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Old 06-18-2012, 07:14 PM   #1
C J
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Default JR Tuned **stock block** 2006 GT3582 E85 STi goes 10.83@126mph

**edit** 3/19/13




First of all I really hope this doesn't get deleted as it will soon have track results/dyno numbers in the thread at some point.

I want to post in this section b/c this is where all of the knowledge of Nasioc resides and all of those who I respect regularly post in here running/tuning big setups so I come for help/advice/etc.

Really hoping this turns into a long thread with quite a few replies and can document the progress my car makes, anyways let me get to the point...I am STRUGGLING with the car ever since going rotated. Some of you recall my stock turbo set up being pretty strong and I really never had any problems, well it has been the exact opposite experience with the new setup.

Currently running a treadstone engineering rotated kit that I picked up from a friend at a friend price. Paired it with a Garrett 3582, tial 44, tial q bov, etc. Standard stuff that everybody uses....as far as my fuel system I had a set of 1200cc side feed FiveO Motorsport injectors and still running my trusty walbro 255 in the tank. After the reassembly of the car it ran terribly and was constantly dying and would not idle, hardly wanted to cruise, etc. Nobody could figure it out, I assumed it was all tuning but had 1 then 2 then 3 different people look at it with no results. Finally got the car to idle ok and cruise ok but coming off of cruise it would not transition to idle and would either die or stumble violently until it either killed itself or I shut it down (AFRs pegging rich) on the wideband.

Had numerous people suggest it was the FiveO injectors which were never going to work since they were big sidefeeds. Was talked into going top feeds so I spared no expense on injectors and bought a new set of ID2000s. Got hooked up through a friend on a set of factory wrx rails and FPR and scored a set of TGV deletes from another friend. At this point I was excited and expected the problems to be solved...get it put together and NO CHANGE.

Next chapter, I boost leak tested the car for the 10th time and somehow I all of a sudden had quite a few leaks including the intake to tgv gaskets so I think maybe that is my problem. Tore it all back apart for the 2nd time in a couple days and get it back together and NO CHANGE.

Current chapter, I left the car with one of my EVO friends and he has been playing with it everyday for more hours than I care to know (awesome friend) him and his tuner have been playing around with the car and at this point I don't really care b/c I have the "try whatever, I am out of ideas" attitude. Well the car started to idle ok and cruise really well and it no longer was dying in between transition from cruise to idle but it is still rough to say the least and I will NEVER be happy with it in it's current state. Either way the car got to the point where they were doing some WOT pulls and have worked up to 22psi but when trying to bump it up to 24 psi they noticed it leaning out which indicated maybe a lack of fuel pressure. Sure enough put a fuel pressure gauge on it and it is dropping from about 62psi back to 55psi in the upper RPM range...so another problem...grrrreat.

At first we thought maybe the pump was running out of flow so he put in a Jays Racing 342lph pump he had laying around, no change. Ok so maybe the FPR is bad, changed it out and no change. Lastly maybe the fuel filter is plugged, removed the filter and no change. We are reading fuel pressure right off of the main supply coming into the engine bay near the drivers strut tower. So not sure what to check next...

Now if any of you made it through the novel (which has been 4 months of my life) Here are my questions:

1. What else can I try to solve the fuel pressure drop? I can't imagine we are maxing out the factory fuel lines since we are only at 22psi.

2. What can I do about the terrible driveability?


It is not enjoyable to drive at all, if I was assured I could drop it off at a shop and pick it up in perfect driving condition with only a tune I would trailer this thing anywhere in the country and leave it...but I don't want to fall into a situation where I end up with a $2000 tune due to a million hours on the dyno...any thoughts?


***EDIT***

Just wanted to update this first post with some results that can be found later on in the thread (Page 14)

Time slip:



Track Video:

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Last edited by C J; 03-19-2013 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 06-18-2012, 07:28 PM   #2
juanmedina
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The car shutting off when going from cruising to neutral happen because the MAF is scaled to low (loads < 3g/rev)

What CAI are you running? Blow through?

Your pump should be able to handle the fueling all they way to 500whp dynojet and there is not way you are maxing out the stock fuel lines.
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Old 06-18-2012, 07:33 PM   #3
C J
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
The car shutting off when going from cruising to neutral happen because the MAF is scaled to low (loads < 3g/rev)

What CAI are you running? Blow through?

Your pump should be able to handle the fueling all they way to 500whp dynojet and there is not way you are maxing out the stock fuel lines.
Is that a common problem with the MAF? I have searched and it doesn't seem anyone else has these problems.

The CAI is the one that came in the kit, it is not blow through.

Good to hear about the factory lines and I know I have enough fuel for what I am trying to do but still have the pressure drop problem...sucks.
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:23 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post

What CAI are you running? Blow through?
These were my first two questions. If it is not blow through, that is a bonus, but if the MAF is on a funky angle, or just coming off a corner, that will most certainly affect the way it is reading. Is the MAF dirty?

How are you tuned? Open source?

If you're tuned w/ a cobb, you should consider speed density to see if that is part of the problem. There is a setting on there where it blends the two so you dont have to retune right away, but it doesn't sounds like getting a modified tune is a problem for you.

Quote:
Sure enough put a fuel pressure gauge on it and it is dropping from about 62psi back to 55psi in the upper RPM range...so another problem...grrrreat.
No vacuum leak? What about bad MAP sensor? Not a common fail point but ... never know. Simple enough to check

Good luck!
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:43 PM   #5
C J
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MAF has been cleaned and swapped out with a few other's to eliminate that possibility. As far as placement it is not on an angle and I have tried changing the flow path from the MAF to the turbo to try and eliminate the possibility of turbulence created by the turbocharger itself.

Trying to tune through opensource.
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Old 06-18-2012, 08:58 PM   #6
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Check what the maf limit on the tune is set to. May need to raise it. Also what is the max maf voltage you are hitting
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:16 PM   #7
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Did you remove the stock fuel check valves when you did your fuel system? If so, that could be your problem. The check valves help keep fuel pressure from dropping off.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:21 PM   #8
C J
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Not that I know of, I did not remove anything that resembled a check valve.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:24 PM   #9
C J
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This is a picture before everything was assembled but you can see the intake and MAF placement, maybe someone can spot an obvious flaw in the design.

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Old 06-18-2012, 09:43 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
The car shutting off when going from cruising to neutral happen because the MAF is scaled to low (loads < 3g/rev)

What CAI are you running? Blow through?

Your pump should be able to handle the fueling all they way to 500whp dynojet and there is not way you are maxing out the stock fuel lines.
I have scaled and scaled the MAF to a point where I could not believe the trouble. This later led me to question a boost leak with the 40ft of piping newly assembled under the hood. I found quite a few boost leaks and tightened the T-bolt clamps until they no longer leak. One of them... I tightened enough to get the clamp to start pushing into the thing aluminum piping. Part of the easy leaking is due to the fact Treadstones hoses are just too large in diameter.

Still seeing issues, I tested again and found that a couple vacuum lines would leak and the recently installed Grimmspeed TGV-to-intake gaskets were leaking pretty bad. At that point, I had the car for about 2 weeks and threw in the towel after finding that I had put a dent in the piping (still feel horrible).


Quote:
Originally Posted by Layvon View Post
These were my first two questions. If it is not blow through, that is a bonus, but if the MAF is on a funky angle, or just coming off a corner, that will most certainly affect the way it is reading. Is the MAF dirty?

How are you tuned? Open source?

If you're tuned w/ a cobb, you should consider speed density to see if that is part of the problem. There is a setting on there where it blends the two so you dont have to retune right away, but it doesn't sounds like getting a modified tune is a problem for you.


No vacuum leak? What about bad MAP sensor? Not a common fail point but ... never know. Simple enough to check

Good luck!
With the ID2200's and the MAF disconnected, I got the injectors to idle extremely well with and without A/C. It was almost a seemless transition from A/C on and off. As soon as we plug in the MAF, it would idle like poo (later found the leak at the TGV's).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuke209 View Post
Check what the maf limit on the tune is set to. May need to raise it. Also what is the max maf voltage you are hitting
Without looking at a map, I think it was set to 500g/s.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eliezerrosario View Post
Did you remove the stock fuel check valves when you did your fuel system? If so, that could be your problem. The check valves help keep fuel pressure from dropping off.
Are you talking about the little drum looking things next to the strut tower? Those aren't check valves.


My thoughts on the fuel pressure dropping this point is a few theories:

1 - Walbro 255 drops flow drastically nearing 70 PSI
2 - Factory wiring cannot support the demand and such a high demand (and is a personal though as to why a bigger pump didn't show any improvement).
3 - The stock top feed rails that were sent to us were a little bent. Looks like someone bent them back to get them off easier. I had to bend them into position to get them remounted. The lines looked okay to me, but if they are limiting more flow, depending where and how the re-bends are reacting, maybe that could be causing the fluctuation/drop.

CJ, Have you tried a new sock on the pump. It's a far out guess, but it's just another thought.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:46 PM   #11
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^ Dude, my tuner will never work on that car with the MAF right there, he told me the turbulence of my 30r sucking air and from being to close to the turbo will be a major pita to tune. so i deleted the tgv motors and tuned the car using speed density, all good since.
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Old 06-18-2012, 09:50 PM   #12
C J
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snake32 View Post
^ Dude, my tuner will never work on that car with the MAF right there, he told me the turbulence of my 30r sucking air and from being to close to the turbo will be a major pita to tune. so i deleted the tgv motors and tuned the car using speed density, all good since.

I have tried relocating it by created more bends between the MAF and the turbo but didn't see much change.
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:20 PM   #13
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Like it was said before. The stock wiring harness won't support the larger fuel pump. Hard wire the pump with constant voltage from the battery using the recommend wire gauge. And the drum looking things are dampeners which, as far as i know, only cause rough idling and cruising. If you removed them put them back on.

My Bosch 044 was leaning out at 450whp because of a small gauge wire from the battery which ultimately caused me to have inconsistent fuel pressure and lean/rich issues. Also use an oem fuel sock because it sits lower in the tank just to reassure you're not getting fuel starvation.

Just food for thought. Hope this helped in any way.
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Old 06-18-2012, 11:57 PM   #14
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i have had all of these problems at one time or another.

-You need to buy the kstech super big maf housing that they make for the ultimate racing kits. that will fix idle issues and tuning stuff.

-ditch that pump, buy another pump like aero 340 or that new walbro and rewire it.

Your issues should be fixed then, but really no bs that maf placement sucks! way to close.
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Old 06-19-2012, 12:10 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by stretchedk7 View Post
i have had all of these problems at one time or another.

-You need to buy the kstech super big maf housing that they make for the ultimate racing kits. that will fix idle issues and tuning stuff.

-ditch that pump, buy another pump like aero 340 or that new walbro and rewire it.

Your issues should be fixed then, but really no bs that maf placement sucks! way to close.


Im running a hydra and my maf is just attached to the inner fender.

#1. Try to zip tie it and test that.. before you buy that Maf housing

#2 I agree with ditching the fuel pump and going with a drop in walbro 400 e85 pump or aero.. walbro is cheaper =)

I had a same issue on the dyno, I was losing pressure, so we ran an extra power wire with a relay on it to stabilize the pressure drop. then later on i bought a bigger pump. The wires going to the stock fuel pump are very small. Speaker wire would of been better from the factory!!
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Old 06-19-2012, 03:41 AM   #16
99STM
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i would keep that pump in your car and rewire it. see how it does. jay racing is quality stuff among DSM's, i have never seen anyone use their pumps in a subaru but i am curious as to how they work. if it doesn't work, i will take it back and sell it to some DSM kid on craigslist.

also, to add, we checked voltage at the fuel pump and it was about 12.2 at WOT and mid 13's at cruising. it is possible that it's losing voltage between the actual plug and the pump itself. never done a rewire kit, so i don't know.
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:08 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinK View Post
Like it was said before. The stock wiring harness won't support the larger fuel pump. Hard wire the pump with constant voltage from the battery using the recommend wire gauge. And the drum looking things are dampeners which, as far as i know, only cause rough idling and cruising. If you removed them put them back on.

My Bosch 044 was leaning out at 450whp because of a small gauge wire from the battery which ultimately caused me to have inconsistent fuel pressure and lean/rich issues. Also use an oem fuel sock because it sits lower in the tank just to reassure you're not getting fuel starvation.

Just food for thought. Hope this helped in any way.
I have a walbro 460lph and is not rewired. I have no issues at all..
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Old 06-19-2012, 07:51 AM   #18
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For the thing where it stalls while transitioning back to idle, try changing the 0.0 column in the upper left corner of the Target Throttle Plate Position DBW tables to keep the throttle plate open a little when you come off the gas.

Mine looks like:
800rpm 2.8
1200rpm 1.8
1600rpm 0.5
2000rpm+ 0.0

Also, once you hardwire the fuel pump you can get an adjustable FPR try decreasing the fuel pressure to get a little more flow out of the fuel pump. You should have plenty of IDC headroom with the ID2000's.
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Old 06-19-2012, 08:50 AM   #19
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yes plenty of head room.....and then some more head room!

and busted 6 spd club? what really!?
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Old 06-19-2012, 09:15 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina

I have a walbro 460lph and is not rewired. I have no issues at all..
I haven't seen anything on the 460 but the walbro 400 im using was designed to use the stock pump controller or hard wire. I already had my stuff torn apart for the Bosch so I hard wired my walbro with 10g. I will say the car idles and cruises drastically better now that i switched pumps and added a thicker gauge power wire. So i never got to test the larger walbro with stock harness.
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Old 06-19-2012, 09:53 AM   #21
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I have no real good input(other posters said good stuff), but I know that maf is getting huge vibrations from that inner fender well, at that spot. Also, post a pic of your spark plug tips.

It sounds kind of like a loose ground or an electrical issue.
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Old 06-19-2012, 09:57 AM   #22
KevinK
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If vibration on the intake might be helping the problem just wrap a coupler around the intake so it doesn't tap the fender.

And a bad ground makes sense....too much sense.
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Old 06-19-2012, 10:41 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stretchedk7 View Post
and busted 6 spd club? what really!?
Well the tailshaft of the trans in my car sounds like a box of rocks. I pulled the motor last night and will get the trans out sometime later in the week.
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Old 06-19-2012, 11:25 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
I have a walbro 460lph and is not rewired. I have no issues at all..
You probably never even maxxed out the 255 if you are still on factory wiring...

Sure, adding a 2x sized pump likely helped, but doesn't change that the factory wiring delivers reduced voltage than battery and is amperage limited.
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Old 06-19-2012, 12:00 PM   #25
GeneralTJI
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maf is definitely too close to the turbo... move it at least another foot from the compressor or change over to a blow-through setup which is superior overall anyway....
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