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Old 04-14-2012, 07:09 PM   #3501
jockeygolfs
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I will. I appreciate all the help. Sorry for all the questions.
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Old 04-15-2012, 01:57 PM   #3502
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I have now had 2 tuners advise me against using alcohol/meth water injection ... why?
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Old 04-15-2012, 03:29 PM   #3503
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Ask them for the reasons, I like to hear too.

I have heard tuners refused to tune a WMI car if it is not an aquamist. I could understand their reasons but if a tuner refuse to tune any WMI system outright, I would be very keen to hear their side of the story.
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Old 04-15-2012, 04:38 PM   #3504
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Ok, I won't quote who posted their reasons because I have not asked for their permission but here they are...

"I tend to not completely trust water meth injection. I prefer the accuracy of a fuel injection system. I tend to use it more as a safety feature then go all out for maximizing HP, Keeping the AFR pretty conservative and leaving a little bit of timing on the table as well. I Probably feel pretty similar to how your tuner feels about it. I just don't trust the accuracy of the system to go all out with it."

"Yes we can tune this vehicle for you. We can tune the Cobb AP if you want the unit or we can opensource ecu tune it if you don't want to spend the money on the AP. 300whp on this car usually requires some sort of exhaust to free up so air, a boost controller and a tune basically. Among other things recommend is a fuel pump ( wallbro 255 ). The top mount wont really add power but keep your power consistent in diff temperatures. I wouldn't recommend aquamist or any alky system. "
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Old 04-15-2012, 04:39 PM   #3505
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@ Aquamist... do you guys know any tuners in the Md. area who you deal with that would tune this car with your system?
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Old 04-15-2012, 06:35 PM   #3506
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These answers are the classics. It is not important to quote who.

We are probably the first company that offered an off the shelf system for the aftermarket industry in Europe since 1992 and 1997 to the US soil. From 1992 to 2006, we were the sole supplier to every works WRC (world rally championship) teams with the exception of the French team. Water injection was banned from 2007 by the FIA to reduce cost. Luckily for us, Subaru rally US continues to use our system to date.

Over the course of 14 years, we have proven beyond any doubt that the concept is sound and we manufacture reliable systems.

As from 1997 when the first batch of basic systems arrived in the US, we only sold a hand full. Some years later, tuners began to see the benefits based on what you mentioned above. 2001 has the beginning of our golden era, we could not made them fast enough to feed the huge demand. There were no other manufacturers.

By 2002, we started to introduce the fuel flow mirroring systems. At the same year, few copy cat systems started to appear, based on a pump speed controller (PPS) while we used a highspeed PWM valve to meter flow.

The market demanded more flow as customers demanded more power. We decided to add failsafe to all our US based system based with a turbine flow sensor. Something we designed and manufactured in house a few years earlier for the WRC teams.

To date, we still continue to develop our PWM-valve system with better fail safe whilst the PPS systems continues to serve the budget market.

Based on the your tuners comments, I really connot understand why the aquamist system is being put into the same category as the PPS systems with no regards to precision to flow and some don't even offer a fail safe option.

I know one great tuner in MD, Phil of Element Tuning. Please look him up. He is one of the pioneer of bringing water/methanol to the Surbau community. Let me know how you get on with him.

I am here full time to look after the end users, every two years or so I put on my salesman hat for two weeks, introdcing a new system.

Last edited by Aquamist; 04-16-2012 at 01:38 AM.
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Old 04-15-2012, 09:43 PM   #3507
methodically
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
These answers are the classics. It is not important to quote who.

We are probably the first company that offered an off the shelf system for the aftermarket industry in Europe since 1992 and 1997 to the US soil. From 1992 to 2006, we were the sole supplier to every works WRC (world rally championship) teams with the exception of the French team. Water injection was banned from 2007 by the FIA to reduce cost. Luckily for us, Subaru rally US continues to use our system to date.

Over the course of 14 years, we have proven beyond any doubt that the concept is sound and we manufacture reliable systems.

As from 1997 when the first batch of basic systems arrived in the US, we only sold a hand full. Some years later, tuners began to see the benefits based on what you mentioned above. 2001 has the beginning of our golden era, we could not made them fast enough to feed the huge demand. There were no other manufacturers.

By 2002, we started to introduce the fuel flow mirroring systems. At the same year, few copy cat systems started to appear, based on a pump speed controller (PPS) while we used a highspeed PWM valve to meter flow.

The market demanded more flow as customers demanded more power. We decided to add failsafe to all our US based system based with a turbine flow sensor. Something we designed and manufactured in house a few years earlier for the WRC teams.

To date, we still continue to develop our PWM-valve system with better fail safe whilst the PPS systems continues to serve the budget market.

Based on the comments above, I really connot understand why the aquamist system is being put into the same category of the PPS systems with no regards to precision to flow and some don't even offer a fail safe option.

I know one great tuner in MD, Phil of Element Tuning. Please look him up. He is one of the pioneer of bringing water/methanol to the Surbau community. Let me know how you get on with him.

I am here full time to look after the end users, every two years or so I put on my salesman hat for two weeks, introdcing a new system.
Thanks man... a lot of good information here. I will contact Phil... going to look him up in just a minute. My last question is with the known problems that subaru has had with the ring lands... do you feel your system helps even further along with the tune? Also... do you feel for adding power the alcohol or meth system is better to use. I have several dogs so them getting into some chemicals is something i'm a little concerned about, but alcohol evaporates so fast that it's not something i'd be worried about so I lean more toward that.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:31 AM   #3508
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Ring land issues...

Not familiar with issue specific to the subaru pistons, all cast piustons are prone to crack upon severe detonation, in particular the end frame variety. Some poston designs have machined grooves to trap fuel in readyness to evaporate towards the end of the flame propergating period. It is particularly handy for preventing the onset of knock by cooling this region.

Two adverse effects. Trapped fuel can dilute the oil on the bore serface and over-rich mixture towards the end of the burnt, this itself promote knock. I really do not know the truth but I can assure you the combustion technology continuious to evolve, take comments with a passing interest is the best way forward.

Introducing fine water droplets tpo overall cooling the combustion chamber works better than localised cooling by trapped fuel. Water has six times the latent heat capacity than fuel so the amount injected is small. Running rich mixture to minimise knock is a very old concept. Look at the latest DI engines, 12:1 AFR at peak power is a norm.

No doubt water is a very powerful coolant, over injection will rob power because it is slowing down the combustion process too much. Adding methanol to the mix will offset that effect. Unfortunely it is used far too often to mask the un-metered delivery by some systems. 100% water injection was used by all WRC teams to great effects. We do recommend the use of methanol mostly for anti-freezing purposes, less so for masking improper burnt rate.

Considered a well regulated injection system will have less ill effect and results are very predictable. We are only talking about a hundred dollar difference between a PPS and PWM valve system compatred to several hundred a few years ago.
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:49 AM   #3509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
We are only talking about a hundred dollar difference between a PPS and PWM valve system compatred to several hundred a few years ago.
From a post of mine on MSF a few months ago

To keep kits comparable

Devils' Own $375, Aem flow monitor $250 = $625 ish
Snow Stage 2 $423 + $250 = $673ish
Coolingmist with flow sensor $604
Coolingmist autolearn $649
Aquamist HFS-3 $699
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Old 04-16-2012, 02:26 PM   #3510
methodically
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
Ring land issues...

Not familiar with issue specific to the subaru pistons, all cast piustons are prone to crack upon severe detonation, in particular the end frame variety. Some poston designs have machined grooves to trap fuel in readyness to evaporate towards the end of the flame propergating period. It is particularly handy for preventing the onset of knock by cooling this region.

Two adverse effects. Trapped fuel can dilute the oil on the bore serface and over-rich mixture towards the end of the burnt, this itself promote knock. I really do not know the truth but I can assure you the combustion technology continuious to evolve, take comments with a passing interest is the best way forward.

Introducing fine water droplets tpo overall cooling the combustion chamber works better than localised cooling by trapped fuel. Water has six times the latent heat capacity than fuel so the amount injected is small. Running rich mixture to minimise knock is
a very old concept. Look at the latest DI engines, 12:1 AFR at peak power is a norm.

No doubt water is a very powerful coolant, over injection will rob power because it is slowing down the combustion process too much. Adding methanol to the mix will offset that effect. Unfortunely it is used far too often to mask the un-metered delivery by some systems. 100% water injection was used by all WRC teams to great effects. We do recommend the use of methanol mostly for anti-freezing purposes, less so for masking improper burnt rate.

Considered a well regulated injection system will have less ill effect and results are very predictable. We are only talking about a hundred dollar difference between a PPS and PWM valve system compatred to several hundred a few years ago.
Ok so I guess the meth/water 50/50 is the better choice over water and alcohol? Now my only other question is should I expect any degrading of any parts with the meth? I guess im asking is do I need to change any parts to accomidate the meth?
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:53 PM   #3511
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We tested all our components with 99.9% pure methanol.

Alcohol is a just generic word for the hydrocarbon chain with oxygen molecule/s attached. It is also open to interpretation with all blends of different alcohols mixes. Stay with 99.9 % methanol and distilled water with our product.

50/50 is recommmended for all seasons since you just want "fit and forget". Never use contaminate transfer pump or container laced with gasoline.

Rate of degradation:
Look at it this way, it you keep our recommended ratio with fuel flow, the actual amount of injectant is very small.

for example:
M50:W50 at 20% to fuel flow:

This what you will be injecting into the engine:
12 part of air
1 part of fuel
0.1 part of water
0.1 part of methanol:

Overall ratio to total amount of substance ingested by the engine:

Water .......... 0.1/13.2 x100% = 0.76%
methanol ....... 0.1/13.2 x100% = 0.76%

You can judge it by yourself how liittle is being injected, estimate the possible damage it can do to your engine. A normal engine in its life time ingest far more water from the atomsphere especially when it is raining. Water is the by-product of combustion, adding 1% more steam is unlikely to shorten the lift span of your engine significantly. All rubber (natural or snythetic) is pretty alcohol resistant nowadays due to the e85 fuel.

Last edited by Aquamist; 04-16-2012 at 05:54 PM.
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Old 04-16-2012, 03:57 PM   #3512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wychk99 View Post
thanks for the advice, i will check the wire out this weekend.
Any news?

Richard
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Old 04-16-2012, 05:31 PM   #3513
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I have contacted Phil at Element tuning. I am waiting for his response. I will let you know what he says. Thanks!
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Old 04-16-2012, 06:22 PM   #3514
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Please post any update on this.
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Old 04-17-2012, 02:16 PM   #3515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquamist View Post
Any news?

Richard
i took my cd player out and checked out the wire my tuner installed. the red wire is pretty solid on my cd player harness. i did a small test and get 100% consistence.

turned key to "On". waited till the DDS3 start up and ready on S. i turned on a/c. the DDS3 immediately restart.

so i m guess my tuner need to reroute the red wire to other source?
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:41 PM   #3516
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Can you following the recommended wiring diagram stictly?

Richard
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Old 04-17-2012, 04:43 PM   #3517
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i will talk to him to reroute the wiring. can you send me the diagram link for 07 sti?
thanks
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Old 04-18-2012, 03:20 AM   #3518
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Here is the link to the wiring harness, you need to log in.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/vbulletin/...6268#post16268
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Old 05-06-2012, 07:49 AM   #3519
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Just spent 5 minutes at legacygt.com. Why all the hate for meth?
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Old 05-07-2012, 09:13 AM   #3520
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Can you direct me to that discussion?

I believe there are people with strong views especially for those who did not have good experience on methanol injection in the past for possibly the one or more of the following reasons:

1. System did not match up to their expections from manufacturer's claims.
2. The system is not installed properly so delivery is not consistent.
3. Budget system with leaky fittings and without adequate failsafes.
4. Tuning difficulties caused by unpredicatable delivery due to poor linearity.
5. Unfair comparisons, the effectiveness between 85% alcohol (E85) to 20-25% alcohol (methanol injection).

All those problems are bundled together to give WMI a bad name regardless for of some manufacturers really tried hard to produce a reliable system. It is not the fault of the end users because they are not in a position to judge the difference, they can only go by the price and hype.
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Old 05-07-2012, 09:58 AM   #3521
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:41 AM   #3522
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These are quite old posts. I believe the guy called rao is quite unique, how he worry about flat-spotting the tyres so he out them on jack stands. Weird.

I have seen worse...

you mighty like to read:

1. This one
2. The sequel
3, Piston clip failure. Attributed by wmi.
.
.
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Old 05-07-2012, 02:12 PM   #3523
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Wiring diagram 2012 WRX?
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Old 05-07-2012, 05:59 PM   #3524
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Is this the same ECU as the 2011/12 sti?
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Old 05-07-2012, 06:06 PM   #3525
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That is what I am trying to verify. I would like to run a HFS-3 this summer but havent seen any other 2012 wrx owners with this install.
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