Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday November 27, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > General Community

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 04-13-2012, 12:04 PM   #26
HinshawWRX
Medium Frank
Moderator
 
Member#: 140114
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Common Sense, VA
Vehicle:
2014 Porsche
GT3 (Currently on Fire)

Default

I for one see no problem with this at all. There have been COUNTLESS amounts of accidents this could be prevent. Plus there will almost always be a way to over ride stuff like this. And there is no proof showing any claims by the OP in that it won't let you burn out your awesome car.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
HinshawWRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 12:09 PM   #27
deidog
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 275470
Join Date: Mar 2011
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: nj
Vehicle:
11 wrx

Default

Overriding it could lead to some serious legal complications in the event of an actual accident.
deidog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 12:12 PM   #28
Bluefoton
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 141373
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Quebec, QC
Vehicle:
2008 2.5i-hatch -
now with a HID retrofit

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HinshawWRX View Post
There have been COUNTLESS amounts of accidents this could be prevent.
Seriously?
Bluefoton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 01:00 PM   #29
JohnnyG
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 164671
Join Date: Nov 2007
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Ottawa, ON, CA
Vehicle:
2009 WRX 265
DGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack ffr1846 View Post
If anyone can get to the page to comment on THIS regulation, please post a link. I couldn't get to it in half an hour of trying.
I can't find anything about commenting on this specifically, but I've got the following two links;

http://www.nhtsa.gov/nhtsa-dpmextn/j...mail_nhtsa.jsp

http://www.nhtsa.gov/Contact
JohnnyG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-13-2012, 01:08 PM   #30
JohnnyG
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 164671
Join Date: Nov 2007
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Ottawa, ON, CA
Vehicle:
2009 WRX 265
DGM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by damonchoy View Post
Read about this on Jalopnik earlier today, and I'd have to agree with them about it.

As long as they make the feature have the ability to be easily turned off, I'm okay with it... not that I have any plans of buying a new car any time soon.

EDIT: Link to Jalopnik story: http://jalopnik.com/5901512/why-nhts...n-onoff-switch
I agree with this as well, give us the ability to turn it off.
JohnnyG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 01:16 AM   #31
aerosaaber
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 33850
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Pittsfield, MA
Vehicle:
2006 WRX Wagon
WRC Blue

Default

I think adding complexity to allow mediocre or worse drivers to stay in the driver's seat is ridiculous.

If you as a driver can't shift a car to neutral and then apply the brake pedal, then you should either die in a fiery crash or not drive.

If you as a driver don't at least look at your tires before you get in the car you should have a crash due to under inflated tires or not drive.

Stop making cars safe for stupid people or more expensive for everyone else.

park assist? learn how to drive your damn car.
blind spot alert system? TURN YOUR HEAD

This is just one more stupid addition to make cars "safer" (ultimately a step toward "idiocracy" the movie)
You make something idiot proof and they'll just design a better idiot.
aerosaaber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 01:22 AM   #32
lordgrinz
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 293423
Join Date: Sep 2011
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Western MA
Vehicle:
2011 WRX Limited 5dr
WRB SPT/Stock

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aerosaaber View Post
You make something idiot proof and they'll just design a better idiot.
I use this term often in IT and programming, nothing seems to amaze me anymore.
lordgrinz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 02:04 AM   #33
Tony JDM
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 207532
Join Date: Apr 2009
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: NE WI
Vehicle:
1999 Impreza 2.5RS
Rusty Black Diamond Pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HinshawWRX View Post
I for one see no problem with this at all. There have been COUNTLESS amounts of accidents this could be prevent.
Name 6.

Is this proposing that if the brake pedal is being used, the gas pedal can not be used? Or are they proposing stronger brakes? BBK all the cars! 6 piston Wilwoods for everyone!
Tony JDM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 02:40 AM   #34
That guy in Maine
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 256642
Join Date: Sep 2010
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Maine
Vehicle:
NoGF thread knows
drama.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aerosaaber View Post
I think adding complexity to allow mediocre or worse drivers to stay in the driver's seat is ridiculous.

If you as a driver can't shift a car to neutral and then apply the brake pedal, then you should either die in a fiery crash or not drive.

Americans are lazy...

If you as a driver don't at least look at your tires before you get in the car you should have a crash due to under inflated tires or not drive.

Again Americans are lazy...

Stop making cars safe for stupid people or more expensive for everyone else.

park assist? learn how to drive your damn car. Americans are lazy...why should I have to park my car! My car should do it for me!
blind spot alert system? TURN YOUR HEAD Americans are lazy...they don't care about blind spots, they can sue you for being there!

This is just one more stupid addition to make cars "safer" (ultimately a step toward "idiocracy" the movie)
You make something idiot proof and they'll just design a better idiot.
That guy in Maine is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 02:42 AM   #35
SSAF
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 301923
Join Date: Nov 2011
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Burlington, MA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon
PSM w/crappy pinstripes

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aerosaaber View Post
This is just one more stupid addition to make cars "safer" (ultimately a step toward "idiocracy" the movie)
I am all for this if my dashboard ends up looking like this...

SSAF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 12:45 PM   #36
SpamBot
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 287534
Join Date: Jul 2011
Default

Did you people not read or comprehend my earlier post?

99.9% of you would never realize your car was equipped with BOS, because it would never have any effect on your driving.

The remaining 0.1% who actually have it activate will be glad it did, despite your self-proclaimed cat-like reflexes and practiced instinctual moves to put the car in neutral and shut the key off while in a panic situation.
SpamBot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 01:09 PM   #37
Cocoa Beach Bum
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17355
Join Date: Apr 2002
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack ffr1846 View Post
If anyone can get to the page to comment on THIS regulation, please post a link. I couldn't get to it in half an hour of trying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Camio_Fox500 View Post
You have to mail it in.
Details on how to submit one are on pages 84 and 85 of the proposal.
It will be possible to submit comments online via the website at www.regulations.gov. I cannot access that website using Firefox - I get a "Loading" message and nothing else. However, Microsoft's Internet Explorer is able to successfully access that website.

This notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM) will not be published in the Federal Register until Monday, April 16, 2012. That will start the clock on the 60-day comments window, which will end on Friday, June 15, 2012. Shortly after publication in the Federal Register, a docket with the ID of "NHTSA-2012-0038" will be added to the system at www.regulations.gov and you will be able to submit comments about this NPRM online.

Before you submit a comment, I suggest you familiarize yourself with the actual proposed rule. In particular, you should read the highlighted paragraph at https://www.federalregister.gov/arti...-systems#p-119.

You might suggest that NHTSA make explicit that there is no reason for a BTO system to intervene in the case where a clutch pedal is also depressed in a vehicle equipped with manual transmission. This would guarantee that heel/toe rev matching would not be impacted by this rule.

By all accounts, Subaru's BTO system doesn't interfere with an AT car building boost at the dragstrip startline or with an MT car during heel/toe throttle blipping during downshifts while braking. I can't see anything in this NPRM that would have an impact on Subaru's existing BTO system implementation.

Last edited by Cocoa Beach Bum; 04-14-2012 at 01:18 PM.
Cocoa Beach Bum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 01:43 PM   #38
FaastLegacy
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 11671
Join Date: Oct 2001
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Gilbert, AZ
Default

That'll make burnouts in RWD cars a lot of fun
FaastLegacy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 02:19 PM   #39
DansSpace
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 157029
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Las Vegas
Vehicle:
'13 Mazdaspeed3

Default

I like this thread.

I like how the OP wants a safety feature removed from vehicles so he can do some mad tyte brake boosting so he can get the hit while he's streetracing or whatever he's doing.

Think of the average american driver. Do you think a middle aged woman in her SUV is really going to think of turning off the vehicle or moving the gear selector into neutral? No. She's going to go "OH **** my car keeps going faster, HIT THE BRAKES TO STOP IT"
Regardless of what NASIOC seems to think, 99% of the people on the road don't give a flying **** about cars or how they work or what to do in an emergency situation. Getting rid of something that would save these people's lives so you can heel toe downshift and brake boost is ****ing stupid.
DansSpace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 03:18 PM   #40
Supraru
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 23313
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Collegeville,Pa
Vehicle:
99' 2.5Rs
black

Default

Everyone can thank stupid people for this. As sad it is to say it the POLICE officer that should have known better that was driving his family in his toyota and had an issue where he couldn't slow down the car then crashed and everyone died is to blame. Yes sad story indeed so don't think I'm being insensitive. This guy was a cop. They are supposed to know what to do in high pressure situations and he couldn't figure out to put the car in neutral or just turn his key off.

Fast forward to today. Now they are putting this system into cars. Honestly the first thing I thought of when I heard about it at subaru school is there goes brake boosting. Oh well I can still do it. I also remembered I was talking to a friend about it (brake boosting) and he said he couldn't do it in his 00' Audi S4. The next time I drove it the car would bog when I tried it. Never understood why....guess now I know. lol
Supraru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 03:19 PM   #41
Bluefoton
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 141373
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Quebec, QC
Vehicle:
2008 2.5i-hatch -
now with a HID retrofit

Default

And why would the said SUV brakes with brake assist be insufficient to stop the vehicle?

There's a quarter BILLION cars on the road in the US. This is yet again another idiocracy regulation designed to save a FEW lives per year, yet carpet-bombing half of the population for no reason. If we were to list the causes of death, I think we'd easily fill an entire toilet-paper roll of reasons written in font size 2.2 BEFORE we get to the case of WOT+brakes+OMG+tree.
Bluefoton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 03:33 PM   #42
DansSpace
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 157029
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Las Vegas
Vehicle:
'13 Mazdaspeed3

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefoton View Post

There's a quarter BILLION cars on the road in the US. This is yet again another idiocracy regulation designed to save a FEW lives per year, yet carpet-bombing half of the population for no reason. If we were to list the causes of death, I think we'd easily fill an entire toilet-paper roll of reasons written in font size 2.2 BEFORE we get to the case of WOT+brakes+OMG+tree.
Put yourself in the position of being someone that lost a loved one because of something related to a stuck throttle, then say that again.
Sorry your so caught up in being able to do ****ing sick ass heel toe downshifts on your way home from work that you think it's worth someone's life.
DansSpace is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 03:46 PM   #43
Cocoa Beach Bum
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17355
Join Date: Apr 2002
Default

At https://www.federalregister.gov/arti...-systems#p-366, NHTSA solicits comments on whether BTO systems should be required for vehicles equipped with a manual transmission.
Quote:
D. Manual Transmission Vehicles

In the proposed brake-throttle override system regulation, we have not made any distinction for vehicles with GVWRs of 10,000 pounds or less equipped with manual transmissions. There are cogent reasons why manual transmission-equipped vehicles might be less susceptible to crashes resulting from trapped pedals. Primarily, these vehicles have a clutch pedal which disengages the engine from the drive-wheels. This provides an expedient countermeasure for a driver in the event of a trapped accelerator pedal. Furthermore, clutch operation is not influenced by a stuck throttle the way that brake operation may be.

Compared to vehicles with automatic transmissions, pedal placement in a manual transmission vehicle may be different and the brake pedal typically is smaller. We do not know if these factors influence trapped pedal incidents, either positively or negatively.

NHTSA invites comments on this issue. If comments include sufficient justification for excluding manual transmission vehicles from the BTO requirements, and we are convinced that there will be no safety-related consequences, we will consider adopting that exclusion. Otherwise, we would not have any basis for excluding vehicles from the brake-throttle override system requirements based on their having a manual transmission.
Cocoa Beach Bum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 03:51 PM   #44
Supraru
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 23313
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Collegeville,Pa
Vehicle:
99' 2.5Rs
black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefoton View Post
And why would the said SUV brakes with brake assist be insufficient to stop the vehicle?

There's a quarter BILLION cars on the road in the US. This is yet again another idiocracy regulation designed to save a FEW lives per year, yet carpet-bombing half of the population for no reason. If we were to list the causes of death, I think we'd easily fill an entire toilet-paper roll of reasons written in font size 2.2 BEFORE we get to the case of WOT+brakes+OMG+tree.
It's the same reason there was a tag on a carry on bag I was looking at purchasing for an upcoming trip said something along the lines of "in the state of California it is said to be possible a plastic in this product could cause cancer" or something a long those lines. This was a piece of luggage. It's just some of the dumb stuff we have to encounter in our lives. I'm sure auto manufacturers have plenty more things they will do to cars that are dumb or us enthusiasts like.
Supraru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 04:11 PM   #45
Cocoa Beach Bum
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 17355
Join Date: Apr 2002
Default

At https://www.federalregister.gov/arti...-systems#p-244, NHTSA requests comments about whether there should be some kind of indicator to signal the driver that the BTO system has intervened and, also, whether a driver-operated kill switch for the BTO system should be allowed.
Quote:
We have considered whether it is appropriate to require that BTO activation be accompanied by a warning or alert to signal to the driver that BTO intervention has occurred. This could be in the form of either a visible or audible alert. We are not proposing that such an alert be required, but we request comment on this issue, specifically if there is any safety data that would justify such a requirement.

A related issue is whether it should be possible for a vehicle operator to manually turn off the BTO function. For example, a switch or control could be provided for that purpose, similar to on/off switches for disabling Electronic Stability Control (ESC). Alternatively, a manufacturer might design an “ESC off” switch so that it also disables the BTO. We are not proposing to prohibit controls that turn off BTO. However, if a vehicle is equipped with a control for turning off BTO, we believe that the driver should be warned that the system is off, and the system should always default to a “BTO On” state whenever the ignition is cycled. We request comment on whether a BTO Off function should be allowed and, if so, how it should function.
Cocoa Beach Bum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 04:14 PM   #46
equiraptor
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 300017
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Houston, TX, USA
Vehicle:
2012 WRX Limited
WR Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamBot View Post
99.9% of you would never realize your car was equipped with BOS, because it would never have any effect on your driving.
While I agree with this part....

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamBot View Post
The remaining 0.1% who actually have it activate will be glad it did, despite your self-proclaimed cat-like reflexes and practiced instinctual moves to put the car in neutral and shut the key off while in a panic situation.
I question your attitude here. I've experienced so-called unintended acceleration multiple times. The first time it happened, I was just 19 years old - still basically a kid (certainly one from a driving perspective). I had a significant speeding issue, so used cruise control pretty extensively. I had just gotten off the freeway and was entering the neighborhood. As the car reached 25 (the minimum speed for cruise in it), I pushed my thumb on the button to set the cruise. The car suddenly surged forward. My immediate response was "I just did something with cruise, let me tap the brake to cancel the cruise." As my foot moved to the brake, my next thought was "if that doesn't stop it I can turn the key to ACC and pull over right over there." The car slowed as soon as I tapped the brakes, but my right hand was already moving toward the key, just in case.

As I finished my drive home (without using cruise) I analyzed the situation. I had hit resume instead of set, and the car was obediently accelerating to 70mph - the last set speed. My first response of tapping the brake was absolutely right in this case (clearly, as it resolved the issue). My next thought of going for the key was due to the imprecise column shifter in the automatic I was driving - I found it difficult to hit neutral perfectly, when calm, so in the emergency situation, I was sure I'd shove the car into reverse. Both the car on which I learned to drive and the car I drove before this automatic had a habit of stalling, so I was accustomed to driving without power assist. (Anyone not accustomed to driving without power assist should go practice - it's not a big deal, but it's a bit surprising the first time).

I've since had various other cars exhibit "unintended acceleration". While that first case was caused by driver error, the other cases were stuck throttle pedals, stuck throttle cables, and similar. These were all manuals, and putting them in neutral was something I considered, but never something I needed to do. I was always able to either wiggle things loose or just brake enough to overwhelm the throttle until things got un-stuck.

Is having a car suddenly accelerate unexpectedly surprising, even a bit scary? Yes. Is it an excuse to panic, shut down your brain, and not do simple things like try the brakes, put the car in neutral, or turn off the car? Not for anyone who should be driving. If you can't handle it, you shouldn't have been behind the wheel of a car in the first place.
equiraptor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 05:11 PM   #47
Supraru
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 23313
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Collegeville,Pa
Vehicle:
99' 2.5Rs
black

Default

Also you see more problems with the people being dumb as well. I can't tell you how many Subaru owners I see with rubber mats over the factory mats. Clearly on the package in big black letters (at least stock rubber mats) remove floor mats that are there. This is the cause of 99% of accelerator pedals that stick yet people still do it.
Supraru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 05:14 PM   #48
Supraru
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 23313
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Collegeville,Pa
Vehicle:
99' 2.5Rs
black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamBot View Post
The remaining 0.1% who actually have it activate will be glad it did, despite your self-proclaimed cat-like reflexes and practiced instinctual moves to put the car in neutral and shut the key off while in a panic situation.
I think you're wrong. I also think your off in your .1%. There are plenty of times people are put in "cat like reflexes" type situations. It's not some super human instinct, it's common sense. Those who don't have any will crash.
Supraru is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 05:23 PM   #49
SSAF
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 301923
Join Date: Nov 2011
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Burlington, MA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Wagon
PSM w/crappy pinstripes

Default

No matter what, there will be "stupid" drivers behind the wheel. I don't mind safty features that prevent other people on the road from getting hurt from these drivers. I think the point of this thread though is the safety feature is less necessary on a manual than an automatic.
SSAF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-14-2012, 05:30 PM   #50
RossLH
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 147839
Join Date: May 2007
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: MD
Vehicle:
2003 WRX
SRP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
The 2012 also comes with a "black box" data recorder. If you mess with that do you think you are more or less likely to have increased legal liability if you are involved in an accident?
Every car with an SRS airbag system has such a data recorder, its nothing new.
RossLH is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Auxilary safeguards for oiling system on street car methaddict Built Motor Discussion 8 10-01-2010 03:35 PM
How to add LED light to factory security system OR when car is off? virjose Interior & Exterior Modification 11 05-20-2008 11:33 AM
Ford to make Electronic Stability Control Standard on all Cars & Trucks by 2009 NYCshopper Non-Subaru News & Rumors 20 10-10-2006 11:00 PM
Employee pricing on all cars on the lot at Georgetown Subaru kbcr3 Tri-State Area Forum 6 07-18-2006 02:49 PM
which system on motorswapped car? turbogc8 Engine Management & Tuning 6 02-24-2003 03:24 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:53 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.