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Old 04-07-2012, 05:14 PM   #26
smitty5788
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MAP is exchanging mine for ARP 625+ and I am paying the cost difference.
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:06 PM   #27
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Ouch. I just bought the H11 from Maperformance last month... I am lucky I didnt install them yet!
Sending MAP an email now.
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Old 04-07-2012, 10:08 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by YZ86 View Post
Ouch. I just bought the H11 from Maperformance last month... I am lucky I didnt install them yet!
Sending MAP an email now.
I am pretty pissed about it. I am supposed to be building mine this week I would be surprised if I get the replacements in time.

I cant believe no one has caught this before now.
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Old 04-08-2012, 01:24 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by project_skyline View Post
MAP doesn't even make their own stuff. They are a1 fasteners in case some of you weren't aware.

For a while you couldn't even get the torque specs on their studs, no one even knew.
Couldn't find torque specs?

Not only are they on the website, they are also easily received by making a simple phone call.

MAP Doesn't make their own stuff?

Fasteners, your correct we don't have the tooling and the access to tool steel so we don't make fasteners.

However we do build everything else with our name on it right in our facility. Minus kits that we put together that include others products from AEM, Earls, BAT, ETC ETC ETC. And two cheaper option manifolds, everything else is made right in house.

The studs, as the picture shows right on our website, are made by A1 technologies. Which is also who makes them for Cosworth, and are made right off the same program. So the issue presented here should be under a few different names out there.

Unfortunately I don't have a set available to check out for myself, I'm 1000 miles away and haven't made it to the stage of buying headstuds for my build yet. Though we have been selling Cosworth and MAP H11's for about a year, with no issues being presented until now.
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:02 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
Are they aware that this is not about the stud bottoming out, but it is about the lack of threads for the last couple turns?
Yes we are aware, its the lack of threads that doesn't allow the dogpoint to bottom out as it should.

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Originally Posted by smitty5788 View Post
I am pretty pissed about it. I am supposed to be building mine this week I would be surprised if I get the replacements in time.
Have you placed your order yet sir? If so you should have them in a matter of days as they are readily available.
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:15 PM   #31
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Emailed Maperformance on Saturday. I am waiting for a response from them now.
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Old 04-09-2012, 12:26 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by TwinscrollGT35R View Post


Here is a great book for all of you that want to learn about this type of stuff.
Agreed! If every engine builder were well versed in all of Carroll's books, the world would be a better place.
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Old 04-09-2012, 07:31 PM   #33
FuJi K
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Cosworth in first post.
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Old 04-09-2012, 10:53 PM   #34
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is the thread on cosworth little bit shorter too?
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:36 PM   #35
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Cosworth and map stud are made by the same manufacturer.

Chriscarey- don't you think the threading being too short on your studs is ruining the last portion of threading in our blocks? Wouldn't a shorter section of threading equate to all the stress going to a smaller amount of threads, in turn equating to a weaker clamping force?
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Old 04-09-2012, 11:52 PM   #36
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I agree that it is not ideal but we're talking about .200" of additional threads. Does that lead to weaker clamping force, possibly, but there are dozens if not hundreds of sets of our studs out there performing without issue. My biggest concern with these studs is achieving a proper, repeatable torque from stud to stud. All new sets will have an additional .200" of threads to address this issue, and we're doing our best to take care of any concerns from existing customers.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:05 AM   #37
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Way to take care of this MAP. So any set purchased from now on will have the proper amount of threads? Or all sets MADE from now on?
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:21 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisCarey View Post
I agree that it is not ideal but we're talking about .200" of additional threads. Does that lead to weaker clamping force, possibly, but there are dozens if not hundreds of sets of our studs out there performing without issue. My biggest concern with these studs is achieving a proper, repeatable torque from stud to stud. All new sets will have an additional .200" of threads to address this issue, and we're doing our best to take care of any concerns from existing customers.
Those were my concerns as well, the clamp force is not going to be decreased much at all by this defect.

I am happy with how you guys have handled this in my case. It is an inconvenience but it was handled well.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:31 AM   #39
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It is not just about clamping force... there is a concern with damaged threads as well.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:39 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
It is not just about clamping force... there is a concern with damaged threads as well.
Obviously threads are damaged due to this. It still comes down to torque consistency not strength of the block threads or anything like that. The torque inconsistancy is going to impact the clamp force much more than any thread damage.
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Old 04-10-2012, 01:13 AM   #41
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No need to be rude, but I see where you are coming from...

My first concern is that damaged threads will possible prevent me from reusing a block if I have to rebuild it. Minor concern I am sure.

Removing threads, or reducing the amount of threads properly engaged, is also going to reduce the clamping force. I have NO IDEA how much without doing the proper testing, but I feel this is a reasonable assumption.

Does this mean this situation is a deal breaker? I have no heard about many failures with these bolts, so I am leaning toward no.

ANyway, clamping force is affected by thread damage just as much as torque inconsistencies. In fact, thread damage CAUSES torque inconsistencies. Or would you suggest that chasing threads is a waste of time when torque values/ bolt stretch are critical to applying the proper amount of clamping force?
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:22 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
No need to be rude, but I see where you are coming from...

Removing threads, or reducing the amount of threads properly engaged, is also going to reduce the clamping force. I have NO IDEA how much without doing the proper testing, but I feel this is a reasonable assumption.

ANyway, clamping force is affected by thread damage just as much as torque inconsistencies. In fact, thread damage CAUSES torque inconsistencies. Or would you suggest that chasing threads is a waste of time when torque values/ bolt stretch are critical to applying the proper amount of clamping force?
That's being rude?

For starters having a few fewer threads engaged is not going to measurably change clamp force. Judging from the pic you have 3-4 fewer threads engaged if that ... bottom line no testing needed they are not related.

Secondly, I am pretty sure I indicated that the concern would be torque inconsistency which obviously would be related to the stud actually seating itself despite the shank entering and rubbing on the threads possibly preventing the stud from seating which from the pictures is not the case.

Lastly, I am not sure you understand that this is a stud not a bolt. The block threads will have little impact on clamp force.

But, this conversation is going nowhere.

Thanks for taking care of the problem MAP.

Last edited by smitty5788; 04-10-2012 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 04-10-2012, 02:31 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by TDagen;[URL="tel:36842550"
36842550[/url]]
Chriscarey- don't you think the threading being too short on your studs is ruining the last portion of threading in our blocks? Wouldn't a shorter section of threading equate to all the stress going to a smaller amount of threads, in turn equating to a weaker clamping force?

Less threads = less grip strength from less area the two parts make contact. Which at achieved preset torque could cause the stud to pull out of the threads/block. Course thread pitch also plays a roll. I'm not sure what the thread pitch is off the top of my head. But even so these are weaker then they should be.

I am sure someone here could do the math and find out .200" of less threads relates to holding torque on a torque wrench.


And I am sure its not a huge problem. But the devil is in the details and if your building a 400+whp motor. It might not be a bad idea to upgrade from these.
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Old 04-10-2012, 08:36 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TwinscrollGT35R View Post
Less threads = less grip strength from less area the two parts make contact. Which at achieved preset torque could cause the stud to pull out of the threads/block. Course thread pitch also plays a roll. I'm not sure what the thread pitch is off the top of my head. But even so these are weaker then they should be.

I am sure someone here could do the math and find out .200" of less threads relates to holding torque on a torque wrench.


And I am sure its not a huge problem. But the devil is in the details and if your building a 400+whp motor. It might not be a bad idea to upgrade from these.
I am glad that SOMEBODY gets it
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Old 04-10-2012, 10:32 AM   #45
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Way to take care of this MAP. So any set purchased from now on will have the proper amount of threads? Or all sets MADE from now on?
We don't currently have stock of either the chromoly or H11 studs as we were awaiting a shipment from A1, that gives them the perfect opportunity to address the issue so that any set of studs purchased moving forward will include the additional .200" of threads.
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:18 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by ChrisCarey View Post
We don't currently have stock of either the chromoly or H11 studs as we were awaiting a shipment from A1, that gives them the perfect opportunity to address the issue so that any set of studs purchased moving forward will include the additional .200" of threads.
so, what about guys that already have the incorrect set?
We have the motor apart right now, and were going to re-use the H11 set that we bought from MAP last year.

If they are wrong, wouldn't there be some sort of recall?
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:40 AM   #47
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We generally recommend against reusing head studs, but I would be happy to try and reach an amicable solution with you. Please email me directly so that we can discuss options, thank you. chris@maperformance.com
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Old 04-10-2012, 11:51 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Z0rr0 View Post
so, what about guys that already have the incorrect set?
We have the motor apart right now, and were going to re-use the H11 set that we bought from MAP last year.

If they are wrong, wouldn't there be some sort of recall?
Let's use your situation as an example.

Let's say they ship you the new revised studs and they are perfect. Now you have to install them in the block with .20" of threading all mangled/flattened. There is going to be no way to know what to torque them down to. Once they hit the screwed up threads in your motor case they are going get harder to torque down, which is going to screw with anyone trying to get the proper torque values to all the studs.

Besides even with the revised studs they aren't going to have the same holding power in your old block with screwed up threading as they would in a brand new motor case with fully intact threads.
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:03 PM   #49
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That was my point above. Keep in mind a thread chaser should be able to clean up the threads, but that .20" of threads will still reduce the amount of clamping force once there are no torque issues from mangled threads. How much? That is the question
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Old 04-10-2012, 12:13 PM   #50
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It is my understanding that the block side of these studs have no torque spec and are intended to be installed "hand tight", which should have occurred when the threads ended and the larger OD of the stud came into contact with the threads. Do you not feel that there would have been some resistance beyond that point and therefore excessive force in installing the studs to actually damage the threads?

There is no question that there is an issue with these studs, but we have used dozens of sets internally and haven't experienced any block damage...
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