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Old 05-15-2012, 05:19 PM   #926
ocellaris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
There are a lot of anomolies, which is why you use the AVERAGE numbers, and they are close if not spot on to the Combined Fuel Economy printed on the label approved by the EPA for the AVERAGE driver entering their data on Fuelly.
The problem is that 36 MPG is supposed to be the AVERAGE highway MPG, not the absolute limit. Basically no one is up around there on Fuelly with many samples and cars that are past break in. With a lot of cars that have many samples, you can usually find some people (such as myself) that only drive highway and can beat the EPA numbers.

I think we will see some 36+ MPG full tanks this summer, but I would be surprised to see anyone get far past that. I have a 1K mile driving coming up in a few weeks. I hit 35.x MPG on the same trip last month. For this next trip my car will be over 10K miles and two oil changes into its life, plus outside temps will be warmer. Should be interesting...
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Old 05-15-2012, 05:53 PM   #927
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The problem with that is that the average combined mpg as shown on Fuelly includes the higher highway number or it would not be as high as it is (by high I mean hitting the estimated combined MPG)

Here's how to know whether I'm right about the MPG not rising even close to a class action case- see if a lawyer will represent you for free accepting payment only if you win your case.

Good luck, it ain't gonna happen.
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Old 05-15-2012, 06:01 PM   #928
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Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
The problem with that is that the average combined mpg as shown on Fuelly includes the higher highway number or it would not be as high as it is (by high I mean hitting the estimated combined MPG)

Here's how to know whether I'm right about the MPG not rising even close to a class action case- see if a lawyer will represent you for free accepting payment only if you win your case.

Good luck, it ain't gonna happen.
No one is talking about filing a lawsuit, its just disappointment.
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Old 05-15-2012, 06:28 PM   #929
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ocellaris

No one is talking about filing a lawsuit, its just disappointment.
Read a few pages back.
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:49 PM   #930
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Default Conservative odometer reading vs. liberal mpg reading

after doing some short tests comparing the odometer with GPS and google maps from time to time, and now today with a longer drive, i am convinced that my odometer is off in terms of reported miles traveled. it is my belief that this will partially or fully offset the error in the computers computed mileage which tends to be an overprediction of miles.

today i took a trip from the Bay Area to Monterey which turned out to be 76.6 miles each way on the odometer in spite of different paths on the monterey end to and from the freeway. Google maps reports that as 80.1miles* if i choose to map the exact route i drove. that is about a 4% error which is in my benefit for if and when i ever sell the car.

on fuelly, my average now stands at 29.0 mpg while the computer is reading 30.3 which is also in the 4% error range.

of course, a longer term average will show whether this hypothesis is right, but i think i may start feeling better and trusting my optimistic mileage computer

* in a relative sense, my old car (honda civic) was always within a small fraction of a percent of what googlemaps suggested the travel distances were.

Last edited by nubsub; 05-15-2012 at 11:33 PM.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:15 PM   #931
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Default First highway trip: 39+ MPG!

This will be long, but for the quick executive summary:

3.900 gallons, 153.2 miles = 39.3 MPG
the car computer read 39.0 (just changed from 39.3 when i entered the gas station). this is the first time it has ever underpredicted my mileage.

for those of you detail oriented folks like me, here is the detailed break down and analysis:

Conditions:
- warm: 60 - 85 oF according to car thermometer
- solo driver with only 20 lbs of gear in the hatch
- CVT Limited with 1420ish miles on odometer by trip end
- A/C used sparingly (~30-40 min out of 3 hrs of driving)
- over 90% highway (11.1 of above miles are not on highway)

Trip details: [using onboard computer numbers for breakdown which follows (onboard computer cumulatives shown in parentheses)]

Leg 1:
a. 2.1 miles in city ~23mpg
b. 71.9 miles highway driving 60-65mph ~42.1mpg (41.1 cumulative)
c. 2.6 miles city (bad stop and go) ~24.8mpg (40.2 cumulative)
Leg 1 total: 76.6 miles, 40.2mpg on trip computer

-car rested (cooled) for 3 hrs between trips (no blue light at startup but obviously engine cooled somewhat)

Leg 2:
b. 4.5 miles in city (medium stop and go) ~25.9 mpg (39.0 cumulative)
c. 70 miles highway driving 60-65mph ~39.7mpg (39.3 cumulative)
d. 2.1 miles in city ~27.0mpg (39.0 cumulative)

[obviously some of the short distances are going to be rough due to lack of precision in data available]

Conclusions:
i am thrilled with the mileage i got on this trip. admittedly, i drove extremely gentle...only exceeding 70mph (on flat ground) once to pass a truck to make my exit, and really tried to stay in the 60-65mph range with occasional visits down to 55mph as i tried to minimize gas usage going up hills and then actually coasted downhill a couple of times at 75mph. i was safe, but driving slowly. if i drove more normally, i'm sure i would get less. IMHO, this is the best i can do with this car without resorting to going dangerously slow or drafting trucks. i did pay attention to using minimal A/C and if i wasn't trying to optimize mileage, i probably would have ran it twice the amount i did on this trip. i hit a peak on the computer of 42.6mpg on the first leg but it drifted downward through a bunch of rolling hills over a 20 mile stretch.
also, as noted in my previous post, i think my odometer is off, so in reality that 39.3mpg is an underestimate of what this car did today.
compared to my old honda civic (2000 coupe) which i have driven this trip a number of times, i can say that the Impreza did very well, but not as well as the honda would have done with similar "light footed" driving. i could get 44-45mpg with similar driving style. that being said, i only have just over 1400 miles on the dial now, so if longer term break in is significant by 10k, maybe i could achieve higher miles.

all this being said, life is short. i will unlikely drive this way normally. i'll report back next time i take more regular drive, but i'm guessing 36mpg is achievable with my more normal 65-70mph driving and using A/C.


Footnotes:
- i tanked up at the same station using same pump. i always round to the nearest dollar. for the fill-up prior to trip, i put in 96 cents after click; after trip, only 59 cents of gas after click.
- as noted in a previous post, i am convinced my odometer is about 4% off in underestimating the distance driven. that would raise the above calculated mileage to a whopping 41mpg!

Last edited by nubsub; 05-15-2012 at 11:34 PM.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:53 PM   #932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nubsub View Post
This will be long, but for the quick executive summary:

3.900 gallons, 153.2 miles = 39.3 MPG
the car computer read 39.0 (just changed from 39.3 when i entered the gas station). this is the first time it has ever underpredicted my mileage.

for those of you detail oriented folks like me, here is the detailed break down and analysis:

Conditions:
- warm: 60 - 85 oF according to car thermometer
- solo driver with only 20 lbs of gear in the hatch
- CVT Limited with 1420ish miles on odometer by trip end
- A/C used sparingly (~30-40 min out of 3 hrs of driving)
- over 90% highway (11.1 of above miles are not on highway)

Trip details: [using onboard computer numbers for breakdown which follows (onboard computer cumulatives shown in parentheses)]

Leg 1:
a. 2.1 miles in city ~23mpg
b. 71.9 miles highway driving 60-65mph ~42.1mpg (41.1 cumulative)
c. 2.6 miles city (bad stop and go) ~24.8mpg (40.2 cumulative)
Leg 1 total: 76.6 miles, 40.2mpg on trip computer

-car rested (cooled) for 3 hrs between trips (no blue light at startup but obviously engine cooled somewhat)

Leg 2:
b. 4.5 miles in city (medium stop and go) ~25.9 mpg (39.0 cumulative)
c. 70 miles highway driving 60-65mph ~39.7mpg (39.3 cumulative)
d. 2.1 miles in city ~27.0mpg (30.0 cumulative)

[obviously some of the short distances are going to be rough due to lack of precision in data available]

Conclusions:
i am thrilled with the mileage i got on this trip. admittedly, i drove extremely gentle...only exceeding 70mph (on flat ground) once to pass a truck to make my exit, and really tried to stay in the 60-65mph range with occasional visits down to 55mph as i tried to minimize gas usage going up hills and then actually coasted downhill a couple of times at 75mph. i was safe, but driving slowly. if i drove more normally, i'm sure i would get less. IMHO, this is the best i can do with this car without resorting to going dangerously slow or drafting trucks. i did pay attention to using minimal A/C and if i wasn't trying to optimize mileage, i probably would have ran it twice the amount i did on this trip. i hit a peak on the computer of 42.6mpg on the first leg but it drifted downward through a bunch of rolling hills over a 20 mile stretch.
also, as noted in my previous post, i think my odometer is off, so in reality that 39.3mpg is an underestimate of what this car did today.
compared to my old honda civic (2000 coupe) which i have driven this trip a number of times, i can say that the Impreza did very well, but not as well as the honda would have done with similar "light footed" driving. i could get 44-45mpg with similar driving style. that being said, i only have just over 1400 miles on the dial now, so if longer term break in is significant by 10k, maybe i could achieve higher miles.

all this being said, life is short. i will unlikely drive this way normally. i'll report back next time i take more regular drive, but i'm guessing 36mpg is achievable with my more normal 65-70mph driving and using A/C.


Footnotes:
- i tanked up at the same station using same pump. i always round to the nearest dollar. for the fill-up prior to trip, i put in 96 cents after click; after trip, only 59 cents of gas after click.
- as noted in a previous post, i am convinced my odometer is about 4% off in underestimating the distance driven. that would raise the above calculated mileage to a whopping 41mpg!
there ya have it well done. Must be the drivers.
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:59 AM   #933
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Originally Posted by nubsub View Post
Hopelessly incomplete (more when I get home) but I had to report on the first leg f my first highway trip. Very pleased:

77 miles and computer shows 40.2 mpg. Was 41.1 when I left highway and then encountered 3 miles of stop and go. Was as High as 42.6 after 40 miles but rolling hills dropped the average.

I was diligent to keep 60-65mph as my speed.

Not bad!
Sounds great, and a report like this (40 mpg on trip computer from Boston to western MA- with a gain in altitude!) I heard at the dealer, photo included, had me pretty excited about the great mileage I was going to get. Reality check: my trip computer has reported from min 1.7 max 2.6 avg 2.3 mpg higher than calculated the old-fashioned way at fillup. I just passed 2k miles.

The 38 mpg this would be on my car is still great. My own data will be going on to fuelly sometime soon.
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Old 05-16-2012, 01:16 AM   #934
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Originally Posted by chicagocpo

Sounds great, and a report like this (40 mpg on trip computer from Boston to western MA- with a gain in altitude!) I heard at the dealer, photo included, had me pretty excited about the great mileage I was going to get. Reality check: my trip computer has reported from min 1.7 max 2.6 avg 2.3 mpg higher than calculated the old-fashioned way at fillup. I just passed 2k miles.

The 38 mpg this would be on my car is still great. My own data will be going on to fuelly sometime soon.
See my full report after the one you reference. if google maps is correct, my actual mileage was over 41mpg.

In general, the computer has been higher than my hand calculated mileage. Ave is 1.3mpg. However, today, the hand calculated was higher than the computer, for the first time in 6 fill ups. (0.3mpg)

Again, it seems my odometer is consistently lower than gps and google maps. I had thought it was 2-5% based on short trips. But today's difference gives me some confidence that it's regularly under reporting by 4%. If that is the case, then it, on average cancels out the generally optimistic car mileage computer.

I know the limited wheels are a smidge bigger in diameter than the base model, but that's a half percent difference.
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Old 05-16-2012, 06:55 AM   #935
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People who don't think the car is capable of getting close to the Highway MPG first need to drive on the highway, then repeat my MPG test over 9 miles, 15 miles, or 50 miles (the distance does not matter, but you need at least 9 miles to see you are achieving an average that will be consistent). Don't do this climbing Mount Washington, but I wasn't on flat ground when I did my test, because there is no flat ground in upstate NY.

If you reset the trip meter once you are up to speed, with cruise on and the AC on or off (about a 1-2mpg less with AC on), after a couple of miles you will magically see your mpg gauge kick out an average MPG exceeding 36mpg.

If you don't see that, report back.
If you do see 36mpg+, admit your car can do what you keep saying it cannot.

If the car is capable of 36mpg+ on the highway then the driving style is the main factor, and if all you drive is City -- don't complain you aren't getting 36mpg average mpg.

Remember, your City number is also an Average -- the expected number for most drivers is the number printed below that big number on the label, and on my Sport that means 20-30mpg, and I have certainly been exceeding the lower number (and if you read the posts and look over the numbers on Fuelly, so have many of the people who are complaining about the City mileage).

I honestly believe 3,000 miles on the engine is enough to see good MPG, because I track mine and that was the magic window. Of course it is also warmer. If your main concern is MPG, don't buy a new car in the winter.

Last edited by Zeeper; 05-16-2012 at 07:00 AM.
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Old 05-16-2012, 09:02 AM   #936
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Originally Posted by nubsub View Post
See my full report after the one you reference. if google maps is correct, my actual mileage was over 41mpg.

In general, the computer has been higher than my hand calculated mileage. Ave is 1.3mpg. However, today, the hand calculated was higher than the computer, for the first time in 6 fill ups. (0.3mpg)

Again, it seems my odometer is consistently lower than gps and google maps. I had thought it was 2-5% based on short trips. But today's difference gives me some confidence that it's regularly under reporting by 4%. If that is the case, then it, on average cancels out the generally optimistic car mileage computer.

I know the limited wheels are a smidge bigger in diameter than the base model, but that's a half percent difference.
I checked this today, because I know with my last car, my commute was 28.5 miles according to it. With the Impreza today it recorded 27.7 miles, and my GPS was over 28 miles and I figured it was close to turning 29 miles (no decimals on it). If my last car and GPS are accurate, then my Impreza should be getting about 1mpg better than I am calculating if I am remembering my Jr High math correctly.

Last edited by Haunty; 05-16-2012 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 05-16-2012, 09:54 AM   #937
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I will try to remember to do a gps run, I have a handheld one that calculates down to 1/100th of a mile, and is quite accurate (usually within 6-10 feet once locked). What I've done in the past is reset both the car and gps to 0, then when I arrive at my destination find a place (like an empty parking lot) and drive slowly until the car turns to its next 10th of a mile. Take those numbers to find the true difference between the ODO and actual miles traveled. I did this once shortly after we bought our impreza and found the ODO to under-report actual distance by just shy of 2% (meaning 30mpg calculated from the pump would actually be 30.6mpg, or 102 actual miles traveled for every 100 shown on the ODO).

I'll be doing the same test with our new fiat 500, so will try and do the same for both cars!
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Old 05-16-2012, 11:35 AM   #938
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I've had my Impreza for 2 weeks now and reset the trip counter as I drove off. In this time, I am clocking at 25.5 MPG. 95% of my driving has been in stop-and-go city traffic and the 5% on a highway. I have to gun it regularly at stoplights to make sure I don't get stuck at the next light.

Very happy with the MPG on this AWD car!
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:11 PM   #939
nubsub
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Originally Posted by Haunty View Post
I checked this today, because I know with my last car, my commute was 28.5 miles according to it. With the Impreza today it recorded 27.7 miles, and my GPS was over 28 miles and I figured it was close to turning 29 miles (no decimals on it). If my last car and GPS are accurate, then my Impreza should be getting about 1mpg better than I am calculating if I am remembering my Jr High math correctly.
yep: you remembered your math pretty well almost 3% difference from your last car. if you have time and your route isn't too complicated, see what googlemaps says for the distance. (28.9, just for grins for your GPS gets you in the 4% ballpark of mine)
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:15 PM   #940
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Originally Posted by pxpaulx View Post
I will try to remember to do a gps run, I have a handheld one that calculates down to 1/100th of a mile, and is quite accurate (usually within 6-10 feet once locked). What I've done in the past is reset both the car and gps to 0, then when I arrive at my destination find a place (like an empty parking lot) and drive slowly until the car turns to its next 10th of a mile. Take those numbers to find the true difference between the ODO and actual miles traveled. I did this once shortly after we bought our impreza and found the ODO to under-report actual distance by just shy of 2% (meaning 30mpg calculated from the pump would actually be 30.6mpg, or 102 actual miles traveled for every 100 shown on the ODO).

I'll be doing the same test with our new fiat 500, so will try and do the same for both cars!
definitely, please report back. i think several people have reported underrecording odometers. again, this is overall a good thing in terms of a car's value on the resale market (i usually keep my cars a long time so it doesn't matter much to me), but of course bad for bragging rights about a cars longevity

i have lots of other shorter records, but for my commute to the train station, i clock in at 4.1 or 4.2 miles. i used to always see 4.3 or 4.4 on my old car. google maps says it's 4.4mi.

so i think my 4% "longer trip" comparison is consistent and probably a good indicator of how far off my odometer reads.

aside: i haven't checked my speedometer a lot, but for moderate speeds (<40) it seems spot on to the GPS measurements i had as well as those "speed checks" that they have around town.
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:15 PM   #941
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Originally Posted by CraigHwk View Post
I've had my Impreza for 2 weeks now and reset the trip counter as I drove off. In this time, I am clocking at 25.5 MPG. 95% of my driving has been in stop-and-go city traffic and the 5% on a highway. I have to gun it regularly at stoplights to make sure I don't get stuck at the next light.

Very happy with the MPG on this AWD car!
glad you like it. your numbers seem consistent with my stop and go driving numbers although they can be lower when the car is cold and not fully warmed up.
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:19 PM   #942
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another "cold start" mileage check with a new fill up which is consistent with my test last week:

- car starts with 3.3mi and 25.5mpg.
- end of commute, it is at 7.4 mi and 24.0mpg.

that gives me 22.9mpg for my 4.1mi commute to the train station, starting with a cold engine (in a 70 oF garage). (this is all computer reported numbers; not to mention my underpredicting odometer.)

but to beat dead horse, this car, with 5+ qts of oil takes a while to warm up relative to other econo-boxes with smaller oil capacities.
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:46 PM   #943
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Just made it home from my 1,442 mile trip

Overall average was 30.5. Coming home I averaged better for some reason (32.1) while the readout said 33.3. Coming home I had an extra passenger plus luggage. When I left michigan I was on I75 and for 23.6 miles I averaged 40.5 according to the readout! Unfortunetly I hit traffic and never saw that again. Overall, I'm happy with the mpgs. PA is filled with alot of hills and that killed my mpgs. Had it not been for them I believe I could have easily hit 36mpg.

I made it 172 miles on a quarter tank of gas and then it dropped off pretty quick. Anyone else notice this?
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Old 05-16-2012, 12:53 PM   #944
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Just made it home from my 1,442 mile trip

Overall average was 30.5. Coming home I averaged better for some reason (32.1) while the readout said 33.3. Coming home I had an extra passenger plus luggage. When I left michigan I was on I75 and for 23.6 miles I averaged 40.5 according to the readout! Unfortunetly I hit traffic and never saw that again. Overall, I'm happy with the mpgs. PA is filled with alot of hills and that killed my mpgs. Had it not been for them I believe I could have easily hit 36mpg.

I made it 172 miles on a quarter tank of gas and then it dropped off pretty quick. Anyone else notice this?
Cavlr: i probably have asked before but: when was your car built? do you have the latest updates?

what kinds of speeds were your driving? with A/C?

have you done any odometer checks against GPS or online maps (googlemaps, for eg)?

to answer your question: yes, the gauge is not very linear. i had all bars full until around 68miles yesterday. i looked at the movie i took yesterday. with my 153.2mi trip averaging 39.3/41.1 (depending on how its calculated/estimated), it was showing 3/4 a tank (i think it had only recently fallen to the third missing bar).

the computer also reported at that time that i could go another 400 miles!
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Old 05-16-2012, 01:13 PM   #945
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Originally Posted by nubsub View Post
yep: you remembered your math pretty well almost 3% difference from your last car. if you have time and your route isn't too complicated, see what googlemaps says for the distance. (28.9, just for grins for your GPS gets you in the 4% ballpark of mine)
Google maps says 28.3 miles
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Old 05-16-2012, 01:20 PM   #946
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Google maps says 28.3 miles
cool. that's 2%. i hope others can also report back.

for me, i've seen a fair bit of variability using google maps. anywhere from 2-5% but definitely, always an underprediction of distance for my driving. i think longer trips like your 28 mile trip are better for getting some accurate statistics as oppposed to many of my prior 4-10mi comparisons.

the cool thing is that it effectively cancels out any overprediction by the car's mpg computer reported by most people (1-2mpg).

of course, that makes all of our fuelly numbers look worse than they really are!
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Old 05-16-2012, 01:40 PM   #947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nubsub View Post
Cavlr: i probably have asked before but: when was your car built? do you have the latest updates?

what kinds of speeds were your driving? with A/C?

have you done any odometer checks against GPS or online maps (googlemaps, for eg)?

to answer your question: yes, the gauge is not very linear. i had all bars full until around 68miles yesterday. i looked at the movie i took yesterday. with my 153.2mi trip averaging 39.3/41.1 (depending on how its calculated/estimated), it was showing 3/4 a tank (i think it had only recently fallen to the third missing bar).

the computer also reported at that time that i could go another 400 miles!
My car was built in Feb. I'm assuming it has the latest updates, but I'll be taking it in for an oil change within the next couple weeks, so I'll ask them.

I had the a/c on for about 90% of the trip.

We used my friends GPS and the speed was actually spot on with the GPS.

When I do city driving I usually get about 30-40 miles per bar, atleast to start out with. I actually found the range readout to be more accurate than the gas gauge. When I filled up before I left it was 360 miles. When I got to state college and filled up, it said 430 and then for the rest of the trip it was 430-440. When I stopped to get gas early this morning, I had a quarter tank but I knew I was well into one of those bars and the range was 120. Judging by my calculations it was possible. Had it not been very early this morning, I would have tested the range.
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Old 05-16-2012, 01:51 PM   #948
nubsub
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Originally Posted by carlvr87 View Post
My car was built in Feb. I'm assuming it has the latest updates, but I'll be taking it in for an oil change within the next couple weeks, so I'll ask them.

I had the a/c on for about 90% of the trip.

We used my friends GPS and the speed was actually spot on with the GPS.

When I do city driving I usually get about 30-40 miles per bar, atleast to start out with. I actually found the range readout to be more accurate than the gas gauge. When I filled up before I left it was 360 miles. When I got to state college and filled up, it said 430 and then for the rest of the trip it was 430-440. When I stopped to get gas early this morning, I had a quarter tank but I knew I was well into one of those bars and the range was 120. Judging by my calculations it was possible. Had it not been very early this morning, I would have tested the range.
i don't use the range estimate much as it was really wacky when i first got the car, but i've now come to appreciate that it must account for both current data and historical driving data. even though i was getting 24mpg on my first few miles of my current tank, it still thinks i can go 510miles based, supposedly on my stellar trip yesterday. i'm sure that estimate will go down.

my speed has been spot on GPS wise, but what i was asking about was distance traveled. those two numbers, so it seems, are not based on the same calculation as far as i can tell. my odometer it measuring ~4% too few miles for the real distance covered if googlemaps and my prior car are to be trusted.
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Old 05-16-2012, 02:10 PM   #949
carlvr87
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I tracked the mileage going to state college on saturday and it was off by .2 miles. I actually forgot to track it for the rest of the trip, so I can't really say.
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Old 05-16-2012, 02:19 PM   #950
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I tracked the mileage going to state college on saturday and it was off by .2 miles. I actually forgot to track it for the rest of the trip, so I can't really say.
0.2 miles over what distance? thanks!
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