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Old 04-15-2012, 02:11 AM   #51
Phatron
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I'm sorry for opposing you. You are correct.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:13 AM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron
I'm sorry for opposing you. You are correct.
I sense some sarcasm there
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:17 AM   #53
CatfaceType-R
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Nope, I've seen much higher boost than that in all categories, even 18+ at redline. No, I let the pros tune, I do look at what they do; I was tuned for 24psi peak and iirc ~>18-20 redline on vp109 on my vf'd STi.

Last edited by CatfaceType-R; 04-15-2012 at 02:33 AM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:23 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
I'm sorry for opposing you. You are correct.
Oh u, we still have many discussions to have before we are 6ft under, don't quit on me now

I see a lot of evo tuners keep down torque for their crap transmissions, by just tuning the Powerband is changed a bunch.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:40 AM   #55
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You proved me wrong. So I lose.
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Old 04-15-2012, 09:13 AM   #56
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I don't care for that vanity of right and wrong, it's about porting heads and the 18psi max hot air comments. Porting heads doesn't take 6-7 psi off your peak. I also wanted people to know that u can control your torque curve with tuning, so u can target up higher earlier for more boost than u would have been able to run with a peaky rise and fall tune.



This is a vf39 on 100 octane. From a looong time ago.

FYI, nothing is being said about asf not doing good work. Head porting means less boost yes, but 6-7 psi change is very large change. It can run more than 18 peak if it's ramped differently, and I am explaining how u need to tune the torque curve so u can not hit that wall so early. It's not normal to see that large of a boost drop, it must have to do with the torque curve. Dropping 4 psi from head porting means you are flowing a lot more air, 6-7 and I say it's gotta be partly the torque curve being so peaky(which again, is a great thing for some people)

Read below


Quote:
Originally Posted by racer135 View Post
I have seen many toque curves and some looks like the shape 1 and others as shape 2. Note that there are not any numbers of torque we are taking just about the shape. Ignore the RPM values.



Is the curve shape for torque mainly defined by the boost profile and not the tune? I think shape 1 is mostly created by MBC on good fuel when using a big boost spike vs shape 2 which is more common with ECU Boost do to more flat curve and not necessarily a boost spike. Is this correct or is it created by the tune?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Noize View Post
Boost, timing, fueling, and cam timing, turbo sizing, all of them effect it.

FWIW, I call shape 1 the "puke and die". When the IX came out and good Mivec tuning started popping up, you'd better and fatter torque curves since you can adjust the intake gear (like shape 2). Without optimizing it everywhere (like the VIII), it can only be optimized in one area. The factory cam gear settings on the VIII were optimized to the stock turbo at around 3000-4000rpm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by racer135 View Post
The interesting thing is that some of the curves of some tuners are always the same no matter the mods on the car. Something similar to shape 1 so that's why I think it follows the boost curve.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnBradley View Post
I would say in order: Boost (whether it spikes or just comes to a plateau), timing, cams/MIVEC. I have been able to keep consistent torque curves on both VIII and IXs. The intake manifold also plays an important role in the shape of the torque curve.
. Aaron from English racing is John Bradley. VERY smart guy

Last edited by CatfaceType-R; 04-15-2012 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:31 AM   #57
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Where's the boost curve on that plot?

Or this plot?

I don't see much proof except an excel graph that some guy with an Evo made.

If your only point is that you can change your tq and Hp with how you map the boost, timing and avcs......well duh
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:37 AM   #58
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Carmi, what's so hard to understand? The turbo is getting as much air at ~18psi into the cylinders as it would at ~25psi. Its out of breath. You always compare these cars to evos too. They're not even close.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:48 AM   #59
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its not even a fact that the turbos out of breath.....its the refusal to accept the possibility thats mind boggling though.

its like trying to discuss the possibility that there isnt a god with a religious person.

the discussion is pointless cause theres not going to be proof of anything on either side.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:49 AM   #60
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The max shouldn't be almost 8 psi less than what everyone else runs on high octane, just from head porting dude. It will run more boost if the torque doesn't hit so hard and early.

There is very little to learn on nasioc, the evo guys discuss the theory, which we just don't do.

Even asf said they could run more boost, just don't want to near that 100% duty cycle.
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Old 04-15-2012, 10:53 AM   #61
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im just gonna head over to evom and do some reading.

Last edited by Phatron; 04-15-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 11:15 AM   #62
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People's torque is dying thus is their horsepower so they claim oh, turbo is blowing hot air; I just don't agree that the turbo is the sole reason power is dropping, there is a dynamic of many tuning choices, etc.

Cliffs notes, I think the dropping torque from the early torque spike is making people think the turbo is blowing hot air, it's just a natural drop in torque from its equally peaky gain. The turbo can't make MEANINGFUL or power increasing boost when the torque is on the decline.

Also Ron is my friend, and a very safe tuner; he and I have had MANY discussions over the years, this is nothing new. I also love being wrong and learning, but this isn't the case this time, but I hope some misconceptions are made clear from the debate. When torque drops u can pump crazy boost and make
No power, it's the torque curve, which is based on the turbo as well so it's confusing. Tuning can change more than I use to think, before I researched the evo guys methodology.

Btw, vote for me for bench racer of the year, vote here @ www.upyoursudaldo.com

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Old 04-15-2012, 01:42 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soon2bblackongold View Post
When torque drops u can pump crazy boost and make
No power, it's the torque curve, which is based on the turbo as well so it's confusing. Tuning can change more than I use to think, before I researched the evo guys methodology.
I'm not exactly sure what you are arguing, but you've mentioned this throughout. Why is torque dropping? Do you think is strictly a tuning issue, mechanical or a combination? Are you arguing the old keep heat out of the system down low and get more aggressive up top thing or something else? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just trying to understand your point.
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Old 04-15-2012, 02:11 PM   #64
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The torque will drop early because the boost spike is early(naturally what the vf wants to do, so some tuners just go with that).

Also this porting isn't allowing 7-8 psi less run, maybe 4psi max. It can still boost more without blowing hot air at this power level. I know of someone making 30+whp and 50wtq. On a stock motor with the same dyno settings as asf. The VE didn't make the huge torquey peak, it's tuned that way. VE increases are across the board.
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