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Old 06-01-2012, 02:54 PM   #1
2JZ
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Default Negative Camber: When is there ever to much?

I have Whitleline COM-C top hats and camber bolts on the bottom and got a whopping negative 3.0 camber in the front of my wagon.

The alignment was free and I didn't want that much but he was busy and had to let me go.

Results? From -0.7 to -3.0 is night and day. The car handles so much better, however it is a little violent now. Before it would do a oversteer slide gradually. Getting the car to break traction and oversteer is a little more snappier and dangerous.

I imagine tire wear is going to be insane... I'm thinking of ordering new OEM bottom bolts, throwing the camber bolts out and going to something like -1.8.

Anyone ever run -3.0 on their daily driver? I'm worried my tires are going to disappear.
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Old 06-01-2012, 03:09 PM   #2
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That's too much on a DD IMO. I would do ~2F and ~1.5-1.75R. As long as the toe is good tire wear shouldn't be much of an issue.
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Old 06-01-2012, 03:10 PM   #3
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^^ What he said.
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Old 06-01-2012, 03:18 PM   #4
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Im running -4 on all 4 corners tucking 18x10 255/35/18's, tire wear is insane. And this is my DD

Putting on fender flares so I can back it off to -2F -1R
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:02 PM   #5
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How are your top hats oriented?

It is possible to have them positioned for max camber, or max castor, or in between. You may not need a second set of camber bolts and have the benifit of more castor.

Last edited by Web Foot STi; 06-02-2012 at 12:35 AM. Reason: Missed an "or".
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:36 PM   #6
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It's toe that increase tire wear, not camber.

I run 0* toe all around and -3* up front, my tire wear is perfectly fine.

If you're at 0* toe, you'll be fine.
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Old 06-01-2012, 10:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeBop86 View Post
It's toe that increase tire wear, not camber.

I run 0* toe all around and -3* up front, my tire wear is perfectly fine.

If you're at 0* toe, you'll be fine.
What he said, I've been running -3 on my daily driver for years, with zero toe the wear is very even.
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Old 06-01-2012, 11:39 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Foot STi View Post
How are your top hats oriented?

It is possible to have them positioned for max camber, max castor, or in between. You may not need a second set of camber bolts and have the benifit of more castor.
It is possible to have a minimum negative camber increase and maximum caster. Or Maximum caster and maximum camber.

At max caster, max negative camber, no camber bolts, and OE camber bolts set at MAX positive you get about -0.7
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Old 06-02-2012, 12:36 AM   #9
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^ I missed an "or".
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Old 06-02-2012, 01:18 AM   #10
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Quote:
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^^ What he said.
you mean what "you said". You posted your thoughts and posted again saying that
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Old 06-02-2012, 01:20 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Web Foot STi View Post
^ I missed an "or".
For the top hats the caster is ALWAYS set at maximum. If you do not require any further negative camber, that's what it's for. However, if you need both they offer that as well. I think these top hats are more for caster if anything.

Last edited by 2JZ; 06-02-2012 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 06-02-2012, 01:21 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeBop86 View Post
It's toe that increase tire wear, not camber.

I run 0* toe all around and -3* up front, my tire wear is perfectly fine.

If you're at 0* toe, you'll be fine.
How is driving in the rain? I found it quite bad. I had significantly less grip, I felt much more comfortable with less camber in the rain. This was a nice warning sign for reducing the camber for the winter...

Or perhaps the tread pattern is not that good and i may need better tires.
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Old 06-02-2012, 02:30 AM   #13
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I'd say it's your tires.

I'm running 255/40/17 Dunlop Direzza Z1's... plenty of grip in Washington weather
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Old 06-02-2012, 02:55 AM   #14
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people will disagree with me but running oodles of camber is not necessary. I was running -3.5 for a couple months while my com C's were being warrantied and I was using a different setup. Granted, i was running only -.5 in the rear but I still found it not particularly useful to have such aggressive camber.

If your goal is to fit really wide wheels and tires then maybe it's a good idea but I am using stock size wheels. I have settled on -2.3 and I find that to be great with my com-C's set to max caster.

tire wear will be based on toe and driving style.
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Old 06-02-2012, 03:24 AM   #15
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It all depends on what your application is.

I autoX a lot, so I benefit from tons of negative camber.

If all you do is street driving, you'll benefit from less camber.
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Old 06-02-2012, 06:47 AM   #16
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when i went to ~ +6* caster, i went from -2.9* camber to ~ -2.4* and it was much better in the wet/rain and the braking wasnt as 'squirrely' at the limit
never missed the camber really

more pos caster rocks

make sure toe is 0
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Old 06-02-2012, 09:27 AM   #17
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I have ~-2.3Frt and it wear quite a bit on the inside even with 4-5 track days a year. I diled back to -1.8 and it is much better now.
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:30 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BeBop86 View Post
It's toe that increase tire wear, not camber.

I run 0* toe all around and -3* up front, my tire wear is perfectly fine.

If you're at 0* toe, you'll be fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JDwhiteWRX View Post
What he said, I've been running -3 on my daily driver for years, with zero toe the wear is very even.
These sorts of comments invariably come up when people talk about running lots of negative camber. There's more to tire wear than just keep toe at 0. If someone does a lot of highway driving and not a whole lot of back roads / surface street driving then lots of negative camber will most definitely lead to uneven tire wear. Been there, done that.
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Old 06-02-2012, 12:29 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post
when i went to ~ +6* caster, i went from -2.9* camber to ~ -2.4* and it was much better in the wet/rain and the braking wasnt as 'squirrely' at the limit
never missed the camber really

more pos caster rocks

make sure toe is 0
This sounds great. Any idea what caster these COM-C top hats are offering me at the moment? And what's a cheap way to add more caster? I guess STI lower control arms?

Believe it or not, in the rain ABS was TERRIBLE.
I was driving down an empty street with 3 stop signs. I thresheld braked last second to the stop sign and made it easily everytime. Last stop sign I wanted to try the ABS and I was sliding right through the intersection.
I wonder what mods would have affected this poor performance.
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Old 06-02-2012, 04:34 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2JZ

This sounds great. Any idea what caster these COM-C top hats are offering me at the moment? And what's a cheap way to add more caster? I guess STI lower control arms?

Believe it or not, in the rain ABS was TERRIBLE.
I was driving down an empty street with 3 stop signs. I thresheld braked last second to the stop sign and made it easily everytime. Last stop sign I wanted to try the ABS and I was sliding right through the intersection.
I wonder what mods would have affected this poor performance.
Look into a whiteline anti lift kit.
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Old 06-02-2012, 11:51 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2JZ View Post
you mean what "you said". You posted your thoughts and posted again saying that
Double post sarcasm>You
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Old 06-03-2012, 03:19 AM   #22
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Snap oversteer isn't a byproduct of camber. You will increase grip with camber and can subsequently change the oversteer/understeer behavior, but "snap" type of behavior is largely a byproduct of spring vs damping, more specifically sway bar spring effect during side to side motion which is something you can't really damp. A spring heavy car tends to rubberband a little bit. This is more significant when running cars with big sways but retaining mild spring and damper packages. You get a very high side to side spring effect that can be extremely sensitive to steering inputs. You have to be very smooth and deliberate with chassis inertia in order to drive the car well.

Tire wear won't be like what you think. Wear will come down to use. If you use the car hard, the tires will wear more even. If you're just cruising down the highway 99% of the time, the insides will wear more. If you run an auto-x once in a while AND actually push your car, you will find the high camber with the mixed sport and daily may be more even overall than you think. The amount of camber will depend on the use, and you can determine how you're doing by tracking tire use over time. For example, I have a Forester set at -2.5 front and -1.0 rear running a relatively stiff setup. I still over wear the outsides of the tires at this setting. From average use overall, I find that the car needs another -.5 to -1 more camber in order to produce even tire wear over the sum use of the tire for mixed daily and sport driving.

As for ABS, it's ok or quite good depending on what car you drive. Don't blame ABS for crappy tire traction. The ABS is a pretty functional system despite how much people want to blame it. There are certain forms of it that are crap, like the older cars with rear drum brakes. Beyond that though, it's mostly a tire issue more than anything else. Disabling ABS actually worsens braking distance without addressing brake bias balance. Stock, it's front biased to promote understeer. ABS under heavy braking actually redistributes braking force and evens out the bias, optimizing braking. ABS off, you're stopping about 15% farther out. Neutral out the bias and you're basically equal again. ABS does have certain weaknesses like bumps. It's not great about bumps. It's also not great with some loose surfaces as some surfaces will allow you to brake stronger by locking up the tires some. However, asphalt road in the rain is ALL the tire's issue.

Last edited by Back Road Runner; 06-03-2012 at 03:24 AM.
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