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Old 05-09-2012, 12:12 AM   #26
Obsessive
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
Your money is yours to spend as you wish, and my money is similarly mine. With regard to allocation of tax dollars, feel free to vote in your local elections.
Maybe I need to adjust my logic/rant. You're one of those dreamers who won't actually buy this thing - you'll just talk about it. Enjoy your electric bike.
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:13 AM   #27
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I always find it amusing that people on a car forum complain that EVs don't pay for themselves. Why didn't you just buy a base model Legacy instead of that EVO? It saves a ton on gas, the interior is way nicer, it's quieter, plus maintenance is much cheaper. You'd have to be a damn fool to pay more for a smaller car that gets worse gas mileage!
I dont give a **** about gas mileage. I think someone who would spend $50,000 on an electric mini-SUV would, though, and i was pointing out how foolish it is.

The only way i could see it being a good deal is if you put a crap-ton of mileage on a car every year, but then the 100 mile range wouldnt be very convenient in that scenario.
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:15 AM   #28
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And when the first Prius came out, people argued why buy it over an Echo.

Look who is still around today.

Progress didn't start out painless.

Cheers shikataganai for interest in something different and although not fully logical but innovative.
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:23 AM   #29
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I call BS. He's not going to buy it. Bump this thread in a year with pics.
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:38 AM   #30
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if this EV lasts until 156,250 miles, then you will recoup the $25k extra you spent on the EV Rav4 vs the Reg Rav 4 in fuel savings. And that is using $4 a gal gas and the 4 cyl/fwd models combined fuel economy rating of 25mpg as a bench mark. Not entirely impossible and would take a little over 4 years if you drove it's max range of 100miles EVERY day.

It only sounds like it's too much money but in reality if it's mechanically sound and lasts that long outside it's warranty then go for it.

Never thought any post of mine might defend an EV lol. But thats just the gas numbers. Don't know what kind of MX costs will occur before or after the warranty expires. Then again you'd also have increased electric costs, wonder how much those would end up costing.

Last edited by DivineStrike; 05-09-2012 at 01:35 AM.
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:06 AM   #31
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I dont give a **** about gas mileage. I think someone who would spend $50,000 on an electric mini-SUV would, though, and i was pointing out how foolish it is.
Enthusiasts spend extra on cars they want, go figure. EV, gas, diesel, whatever floats your boat.
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:26 AM   #32
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Sure I will agree that passion is usually the reason we buy one car over another. But it would seem there is no real reason to buy an Electric RAV 4 when a gas powered one will perform identically and cost half as much. Still it's your money and if electric vehicles get you off and make you smile then plug in and smile!
You nailed it: passion is why we're not all driving stripper econoboxes with crank windows and vinyl seats, or taking the bus/walking to work/etc. Anything above the bare necessities is a luxury, and different people have differing opinions on what luxuries come foremost. I'll explain my own motivations at the bottom of this post.

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You're one of those dreamers who won't actually buy this thing - you'll just talk about it. Enjoy your electric bike.
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I call BS. He's not going to buy it. Bump this thread in a year with pics.
It won't be a year, but rather 14 months: Our move back to Seattle isn't happening until June 2013. I won't bump this thread, but you can be damn sure there'll be a prodigiously self-bumped OT thread about it instead to draw in all the flamers as I am wont to do.

If you're doubting my resolve then you might end up disappointed. I was pig-headed enough to ditch my car entirely for 15 months back in 2008-2009, relying on that electric bike, the King County Metro bus system, and Zipcar for all my transportation needs. Over that year I used Zipcars for all of 22 hours in total. I think that shows that I'm plenty stubborn when I have motivation.

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Originally Posted by SVX WRX View Post
I dont give a **** about gas mileage. I think someone who would spend $50,000 on an electric mini-SUV would, though, and i was pointing out how foolish it is.
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Originally Posted by Hardrvin View Post
Cheers shikataganai for interest in something different and although not fully logical but innovative.
I, too, don't give a **** about gas mileage in the sense of how much it will cost to drive a given vehicle a given distance. Cost is not an issue for $50k vehicles independent of powertrain--I'm a physician. I'm not out to save the world, either. I've been down that road and found that it's a dead end, and I fully acknowledge that $50k personal-use vehicles of any flavor are far too expensive to be adopted in numbers sufficient to have a systemic effect.

Instead, my motivation is both to have a smooth, quiet, modern vehicle and to not use gasoline, in and of itself. Why? I figure that it's the most potent statement that I can make, as a private citizen, against our overseas wars and continual spillage of money from our country's coffers to those of Middle Eastern sheikhs. Recall that other N&R thread about the $590k Nissan Juke R? That plaything is going to be sold to those same sheikhs, and that's just obscene, imo. That Seattle happens to have cheap power is a nice perk, but most importantly I can pay $12/month to Seattle City Light to get 100% renewable (offset) power. Therefore I'll be using exactly 0 petroleum (or coal, for that matter) in running a future EV, including accounting for the power generation upstream of the outlet, and by extension will be contributing nothing to our "friends" in Iran, Dubai, the UAE, and Saudi Arabia.

Someone following along with my logic, as it were, might then wonder why I don't get a NGV, since natural gas is largely domestically (including Canada) sourced. That'd be a fine question, but suffice it to say that I don't want a Civic GX or a heavy duty pickup truck, the only OEM NGV options, afaik, and my wife (again the primary driver in our household) certainly doesn't want either of them. I'd also rather "refuel" at home instead of at commercial stations, although there do exist garage-bound devices to refuel NGVs at home.
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:49 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post

Instead, my motivation is both to have a smooth, quiet, modern vehicle and to not use gasoline, in and of itself. Why? I figure that it's the most potent statement that I can make, as a private citizen, against our overseas wars and continual spillage of money from our country's coffers to those of Middle Eastern sheikhs.
You know the US exports more fuel than it imports, right?
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Old 05-09-2012, 12:03 PM   #34
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You know the US exports more fuel than it imports, right?
you know that it imports the oil that makes up that fuel right? And that it consumes more of those imports than it exports?
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Old 05-09-2012, 05:31 PM   #35
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if this EV lasts until 156,250 miles, then you will recoup the $25k extra you spent on the EV Rav4 vs the Reg Rav 4 in fuel savings. And that is using $4 a gal gas and the 4 cyl/fwd models combined fuel economy rating of 25mpg as a bench mark. Not entirely impossible and would take a little over 4 years if you drove it's max range of 100miles EVERY day.

It only sounds like it's too much money but in reality if it's mechanically sound and lasts that long outside it's warranty then go for it.

Never thought any post of mine might defend an EV lol. But thats just the gas numbers. Don't know what kind of MX costs will occur before or after the warranty expires. Then again you'd also have increased electric costs, wonder how much those would end up costing.
Actually costs prior to that will likely be less since you don't need new brake pads, no transmission issues etc... Electrics are awesome except for the battery
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Old 05-09-2012, 05:34 PM   #36
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You seem a tad reactionary Shikataganai Anyway I will look forward to hearing about it. As I said I want something similar some day over the rainbow. I don't really want to purchase a vehicle unless I can plug it in. I have another 6 years though. Hopefully by then what I want will exist.
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Old 05-09-2012, 06:15 PM   #37
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It won't be a year, but rather 14 months: Our move back to Seattle isn't happening until June 2013. I won't bump this thread, but you can be damn sure there'll be a prodigiously self-bumped OT thread about it instead to draw in all the flamers as I am wont to do.
Just because you did it to me, Dr.
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Old 05-09-2012, 07:23 PM   #38
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You seem a tad reactionary Shikataganai Anyway I will look forward to hearing about it. As I said I want something similar some day over the rainbow. I don't really want to purchase a vehicle unless I can plug it in. I have another 6 years though. Hopefully by then what I want will exist.
I'm not the one holding onto vehicles for a dozen years. I think that's the radical course of action.
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Just because you did it to me, Dr.
I guess you haven't seen the word
Click to View Search Results for wont wont
used before?
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Old 05-09-2012, 09:40 PM   #39
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That's true but a simple car and a performance car are no the same thing. One offers far more fun. Sure I will agree that passion is usually the reason we buy one car over another. But it would seem there is no real reason to buy an Electric RAV 4 when a gas powered one will perform identically and cost half as much. It's like your choosing to pay twice as much for the same or really less performance. You can drive a regular rav 4 across the country.

Still it's your money and if electric vehicles get you off and make you smile then plug in and smile!

I love to drive a 42 year old car with triple weber carbs!
An electric car does not drive the same as a gas car. It's got a much different powerband and is much quieter. Don't forget you never have to go to a gas station and it needs next to no maintenance so limited dealer trips too. It's the ultimate appliance car if you don't need the extra range.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SVX WRX View Post
I dont give a **** about gas mileage. I think someone who would spend $50,000 on an electric mini-SUV would, though, and i was pointing out how foolish it is.

The only way i could see it being a good deal is if you put a crap-ton of mileage on a car every year, but then the 100 mile range wouldnt be very convenient in that scenario.
Considering you drive the most impractical mass market sedan on the planet I find your position laughable.
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:17 PM   #40
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I at the $50k Rav4, regardless of the driveline. Actually, I at all Rav4's.
Realistically, for those that are comparing it to the standard Rav4, this vehicle will probably have a much lower depreciation % over the next 3-5 years compared to the gas model.

Nick
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Old 05-09-2012, 11:22 PM   #41
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I'm not the one holding onto vehicles for a dozen years. I think that's the radical course of action.

I guess you haven't seen the word wont used before?
No, honestly I haven't.

Again - please PM me when you purchase this vehicle. I doubt your resolve.
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Old 05-10-2012, 12:22 AM   #42
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Hope it comes with a life time warranty on the battery pack like Hyundai.
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Old 05-10-2012, 03:45 AM   #43
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The best use for an electric motor will be one day when cheap compact cars will have them instead of an ICE assuming they can get the prices and charging times down. It will be ridiculously perfect for the cheap/female/young car buyer, no oil changes and no difficult maintenance on the motor.

My personal compromise due to changing gas prices will be to buy a relatively efficient but sporty car for my next ride, like a Focus. Still, someone needs to be a pioneer and buy an expensive electric cars to help make them cheaper and better in the future.
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Old 05-10-2012, 11:05 AM   #44
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Hope it comes with a life time warranty on the battery pack like Hyundai.
8/100 is the norm, as technically the packs fall under "emissions equipment" iirc . If one lives in California then it's 10 years!

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/warranty.pdf
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:37 PM   #45
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I'm not the one holding onto vehicles for a dozen years. I think that's the radical course of action.
True, but then I ride my bike and the bus, and still keep my car as well . I would argue that although you can't save the world, you can still make a difference because if more folks do those sorts of things it makes the facilities better which encourages more etc... also it makes gas cheaper and the road emptier which I like when I do drive.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:39 PM   #46
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8/100 is the norm, as technically the packs fall under "emissions equipment" iirc . If one lives in California then it's 10 years!

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/warranty.pdf
BTW you need to read the warranties. I got into a number of arguments about this.

Nissan specifically says they do not warranty capacity and thinks that it will lose capacity fairly quickly. They warranty power only.

GM IMO warranties the actual capacity.

Toyota followed Nissan's lead with the PiP.

I want the capacity warrantied as well if I am to buy a vehicle especially an electric. What good is it if you go from 100 miles to 20 miles range but can still hit the top speed.
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Old 05-10-2012, 09:55 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by DivineStrike View Post
if this EV lasts until 156,250 miles, then you will recoup the $25k extra you spent on the EV Rav4 vs the Reg Rav 4 in fuel savings. And that is using $4 a gal gas and the 4 cyl/fwd models combined fuel economy rating of 25mpg as a bench mark. Not entirely impossible and would take a little over 4 years if you drove it's max range of 100miles EVERY day.
What are you assuming for electricity costs in your math?
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:02 PM   #48
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I am assuming sarcasm with the $49,800? That is a lot for a RAV4 but not far from the Chevy Volt. MSRP of a Chevy Volt is $49,600 with the same tax credit. I don't know if personally I could drive an EV. I want to hear the motor, feel the power, etc. I don't doubt it's a nice ride since Toyota makes a quality car, just don't see the appeal of an EV. Gas would have to be 10$ a gallon to make me switch.
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Old 05-10-2012, 10:18 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by SVX WRX View Post
I dont give a **** about gas mileage. I think someone who would spend $50,000 on an electric mini-SUV would, though, and i was pointing out how foolish it is.

The only way i could see it being a good deal is if you put a crap-ton of mileage on a car every year, but then the 100 mile range wouldnt be very convenient in that scenario.
Spinning it in my favor:


I give a crap about gas mileage, but also enjoy at least a bit of sportiness.
I could have bought a GTI, but went with the Golf TDI. $25k, 40mpg's per tankful, and has enough low end torque to pull through the twisties. Oh, and 600 miles between fill ups.



Electric cars like the one we're supposed to be discussing, just aren't viable, practical, affordable, etc, for 99.9% of us. It's like this car will appeal to someone that likes to buy crap just to brag that they own it.

SCRAPPYDO nailed this one. If you want to spend twice as much, go ahead and spend twice as much.

But, EV's will evolve as time goes on.

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Old 05-10-2012, 11:42 PM   #50
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What are you assuming for electricity costs in your math?
Time to back of napkin it.

Assumptions:

- Average gas price over the next 6 years of $4 in today's dollars, which I personally feel is very conservative.
- Average electricity price of $0.10/kWh, also conservative and higher than the current Seattle City Light rates that range between 4.7 and 9.8 cents/kWh, iirc.
- 12k miles/year for each, even though that might be practically challenging to achieve in the EV due to the range.
- V6 4WD RAV4 Limited with navi/Entune as the relatively feature- and performance-matched gas contender, which gets 22 mpg combined and costs $29.9k before destination as described
- Single trim EV model, which costs $49.8k before destination and uses about 0.440 kWh/mile (based off of published Leaf efficiency * scaling factor of 1.2 for weight)
- An EV buyer with an adjusted gross income sufficient to qualify for the full $7,500 Federal tax credit ($55k for a married couple filing jointly), and who lives in Seattle, where EVs are exempt from the 9.1% (iirc) sales/use tax on new vehicles and EVSE is provided free by The EV Project. California's incentives are even more friendly.
- Charger efficiency of 90%, which is more than fair unless one's talking inductive charging

Gas price formula: 12,000 miles x 6 years * $X/gal / 22 mpg, which works out to $13,090 for X = 4.
Electricity price formula: 12,000 miles x 6 years * $Y/kWh * 0.440 kWh/mile / 90% charging efficiency, which works out to $3,520 for Y = 0.10.

Net "fuel" cost savings over 6 years and 72,000 miles = $13,090 - $3,520 = $9,570
Net initial purchase price difference = $49.8k - $7,500 - ($29.9k * 1.091) = $9,679

So the EV breaks even at just over 6 years, and that's before accounting for lower maintenance and increased resale value, the latter of which for used RAV4 EVs has historically been far greater than used gas RAV4s…

Despite all this, I still maintain that buying a $50k EV for frugality is a silly idea. If one wanted to be frugal, they wouldn't have been looking at 22 mpg, $30k cars of any sort in the first place, but rather combing the lower cost, more frugal branches of the automotive family tree. Again, though, frugality is not what I'm personally after.

Last edited by shikataganai; 05-11-2012 at 09:53 AM. Reason: I forgot about the tax credits and state incentives!
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