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Old 06-06-2012, 02:28 PM   #1
toneh
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Default Mapped and Unbelievable ?

Hi chaps I've nearly finished doing the first stage of mods on my 01 edm bug
Decat up pipe
3inch decat exhaust
Td05 16g
700cc injectors
255 pump
(intercooler yet to do )
Mapped by me and added tinywrex l/c patch
I put the pump and injectors in and obviously it ran awfull
So logged and mapped what seems like forever until all the bogging and flat spots were out (a little at a time)
Changed latency , scaled injectors , tip in
I was already running a modded effectively what you could call stage 1 map
So got to the stage were I thought it was smooth and pulling well but running slightly on the rich side , the thought being when I fit the exhaust and turbo it will even it up
Well I think it has , the car pulls fantastic no flats or dodgey running at all
It's got a very slight pop on overrun and slight black soot round the tailpipe (not a lot ) can't here any knock and logs not picking anything up that I'm worried about so I think it's still slightly on the rich side
The thing is I've not got wideband to double check Af
It's had a really good thrashing for the last 3 days and all is still good
So have I cracked it or could there still be trouble ahead ?
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Old 06-06-2012, 06:23 PM   #2
the suicidal eggroll
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You absolutely need to get a wideband...you shouldn't be doing any injector tuning without one.

Not seeing any knock is only one side of the coin, you could be running so rich that you're washing out the bore and damaging the cylinder walls. It's impossible to know without some measurements.
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Old 06-06-2012, 07:56 PM   #3
toneh
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Thumbs down

Mmm I see what you mean , I can check the Af on closed loop but I know open is a different kettle of fish , if it was running rich enough to create bore wash would it not show at least in closed , the base fuel map , latency , ect are pretty linear no big adjustments or jumps to correct any running issues I've made even and small adjustments across the board and I would expect a worrying level overfueling to manifest its self in other ways , ie , bogging , flat spots , smell , smoke. , I have nothing to go on that's giving me cause for concern ,other than its running better than I anticipated
If I didn't know I had mapped it and purchased it as it is now I'd be none the wiser and just think it was a nice modded car
The only reason I'm asking is I've heard so much about my cars doing this and my cars doing that after a tune or map it just seems a little to easy
Is there somthing I'm missing or somthing I Can check because I've got no issues , a tuner has even said a wideband on a dyno is of use but if I'm planning on using it on the road to log ect I would still not get a perfect reading because I can't get constant driving conditions ( but it would give me a good idea)
I come from I suppose what is classed as old school , tune by driving , general feel , performance and common sense , don't start winding everything up to the max ,
I don't know what to say , all I can think is if it's not right I'm sure it would show somewhere , I've never used wb on any car or motor ive built (turbo or n/a) and never had a problem , but there's always a first time for everything
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Old 06-06-2012, 08:42 PM   #4
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A $200 wideband will be WELL worth the money in terms of performance, reliability, and peace of mind. Compare with the price of a new shortblock + install

Can't go wrong with an Innovate MTX-L.
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Old 06-07-2012, 08:53 AM   #5
Paidfor
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Sooooo...........................why arent you using a AFR gauge again?
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Old 06-07-2012, 11:51 AM   #6
toneh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paidfor View Post
Sooooo...........................why arent you using a AFR gauge again?
Sorry dont understand what you mean ,
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:09 PM   #7
the suicidal eggroll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toneh View Post
I come from I suppose what is classed as old school , tune by driving , general feel , performance and common sense , don't start winding everything up to the max ,
I don't know what to say , all I can think is if it's not right I'm sure it would show somewhere , I've never used wb on any car or motor ive built (turbo or n/a) and never had a problem , but there's always a first time for everything
Even "old school" tuners still generally use an EGT to get an idea of the combustion temps. I've never heard of any tuner, old school or not, going by butt dyno and exhaust soot to judge how well it's running.

It may well be running perfectly fine, but I wouldn't risk it. Injectors are one thing and are relatively easy to scale, but as soon as you start swapping the MAF housing, etc., all bets are off if you don't have a wideband to check open loop.
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:33 PM   #8
toneh
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Maf Scaling prior to all mods was good on that front
And I've got no plans to change (I posted about that a while ago ), I
Am not saying there is no need for a wideband at all , I am just thinking seeing as all seems very good , is there a real need to invest in one , I am very reluctant to change anything in the map because I can't see how it could improve , as for soot I know , on evos what's coming out the exhaust is a very big indicator to running conditions
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Old 06-07-2012, 12:59 PM   #9
toneh
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Now I'm gonna put the cat among the pigeons
Subaru is one of the only makes (here in uk and USA)
We're when you mention modding a whole group of people pop up and say
Oh you must do this or it will blow up or don't do that it will break
I hate to say it but they are not super fine race engines , they are a 2.0 turbocharged flat 4 , nothing special at all
Now I've been messing with turbo cars since very early 90,s
Rs turbo, sierra cosworth , escort cosworth and in later years Mitsubishi evo
And never have I blown one ! And a couple of those were running 400hp
I think the trouble with imprezas is they are now cheap and some folks just chuck bits on wind up the boost and bang ,
Could someone explain what makes Subaru people hop and jump around and live in constant fear of a blow up
They are no different to the cars mentioned above only they have the benefit of a far superior ecu which makes life a hell of a lot safer and easier ?
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Old 06-09-2012, 10:31 PM   #10
Cr4ckfi3nd
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Dude either you are really dense or you just don't care. Y did you ask a question you didn't want the answer to. I know Eggroll personally and the man doesn't say stuff just to talk. I would listen to him. Not to mention if you ask any half decent tuner of any modern car they will tell you the same. Listen if you want or don't and risk blowing your engine, its your money so decide what's worth spending on and learn from it. I've blown my motor when I had a fueling issue but everything felt good. I blew doing 20 mph!

@ eggroll
Its Medrad_man (kurtis), how you doing Homie? hows that beast of yours
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:13 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by toneh View Post
Now I'm gonna put the cat among the pigeons
Subaru is one of the only makes (here in uk and USA)
We're when you mention modding a whole group of people pop up and say
Oh you must do this or it will blow up or don't do that it will break
I hate to say it but they are not super fine race engines , they are a 2.0 turbocharged flat 4 , nothing special at all
Now I've been messing with turbo cars since very early 90,s
Rs turbo, sierra cosworth , escort cosworth and in later years Mitsubishi evo
And never have I blown one ! And a couple of those were running 400hp
I think the trouble with imprezas is they are now cheap and some folks just chuck bits on wind up the boost and bang ,
Could someone explain what makes Subaru people hop and jump around and live in constant fear of a blow up
They are no different to the cars mentioned above only they have the benefit of a far superior ecu which makes life a hell of a lot safer and easier ?
Of course they aren't 'super fine race engines'. They're fragile, over-square, short rod motors, aka: even worse

I don't think people telling you to get a wideband to do a proper tune is exclusively a subaru thing, it's a not-doing-it-half-assed thing.

If you want to do it half assed, be my guest, but expect half assed performance and reliability/lifetime
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:37 AM   #12
toneh
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Lol , yeah I am a bit dense , and no I don't really care that much , ive said what the car is doing , I've logged what the car is doing and this week gave it a beating and still it's refusing to break (500miles of hammering so far )
I asked is there any ways obviously subaru specific ( not general ) to indicate a potential issue that may be the result of my modding
And seems other than a wb the answer is no
So that's all I needed to hear ,,,,,, now I might be dense but who are the fools spending more on mapping than the price I can buy a new motor for
I'm very happy with the result and gonna run with it (not running scared)
I've confidence in my own ability and stand by what I do
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Old 06-10-2012, 09:51 AM   #13
toneh
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Oh and I will be totally honest and the second it breaks or has a major problem I will post up on here and eat my own head (well maybe not the second one)
There's a short clip on you tube of when I mapped in the tinywrex LC patch (not great quality )
Subaru impreza bugeye launch control test

Sorry cant post a link I'm not home for a while
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Old 06-10-2012, 01:01 PM   #14
Cr4ckfi3nd
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If that's the answer you are looking for then yes, a WB/EGT gauge will show damaging trends that will shorten you motors life.

I do agree with you about dropping loads of cash on tuning minor parts to be a waste, but only if I can tune it properly myself.
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Old 07-13-2012, 01:36 PM   #15
toneh
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Hi folks bit of an update now remapped the wrx with the carberry speed density mafless rom and I must say its better than ever , now on 1500 miles , still going strong and still pulling well , which is now leading me to believe there's way to much bull**** talked on scooby forums both here and the uk
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Old 07-13-2012, 01:43 PM   #16
07VTRex
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i wouldnt say your cracked it, but i would say youve found a safe medium for the time being. you still have lots of room as far as WGDC and timing goes. not to mention an AFR is absolutely critical in this process. also, weather conditions may play a large factor. for example it may be fine in cool weather, but may start knocking when ambient temps rise. lots of compensation tables that i have a feeling you havent even touched....regardless glad to hear your trying on your own. i gave up long ago and let Phatron take over, so you made it further than i did

also, just want to say, just because you were able to tune it on your own (which is awesome, i am jealous!) doesnt mean its at its full capabilities or running as efficiently as possible. Experience is a very important variable that can not be appreciated by the first timer. you may have yours running fine, but whats not to say someone whos done this a thousand times can "safely" improve your entire powerband, just because they are familiar with these cars, their tendancies, tricks of the trade, etc...
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Old 07-13-2012, 02:25 PM   #17
toneh
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I agree on a rolling road with an experienced mapper you may well be able to tweak a little more ,but I really doubt there's much more to be had with my current set up , I'm well happy as it is , a member on a uk forum came over the other day to talk mapping and we had chance to drive my bug back to back with his prodrive blob and there are no two ways about it mine was the sharper quicker car ,From start to finish right through the range , by a long way , as for temps I'll just keep my eye on things , the uk at the moment is ridiculous it's up and down and come really cold in winter it's getting stripped to go forged and 18g so I'll cross that bridge at a later date , ive got my DIY det cans , no nasty noises to be heard
So what can I say , I'm not bragging or saying I'm a super mapper at all
All I'm saying is ignore the ooooh you can't do that brigade , do some research , take your time and you can get very satisfactory results
And btw nearly everyone that has seen my mods and car want to go the same way (even the prodrive guy)
So it can't be all bad can it
I'll post back at 2000
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Old 07-13-2012, 03:00 PM   #18
toneh
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Oh and I nearly forgot , how the hell do you know , what I've changed in my rom ,wgdc, timing , compensation , fueling , ect
This is what really gets me , the assumptions folk make , incredible lol
FYI
My map is now nothing like when it started , timing , fueling , wg, ect
I have tweaked it to my car ( as you should )
Come on guys credit people with some intelligence
How on earth are you gonna flash a standard (or someone else's rom) into your car and expect it to be right ( your not )

See ya at 2000
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Old 07-13-2012, 04:42 PM   #19
Cr4ckfi3nd
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The fact that you didn't mention any of the tables he was talking about shows that you didn't touch them. The ones he is talking about are tables such as MAF compensation, AVCS, Timing compensation for IAT, ECT, and MRP. leaving these tables stock wont hurt anything but they can make huge improvement on both power and regular driving if adjusted correctly.

Glad too hear the car is running great though.
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Old 07-13-2012, 06:05 PM   #20
toneh
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Ok smart ass can you explain how or why I should adjust maf when I'm running map ?
And why or how I adjust avcs when I don't have it
2001 edm bug
Like I was saying these forums are so full of bull****
As for iat that's fine , I'm gonna do another little tweak because I'm moving the sensor post intercooler
Not so clever now are we mr smart ass
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Old 07-13-2012, 06:29 PM   #21
Cr4ckfi3nd
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Sorry for not being more specific to the bugeye or SD tuning but the concept still applies. Its just another tool to further improve you car. If you don't care, then do what you want. Just sharing the info.
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Old 07-13-2012, 06:33 PM   #22
toneh
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Please tell me what info ?
You've just tried to disprove what I've done now please back up what you've said
I,e
I would like you to explain how I adjust tables for things I do not have ?
I don't expect you to back track and try and skirt round your comment
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Old 07-13-2012, 06:57 PM   #23
toneh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cr4ckfi3nd
Sorry for not being more specific to the bugeye or SD tuning but the concept still applies. Its just another tool to further improve you car. If you don't care, then do what you want. Just sharing the info.
Should read
Sorry forgot it was edm bugeye ( no avcs)
Sorry forgot you was running s/d

As for doing what I want , yeah your right I will
Otherwise if I listened to people like you I'd be trying to tweak maps for things that are not on my car
And I'm still waiting for you to share this great info
Have you found out how to tweak the flux capacitor map
Lmfao
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Old 07-13-2012, 07:50 PM   #24
izergfx
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Unsubscribed
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Old 07-13-2012, 09:02 PM   #25
toneh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izergfx
Unsubscribed
Why ?
Think how I feel
Guy maps car , people say your risking it , might go bang
Guy posts , it's all good , done 1500 miles , running well
People say well you've hit a compramise it's not as good as it could be
Guy says no it is , done some back to back with another decent spec car
People then move on telling guy , well you can't have mapped it properly because you didn't change x & y
Guy says I can't because I don't have x & y
Wtf do people want , what do they want me to say
My cars knocking , it's down on power , i ve got a rom out of a Lexus in it
I'm only reporting what I've done , no more no less
I'm sorry it's running well and I'm pleased with it
I'm sorry I can't find problems with it
I'm sorry I've spent days and days logging , tweaking , flashing revised roms into it ( was even gonna post my rom )
Now why the f***k are people intent on finding problems that don't exist or telling me what I've done or not done ( I should know I've done it )
I thought some people might read this and think hey this guys done his own without spending big amounts of cash and it sounds ok , I might look into it and have a go
IMHO I think it's pretty sad , most people need
encouragement not doubt cast in there mind , if life was like that no one would try anything through fear of failing
There's some amazing guys on here so I'll just be reading there advice from now on ,
It's just not worth the hassle posting Any successful ventures , far too many negative folks for my liking
Very very sad

All the best and to those that want to mod/map there own car , go for it !

Tony
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