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Old 04-02-2012, 01:20 AM   #51
JohnsonJ718
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Snow drift your saying the 2011+ stock tune is safe or stage 1 pro tune on a 2011+ is safe?
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Old 04-02-2012, 02:17 PM   #52
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I know when I got my 12 as soon as Found out TP offered open source maps I reflashed. Would have went with the AP but update wasnt available yet. The reassurance in a safer than stocktune, was worth it to me, the closed/open loop transistion on stock tunes is just bad. In stock form on my wrx, I did not have the lean out hesitation that STi owners describe, but when I reflashed, my powerband increased to a more usable state.
Regarding the tune's them selves, when I re-flashed phatron wanted to review my stock tune. He reviewed and compared them and found:
11 & 12 STi stock tunes are way more dangerous the WRX tunes, the closed/open transition on teh STi's are just not as smooth, which is exactly why we hearing about issues more so with Sti's than WRX's. Honestly, theres no reason to flash before or after "break-in" 1,000 miles.
@JohnsonJ718, A stage 1 pro-tune is the safest options. But why spend that much on a pro-tune in stock form? Second best option, TP OTS Stage 1 tune or Phatbotti e-tune (which both will review for you), then Cobb OTS tune, and lastly worst of all stock tune.
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Old 04-02-2012, 02:52 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Fast4U1DAY View Post
Subaru HAS to put the tunes on like that to meet federal emission standards. If they don't meet the standards, they aren't allowed to sell cars here in the states. If you want it to be reliable, YOU have to have it tuned by a third party.

It has nothing to do with Subaru being "showed up". It all comes down to cost and regulations. Period.
True but not completely.

Subaru could got with a more appropriate stock tune that won't blow the motor, but this would result in the buyer having to pay the "Gas Gluzzer" tax, which can been pretty steep as well as additional regulations fees to be paid by Subaru.

Therefore, to avoid this and other federal emissions regulations Subaru estimated what will cost the company more...let the STi come over with a safe tune, but put out more emissions, thus costing the end user and company more money to legally bring the car to the US. Or take your chances and tune the car to be within federal emissions specs, avoid the gas guzzlers tax and take you losses on the few motors that go boom. As you can see Subaru estimated that it will cost the company less to fix blown motors than to pay the additional taxes and regulation fees to bring the car over with a good tune.

As everyone likes to point out the tune/ringland issue seemed to really pipe up during 2008 and onward...Well that just so happens to be around the time our ecomony was starting its downward spiral. So this could have been part of Subaru's plan to weather those times and cut costs where possible. We will never know.
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:05 PM   #54
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I am not seeing a TP OTS stage 1 tune for the 2012 STi on their site. Am I missing something?

Why is the TP map so much better than the Cobb OTS map?
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:27 PM   #55
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Eric owns/ runs torqued performance, he is extremely helpful, I would email him to verify mapping for your 12.
From my understanding, because Cobb is marketing it's product to such a large market, their tunes are quite conservative(lower boost, easier timing & whatever else parameters) safer their tune, the better for such large quantities of users. TP's are slightly more aggressive, yielding slightly more power.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:16 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STiNemesis View Post
True but not completely.

Subaru could got with a more appropriate stock tune that won't blow the motor, but this would result in the buyer having to pay the "Gas Gluzzer" tax, which can been pretty steep as well as additional regulations fees to be paid by Subaru.

Therefore, to avoid this and other federal emissions regulations Subaru estimated what will cost the company more...let the STi come over with a safe tune, but put out more emissions, thus costing the end user and company more money to legally bring the car to the US. Or take your chances and tune the car to be within federal emissions specs, avoid the gas guzzlers tax and take you losses on the few motors that go boom. As you can see Subaru estimated that it will cost the company less to fix blown motors than to pay the additional taxes and regulation fees to bring the car over with a good tune.

As everyone likes to point out the tune/ringland issue seemed to really pipe up during 2008 and onward...Well that just so happens to be around the time our ecomony was starting its downward spiral. So this could have been part of Subaru's plan to weather those times and cut costs where possible. We will never know.
I have no idea if Subaru could get a better tune with just a Gas Guzzler tax.

As to the ringland/tune issue it first popped up in '07. That year they dropped (no pun) the sodium cooled exhaust valves, and redesigned the heads for better cooling to compensate as a cost savings.

I don't know if this is a red herring, or not. The sodium valves could have been a quick and expensive way to get the EJ257 into production for the USDM and it just took several years to develop the new heads.

2007 also had new, tighter vehicle emission regulations. Hence the new tune tying Subaru's hands.

(I have worked for OEM truck suppliers and every time there is a new, tighter emissions law coming into place the orders skyrocket just before and it is a very good year for sales. Conversely, the year after the change the sales nose dive. Trucking companys' do not want to be guinea pigs with their working vehicles and get all of their new rolling stock for the next few years BEFORE the change.)
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:11 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Foot STi View Post
I have no idea if Subaru could get a better tune with just a Gas Guzzler tax.
Sorry I meant to say Gas Guzzler tax in addition to other emissions exempt regulations fees (which are paid for by Subaru, not the end user like the Gas Guzzler Tax).

Either way Subaru is playing the odds that it will cost less to warranty blown motors than to pay the federal government additional regulation fees (which are hundreds of thousands of dollars).
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Old 04-02-2012, 06:41 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JordenP View Post
I know when I got my 12 as soon as Found out TP offered open source maps I reflashed. Would have went with the AP but update wasnt available yet. The reassurance in a safer than stocktune, was worth it to me, the closed/open loop transistion on stock tunes is just bad. In stock form on my wrx, I did not have the lean out hesitation that STi owners describe, but when I reflashed, my powerband increased to a more usable state.
Regarding the tune's them selves, when I re-flashed phatron wanted to review my stock tune. He reviewed and compared them and found:
11 & 12 STi stock tunes are way more dangerous the WRX tunes, the closed/open transition on teh STi's are just not as smooth, which is exactly why we hearing about issues more so with Sti's than WRX's. Honestly, theres no reason to flash before or after "break-in" 1,000 miles.
@JohnsonJ718, A stage 1 pro-tune is the safest options. But why spend that much on a pro-tune in stock form? Second best option, TP OTS Stage 1 tune or Phatbotti e-tune (which both will review for you), then Cobb OTS tune, and lastly worst of all stock tune.
there is no reason what so ever to run a stock tune on any of these cars....unless you want detonation to pop it

and if flashing a brand new car scares you....dont buy a new turbo'd subaru


it is just that simple
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:11 PM   #59
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bouth my wrx last month.. firs thing i did was get a stage 1 cobb AC map in it.. the diffrence is night and day..

yeah the dealer told me i would lose my last year of warranty but witht he mileage i do, i will never use the warranty anyway in terms of having engine problems..

and get this, the dealer doesn't care if i put a full on TBE, CAI, BOV and remove cats... that will still get me warrantied but putting a cobb access port stage 1 will put me in trouble..

WTF ?
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Old 04-02-2012, 07:34 PM   #60
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^ Dealer donsn't care about stuff that with out a tune can pop an engine, but the one thing that can keep a stock engine with the same number of parts as it was installed with is bad.
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:24 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

there is no reason what so ever to run a stock tune on any of these cars....unless you want detonation to pop it

and if flashing a brand new car scares you....dont buy a new turbo'd subaru

it is just that simple
Stock tune worked well enough to get a combined 250,000 miles out of my last 2 WRX's. .. never changed a clutch or a Turbo , let alone a bank of pistons. Traded my 04 @ 105k & my 07 @145K, .
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:32 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post
there is no reason what so ever to run a stock tune on any of these cars....unless you want detonation to pop it

and if flashing a brand new car scares you....dont buy a new turbo'd subaru


it is just that simple
I agreed, but now I'm worried.
2011 STi
9500 miles. Stage 1 at 500 miles to avoid this problem.
Last week I threw P0304 code, there is smoke coming from the oil fill cap, and I'm almost a quart low on oil in the last couple weeks.
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:38 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by gordyzero View Post
Stock tune worked well enough to get a combined 250,000 miles out of my last 2 WRX's. .. never changed a clutch or a Turbo , let alone a bank of pistons. Traded my 04 @ 105k & my 07 @145K, .
You are missing one small point with your other 2 WRXs'. They are not late a model STI. The STi has a more aggressive tune from the factory.

To repeat myself; My early '04 STi had a det problem until I had Subaru NA reflash to the late model map. The difference between the 2 maps is 2 degrees advance at WOT between ~4,000-6,000 rpm. Just a touch to aggressive, but it did make to 300/300 hp/tq numbers...
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:41 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dbrier
I agreed, but now I'm worried.
2011 STi
9500 miles. Stage 1 at 500 miles to avoid this problem.
Last week I threw P0304 code, there is smoke coming from the oil fill cap, and I'm almost a quart low on oil in the last couple weeks.
My point exactly ! I think the rot is a little deeper than the stock tune. According to most of the feedback Im getting. The U.S. spec 2011 used in the Isle of Man video should have been a ****ing cloud of smoke by turn 2. I must be in denial. These cars can't possibly be this horrible.
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:46 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Foot STi

You are missing one small point with your other 2 WRXs'. They are not late a model STI. The STi has a more aggressive tune from the factory.

To repeat myself; My early '04 STi had a det problem until I had Subaru NA reflash to the late model map. The difference between the 2 maps is 2 degrees advance at WOT between ~4,000-6,000 rpm. Just a touch to aggressive, but it did make to 300/300 hp/tq numbers...
Well put, I understood you the first time. I'm just getting mad knowing I dropped 40 k on a car I should have allegedly rebuilt the day I bought it.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:32 PM   #66
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There is a very long and extensive thread about ringland failure on IWSTI.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:36 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnsonJ718 View Post
Snow drift your saying the 2011+ stock tune is safe or stage 1 pro tune on a 2011+ is safe?
Stock. The 2008's had the big problem. It has decreased drastically since.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dbrier View Post
There is a very long and extensive thread about ringland failure on IWSTI.
Any how many are STOCK 2011's?
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:41 PM   #68
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there has already been 3 or 4 on iwsti, stock.. blown. 2011.
??

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/2-5-lite...wners-141.html
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:44 PM   #69
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i really wonder if the independant timing pulls on 2 and 4 is what causes the issue.
We all know 4 knocks like a mad man, and if you look at the ignition tables, that cylinder has the most advanced timing. Now i know, the theory is, the knock sensor is right there so lets "design" that cylinder to knock the most, that way the ecu sees it first and makes the correction.

But, what if the ecu is not sensitive enough to it and we just constantly get knocking in the # 4 cylinder.

I know some tuners level out the advance on all cylinders.
Anyone have experience with this?
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:46 PM   #70
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3 or 4 out of 3,000 in the US. Still not the pandemic that was 2008.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:14 PM   #71
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3 or 4 out of 3,000 in the US. Still not the pandemic that was 2008.
true... but i bet its somewhere around 10% of the cars see this failure between 0 and 20000 miles.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:18 PM   #72
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No way its anywhere near 10%, Subaru would be going under if that was the case.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:26 PM   #73
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According to the IWSTI survey (300 STI), 46% of the cars who detonated were from early MY2008. After that the number drastically declines and by MY2009 only 5% for each following year.

300 STI out of 12,000 produced (MY08-11), which is 2.5%.

And, only 35% of the 300 were stock.
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:54 AM   #74
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If you want to feel better go cruise around Mercedes or Chevy forums.... sure we have problems and it sucks that doing what you can to prevent it will cause your warranty claim to be denied, but it could be worse
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Old 04-03-2012, 05:50 PM   #75
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Early 2008 STis had a horrible tune which caused failures and early 2009 WRXs experienced failures not related to the tune. All the rest of the 2008+ WRX/STis have the "normal tune", which still isn't good for the motor due to the closed/open loop transition. The 2008 STi tune is not what people mean when they say "the stock tune sucks"; they're talking about the tunes that started in 2004 that have a lean spot until a certain point in the powerband. The 2011+ WRX and STi have this tune as well.

Last edited by SWP n Gold; 04-03-2012 at 06:57 PM.
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