbers.
From one engineer to another I would have to say that your "city" driving doesn't fall under the EPA's definition of city. From your description of your commute (or your wife's), the trip is way too short to even allow the engine to warm up. At this range, many of the systems are still running open loop in an attempt to get the engine warmed up. As noted by others on this thread, the initial idle speed is higher when the engine is cold. This has been done for many years by many companies. It is in an effort to heat the engine and exhaust components so that they work properly (catalytic converter). In automatic and CVT equipped cars, the shift pattern is also skewed in an effort to get things up to temperature. Even my 99 Saturn did this.

If you commute is just barely long enough to get past this open loop mode, your mileage will be far below the EPA's rating which is based on a 1/2 hour period of time.

As for me, I just picked up my car (2.0i Sport Premium CVT) last week and I am still on the first tank of gas. So far, by the gauge, I am averaging 29.4 mpg on a 50/50 highway/city commute of 16 miles (10 lights, 3 stop signs). The average speed for this first 277 miles has been 27 mph. The first thing I did when I picked up the car was to reset Trip A because there was 52 miles of who knows what before I got the car and the average mileage was 15 when I began my drive home from the dealer.

From what I can tell so far, this car prefers a medium weight foot when accelerating from 0 to 55. Trying to keep the rpm's really low (2500 or less) doesn't seem to help the average most likely because the integrated time to get up to speed cancels out lower instantaneous power output. Keeping the RPM low doesn't mean that the engine is running in it best efficiency range. This is the advantage of the CVT. It can tune infinitely to keep the engine at its best loading.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:21 PM   #154
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MUCH research later.....I concur.
Current cars of pretty much ANY brand, are optimized for the EPA 11 mile, half hour "city drive". Which I am guessing does NOT match a lot of Errand running, Soccer moms, and REAL city drivers duration.

Consumer Reports backs this up with a "severe City" test that has a bunch of "economy cars" producing mileage in the teens. I think the civic got 19mpg, with a broken in car. Oddly I can't find their test results on the Impreza, even though they HIGHLY recommend the Impreza overall in its class.

Also tough is finding JUST City drivers that enter their mileage on Fuelly. Seems "mostly highway" drivers are more interested in taking the effort to track milage. Maybe because the short hop drivers are too busy running errands. But I did find Elantra owner with mostly city getting 14 mpg, and a couple of other similar drops in the rare "mostly city pie chart" entries.

So, I am not especially happy with the city mileage, and still think our older cars did better in city, but I don't think we could improve significantly with any other "modern" car. and the Impreza jumps up QUICKLY with better mileage than the older cars with a mix of highway or even longer city commutes.

I still think its unlikely the majority of Impreza owners will get within 20% of the EPA mixed figures, unless they drive mostly freeway, but the Impreza seems to be right in there competing well with the 2WD economy cars for REAL driving.
And its a LOT more fun and enjoyable to drive than most of the econoboxes out there.

Thanks for putting in your observations/opinions on optimizing acceleration for economy. I think that is a much more complex thing or at least needs a new look, with the CVT involved. Thats the kind of info I am looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kufman View Post
From one engineer to another I would have to say that your "city" driving doesn't fall under the EPA's definition of city. From your description of your commute (or your wife's), the trip is way too short to even allow the engine to warm up. At this range, many of the systems are still running open loop in an attempt to get the engine warmed up. As noted by others on this thread, the initial idle speed is higher when the engine is cold. This has been done for many years by many companies. It is in an effort to heat the engine and exhaust components so that they work properly (catalytic converter). In automatic and CVT equipped cars, the shift pattern is also skewed in an effort to get things up to temperature. Even my 99 Saturn did this.

If you commute is just barely long enough to get past this open loop mode, your mileage will be far below the EPA's rating which is based on a 1/2 hour period of time.

.....ng.
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Old 03-13-2012, 07:46 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thom52
MUCH research later.....I concur.
Current cars of pretty much ANY brand, are optimized for the EPA 11 mile, half hour "city drive". Which I am guessing does NOT match a lot of Errand running, Soccer moms, and REAL city drivers duration.

Consumer Reports backs this up with a "severe City" test that has a bunch of "economy cars" producing mileage in the teens. I think the civic got 19mpg, with a broken in car. Oddly I can't find their test results on the Impreza, even though they HIGHLY recommend the Impreza overall in its class.

Also tough is finding JUST City drivers that enter their mileage on Fuelly. Seems "mostly highway" drivers are more interested in taking the effort to track milage. Maybe because the short hop drivers are too busy running errands. But I did find Elantra owner with mostly city getting 14 mpg, and a couple of other similar drops in the rare "mostly city pie chart" entries.

So, I am not especially happy with the city mileage, and still think our older cars did better in city, but I don't think we could improve significantly with any other "modern" car. and the Impreza jumps up QUICKLY with better mileage than the older cars with a mix of highway or even longer city commutes.

I still think its unlikely the majority of Impreza owners will get within 20% of the EPA mixed figures, unless they drive mostly freeway, but the Impreza seems to be right in there competing well with the 2WD economy cars for REAL driving.
And its a LOT more fun and enjoyable to drive than most of the econoboxes out there.

Thanks for putting in your observations/opinions on optimizing acceleration for economy. I think that is a much more complex thing or at least needs a new look, with the CVT involved. Thats the kind of info I am looking for.
Dude, YOU are the exception. EPA came up with models to fit most Americans driving habits to give most Americans an idea about potential mileage. You are the bottom of the bell curve. There's no sense trying to find a boogey man. Maybe you should have gone electric ...
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:20 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hemophilic View Post
Dude, YOU are the exception. EPA came up with models to fit most Americans driving habits to give most Americans an idea about potential mileage. You are the bottom of the bell curve. There's no sense trying to find a boogey man. Maybe you should have gone electric ...
Or Hybrid. Both configurations really shine for this type of driving. All of the configurations will do poorly if you want cabin heat for this type of driving.
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Old 03-13-2012, 08:56 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kufman View Post
From what I can tell so far, this car prefers a medium weight foot when accelerating from 0 to 55. Trying to keep the rpm's really low (2500 or less) doesn't seem to help the average most likely because the integrated time to get up to speed cancels out lower instantaneous power output. Keeping the RPM low doesn't mean that the engine is running in it best efficiency range. This is the advantage of the CVT. It can tune infinitely to keep the engine at its best loading.
I've tried every variation of driving, to maximize my MPG, and I get significantly better MPG by pussyfooting it, to the point of barely accelerating at all. Maybe it's because I drive 40 miles one-way, but I get better MPG driving as slow as possible. I find this to be extremely difficult, and am glad that temps are up, blizzaks are off, and the TC is locking up much earlier in my drive, so I can be more aggressive and still get good mileage. I hit 30.8 on my fill, today, and that included two WOT/WFO to 80+, 50% city driving, and fairly aggressive driving.
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:44 PM   #158
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Things are looking up for me too. It hit 65 here today, and after a weekend drive that netted 33mpg (as high as 35.7 but down after 40 miles of shorter trips sunday), I figured I'd be on a steady decline and lose at least 1mpg on the gauge. Pleasantly suprised to have arrived home from my commute (28 total miles to/from work) at the same 33mpg reading (likely to be 31.5mpg real world or so). If I'm able to hold it steady at 33 on my commute, the summer and summer gas blends will fare even better.
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:48 PM   #159
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A little info about measuring mileage. Note the claim about topping off the tank to measure fuel consumed.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars...?click=main_sr
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:13 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thom52
MUCH research later.....I concur.
Current cars of pretty much ANY brand, are optimized for the EPA 11 mile, half hour "city drive". Which I am guessing does NOT match a lot of Errand running, Soccer moms, and REAL city drivers duration.

Consumer Reports backs this up with a "severe City" test that has a bunch of "economy cars" producing mileage in the teens. I think the civic got 19mpg, with a broken in car. Oddly I can't find their test results on the Impreza, even though they HIGHLY recommend the Impreza overall in its class.

Also tough is finding JUST City drivers that enter their mileage on Fuelly. Seems "mostly highway" drivers are more interested in taking the effort to track milage. Maybe because the short hop drivers are too busy running errands. But I did find Elantra owner with mostly city getting 14 mpg, and a couple of other similar drops in the rare "mostly city pie chart" entries.

So, I am not especially happy with the city mileage, and still think our older cars did better in city, but I don't think we could improve significantly with any other "modern" car. and the Impreza jumps up QUICKLY with better mileage than the older cars with a mix of highway or even longer city commutes.

I still think its unlikely the majority of Impreza owners will get within 20% of the EPA mixed figures, unless they drive mostly freeway, but the Impreza seems to be right in there competing well with the 2WD economy cars for REAL driving.
And its a LOT more fun and enjoyable to drive than most of the econoboxes out there.

Thanks for putting in your observations/opinions on optimizing acceleration for economy. I think that is a much more complex thing or at least needs a new look, with the CVT involved. Thats the kind of info I am looking for.
I would love to see the Consumer Reports story. I wonder how a Prius would do in that test...
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Old 03-14-2012, 03:37 PM   #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RxMPLS View Post
I would love to see the Consumer Reports story. I wonder how a Prius would do in that test...
Most hybrids perform better at city speeds due to using their electric motors almost entirely - I would guess on a true hard city test it would perform extremely well.

You're up here in MPLS I assume, seeing a jump in your mpgs with the warmer weather? I'm holding in the 32 range, a good 4mpg more than my previous average on my current tank.
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Old 03-14-2012, 04:49 PM   #162
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Default CR Fuel Economy Results

CR vs EPA
Impreza Sedan 20/35 vs 27/36
Elantra 20/39 vs 29/40
Civic EX 18/43 vs 28/39
Civic LX 19/47 vs 28/39
Mazda3 SkyActiv 22/43 vs 28/40
Prius 32/55 vs 51/48

The Impreza is competitive in CR's severe city test vs non-hybrids and not competitive in CR's constant 65mph highway test.
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Old 03-14-2012, 09:22 PM   #163
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I'm still wondering about thoms average MPH. Anyone taking bets? Put me in for 15mph.
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Old 03-14-2012, 09:39 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hemophilic View Post
I'm still wondering about thoms average MPH. Anyone taking bets? Put me in for 15mph.
If my wife does what people are calling "mixed" driving here...i.e. 70-80% and above freeway, then she gets 28mpg. Which DOES beat the "City" rating at least.

The more I look at it, doesn't it seem a bit odd that the city rating is such a close number to the Mixed EPA rating?

The car is a keeper for us though. Otherwise its a GEM of a car.

I just don't feel so bad about my "screw aerodynamics" heavy brick of a Honda Element gas mileage anymore though.
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Old 03-14-2012, 10:50 PM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pxpaulx

Most hybrids perform better at city speeds due to using their electric motors almost entirely - I would guess on a true hard city test it would perform extremely well.

You're up here in MPLS I assume, seeing a jump in your mpgs with the warmer weather? I'm holding in the 32 range, a good 4mpg more than my previous average on my current tank.
I've had a big jump in my mileage with the warmer weather! I seem to be getting around 33 average on my newest tank, since yesterday. I'm hoping when I take off the snow tires later this week it will be even better. My last tank was 32.5 mpg (calculated, not from the gauge) and the previous tank was 27.8. Before that, with all the cold and snow, I was lucky to get 24 overall...
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Old 03-15-2012, 08:02 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benchmark View Post
CR vs EPA
Impreza Sedan 20/35 vs 27/36
Elantra 20/39 vs 29/40
Civic EX 18/43 vs 28/39
Civic LX 19/47 vs 28/39
Mazda3 SkyActiv 22/43 vs 28/40
Prius 32/55 vs 51/48

The Impreza is competitive in CR's severe city test vs non-hybrids and not competitive in CR's constant 65mph highway test.

Do you have a link where you found the impreza comparison?
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:01 AM   #167
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Some of the information compiled is available to subscribers only.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker070 View Post
Do you have a link where you found the impreza comparison?
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:58 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thom52 View Post
If my wife does what people are calling "mixed" driving here...i.e. 70-80% and above freeway, then she gets 28mpg. Which DOES beat the "City" rating at least.

The more I look at it, doesn't it seem a bit odd that the city rating is such a close number to the Mixed EPA rating?
I think we'd still all like to know what your car's trip computer says for average MPH! Mine is at 36 for this tank, 260 miles into it with a reading of 32.7mpg (likely to be around 31.5 calculated). over 3 days of commutes I've been holding 32.7 steady (has dropped to 32.4 but ticked up by the time i get home/to work). That is pretty much a 4mpg increase simply due to a 30 degree temperature increase outside. I'm at about 2500 miles, thinking some break-in is finally having an effect as well. Going 60 on flats is giving an instant read-out of 40-50mpg, even more promising.

The reason we're interested in your MPH reading is that it seems to be the best indicator of what your overall driving patterns are. Mine is typically in the low 30s, and I would call my driving probably 35/65 city/highway based on that number. If I went strictly by the roads I traveled, I probably spend more like 85% of driving time on an actual highway (55+mph), but that doesn't account for cold engines and other factors that make my daily commute skewed more towards a 'city' type of driving (i.e. the 35/65 I wrote above).

I would guess that the 'mixed' driving number isn't just a random choice of city/highway (by epa standards) but rather a combination of all 5 of the epa tests including the new AC/high speed/cold weather tests - perhaps equally weighted between the 5 (or not, again just a guess).

Last edited by pxpaulx; 03-15-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:00 AM   #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benchmark View Post
Some of the information compiled is available to subscribers only.
Are you talking about subscribers to Consumer reports? By any chance could you possibly copy and paste the info? Thanks alot if you can.
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:50 AM   #170
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An online subscription is needed to read some online information. The information posted here was compiled by me from different test reports/comparisons. What information are you looking for?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker070 View Post
Are you talking about subscribers to Consumer reports? By any chance could you possibly copy and paste the info? Thanks alot if you can.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:29 PM   #171
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I was just wondering if CR did a report on the 2012 impreza similar to the report that popular mechanics did on the focus that was listed by another member a few posts before this.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:38 PM   #172
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Yes, they did a report. It's coming out in the May 2012 issue. I would not want to cut and paste the online report here. But in summary: rides nice (They tested a Premium sedan with 16-in tires, so a higher level model with 17-in tires may suffer a bit), drives nice (not as nice as a Focus, Mazda3 or Golf, but again this is with 16-in tires), good interior quality, good amount of passenger room, simple (button) controls, a little noisy and they didn't like the amount of engine-braking when going downhill with the CVT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jparker070 View Post
I was just wondering if CR did a report on the 2012 impreza similar to the report that popular mechanics did on the focus that was listed by another member a few posts before this.
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Old 03-15-2012, 12:54 PM   #173
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Thanks alot, I have the car and love it, I was just curious what they said. I will go and buy the issue when it comes out. Thanks again.
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Old 03-15-2012, 03:00 PM   #174
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Just as a data point, I reset the avg FE to day, on a hot engine, and got 40+ mpg at 55 mph, with a slight headwind over a 1-mile distance. I got 39 mpg at 65 mph going crosswise to the wind over 7 miles. Temp was 64F. My 1/3rd-tank-used avg is at 35.4 mpg, in real-world that'd be 32.5-34 mpg. I commute 40 miles, 40% city/60% hwy. I got 31 actual mpg on my last tank.

Took off the blizzaks, mpg seemed to rise 2+ mpg, although some of that would be slightly warmer temps than the previous week. Car is much quieter, and ride is much softer!
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:59 PM   #175
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With 4 tanks logged (first did not count due to not being full to my knowledge)...
2nd tank = 28.6 MPG 417 miles
3rd tank = 28.7 MPG 411 miles
4th tank = 29.4 MPG 374 miles

Dash display has been pretty accurate +/- .2 mpgs
I will start to note the MPH average for those interested. The mileage is mostly suburban/rural to highway. Not a lot of city driving but trips into the City of Reading, PA actually happen twice a week these days.
Logging with Fuelly.com

4 3/15/12 417.0 14.17 29.4 3.679
3 3/8/12 411.0 14.30 28.7 3.679
2 3/1/12 374.0 13.26 28.2 3.699
1 2/23/12 12.56 3.599
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