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Old 02-27-2012, 11:49 AM   #1
Fair!
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Default Vorshlag 2013 Subaru BRZ Limited - production car pics and impressions

Today Matt and I from Vorshlag and Brian from AST/Moton were able to preview a real live production 2013 Subaru BRZ Limited. This is the Subaru version of the joint Subaru/Toyota "FT86" chassis. I like Subaru a lot more than Scion, so that's what we wanted to see. The 40+ "pre-release pictures" that were taken by Vorshlag on Feb 25, 2012 start here. The BRZs go on sale in a week and should start arriving in early May.



The folks at Subaru of Plano only had the car for a day, and I had hoped to weigh this thing and get a "real number" on this car. Weight is key to everything for performance, to me. I've read these will be anything from 2600 to 2800 pounds. Big range there. We were also hoping to be able to pull off the front and rear wheels and measure strut and shock lengths as well as look at a few things like that up close. The guy in charge (some random car dealer there) said "no dice". We couldn't drive it, start it, move it, jack it up, but we could open the hood and trunk, and people were allowed to sit inside. Matt and I were the first ones at the dealership to see the car at 9 am today, and Brian Hanchey rolled up shortly after, followed by Sean Goodpasture and some other local folks that heard about this car being on display today.



We measured all sorts of things and Brian figured out what shocks and strut its going to take (a unique front strut, but not all THAT new), what camber plate it needs (Vorshlag already makes one that works perfectly - but it wasn't what I thought! I brought several we make and quickly figured out which Subaru chassis they stole the front suspension from), and verified some of the published numbers - like wheelbase (101"), total length (167"), etc. I also measured "outer track width" (from outer sidewall to sidewall, not center of tire) and it was over 68" wide, even with the skinny ass 215/45/17 tires! That's a good bit wider than an E36 BMW.



Take all of the "driving preview" impressions and throw them out the window, because they are meaningless - the factory tires coming on US models SUCK. These pathetic, skinny things are the same tires that come on a Toyota Prius... not kidding. As in "the opposite of performance tires". So it probably spins the rear tires easily and slides around like mad, but its likely making 0.7g lateral on these all weather, super-low-rolling-resistance microtires. Anyone that drives one of these on the factory rubber needs to know that it will make NO GRIP in bone stock form, but with a proper wheel and tire upgrade it should be considerably better. After crawling around and under it for 2 hours I know what its going to take to fit 17x9" wheels front and rear - it won't be super easy, but we'll make it happen, even if it means having a run of wheels custom made.



The car is begging for negative front camber, needs to be lowered at least 2", and is going to lose a considerable amount of weight with typical track/autocross prep. The rear muffler is a massive suitcase sized box, easily 50 pounds, and there's another resonator upstream (where a proper race muffler will easily fit). The exhaust routing is FUNKY - typical Subaru turbo car routing, with the driver's side manifold routed across the front of the motor (where a turbo would normally go) and into the passenger side, then routed back. Yuck! There will be a market for custom headers and full exhaust systems for NA cars, which should lose 60-80 pounds or more (in STX legal trim) in the exhaust alone.


Left: The BRZ engine is almost entirely behind front axle centerline. Right: AWD Impreza engine is almost entire in front of front axle centerline

...due to 10 image limit, see below...
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:49 AM   #2
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What else... oh, the motor placement really is pretty much perfect, and this chassis was NEVER meant to be an AWD car. Engine is supposed to be 9" further back than a typical AWD Subaru boxer 4, and it looks more like 2 feet further back. The front axle centerline is almost lined up with the front of the motor, unlike most Imprezas and the like (see comparison above).



The strut tower bracing is simple yet super effective, with stand-offs welded to the strut towers and rods going to the firewall (no wacky top-mounted intercooler in the way); it would be easy to make a 3-point brace using the stock bolt holes. Engine bay is plenty long and wide - you could put an LS1 under the hood if you wanted to, but the oil pan would need surgery and the front of the V8 engine would sit pretty far forward. The battery is huge and begging for a lightweight replacement (-20 pounds). There's tons of room for a FMIC when they make a turbo version (maybe in a year or so). Front end cosmetics are good and the lighting is well done.

Interior... wow, they really did this right. Best looking interior for a 25 grand car I've ever seen. The plastics have nice tactile feel (more rubber like than plastic), and the Alcantara/leather seats in this "Limited" model were very nice. Shifter is in the right spot, the steering wheel can adjust for tilt and telescope, plenty of head room, plenty of interior width (not knocking shoulders with your passenger, like in an NA/NB Miata or Elise), and the materials are great.



The stock seats are awesome, and almost as good as the ones in the EVO X MR. Like the EVO seats, they won't work at all for fat guys (hey, calling it like it is - sorry) but you won't be tempted to swap them out for race seats unless it becomes a full-on caged race car. The height adjustment of the all-manual (thank you!) seats has a large range, and both Matt (vertically challenged) and I could each fit in the car with a race helmet on. The center stack on this Limited model had automatic climate control, and if it works like on other Subarus (as in: not well), I'd skip the Limited package and get the "base" model for $2K or so less. The auto climate control, heated seats, rear wing, and leather inserts on the seat edges are all that goes into this pricier Limited model... I'd pass, but its not a big deal either way (supposedly only a 16 pound difference between the US packages).



The total height of the roof was super short (comes up to the bottom of my rib cage), and shorter than any Subaru I've ever seen by a foot or more. The rear wing from the Limited package does sort of make the rear lines look "right", so it might be worth the extra bucks of this Limited package just to get that. Or add your own later.



The rear seat is... very limited. Small children or child seats, maybe. With me sitting fairly upright in my normal driving position, at 6'3" tall, the front seat back was 2-3" from touching the rear seat bottom (almost zero rear seat leg room). The front seat could slide back that extra few inches, to where the seats touch (zero rear leg room), and I had to really reach for the controls... so I suspect up to a 6'7" driver would fit - there is a lot of head room. With a slimmer seat bottom (custom floor bracket) even these tall folks could race the car with a helmet on. Surprisingly roomy up front... but not so much in the back seat. The rear seats fold flat and you can fit a set of wheels and tires there, though.

...due to 10 image limit, please see below AGAIN...
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Old 02-27-2012, 11:50 AM   #3
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...and finally....



Not to mention, there's a full sized spare wheel and tire, and a scissor jack and tire iron back there. So figure on losing another 45 lbs when the "trunk junk" is removed. Whatever the actual weights end up being (if you take the middle of the range of weights I've seen published that might be ~2700 lbs?), figure you could take out another 100-175 pounds from exhaust, battery and trunk junk in STX autocross trim. And that's the only logical ST class it should go into - its close to the RX8's 2800 lb weight and 200 horsepower (and low torque), but has less tire room (245/40/17 should fit but 255/40/17 might be a tick too tall to clear up front and full lock).


This blue exterior color looked HAWT in the sunlight as it rolled in, super quietly

Should be fun tinkering with this thing, regardless. Matt has a deposit on one already, but not at Subaru of Plano - those jokers were taking $1000 non-nonrefundable deposits on a car they didn't know the prices of. And marking them up $900 over MSRP for "paint protection" dealer add-on crap, that you couldn't opt out of. Sleazeballs. "We're only getting 15 for the year!" I suspect the low production numbers predictions are total BS, but who knows. Its a $25K car - its not going to be super exclusive, you know? Once they start cranking these out, I think they will be made in "Miata like" numbers.

Again, all 40+ pictures I took are avilable here. I will post info and pics as soon as we get our hands on one - within the first hour of one arriving here at the Vorshlag shop it will be corner weighed, measured, disassembled, and the rest of the car will be dissected and weighed further. We have several new FT86 specific products in mind - some will be developed before it arrives, the rest soon after. I will share them during development, too.

Cheers,

Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports
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Old 02-27-2012, 12:50 PM   #4
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thanks for the hands on info. sneak in at night and weigh it!
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:09 PM   #5
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sick! great write up and pictures. I wonder why they gave it such crap tires stock? Do you know if there's a wheel/tire option?


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"avilable here."
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:33 PM   #6
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More info than I have read elsewhere. Can't wait to see what afternarket products come out.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:34 PM   #7
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Hey Terry, Keith Casey here.

Quote:
the factory tires coming on US models SUCK. These pathetic, skinny things are the same tires that come on a Toyota Prius... not kidding.
Did you get the actual model of these Michelins?

Could you just clarify that a bit? The pictures are just a tad small to tell. Sure, they could just be your base Primacys, but I don't beleive that to be the case if the grapevine is to be believed.

If I'm not mistaken, they are Michelin Primacy SUMMER GT tires. As in, they're not all-seasons. Question is if they're HP, HP ZP or HP ZP SR. (With the HP ZP SR some as optional performance on Audi A3, A4, A5 and A6s). If they're just HPs, but still just summer tires (i.e. not all-seasons), that's still saying something. Yes, you can get a Prius with just summer tires from the factory.

Granted, they may still suck compared to todays 140 treadwear tires, that goes without saying.

From Tire Rack on the Primacy HP:
Quote:
The Primacy HP is Michelin's Grand Touring Summer tire developed to provide longer tread life and lasting performance throughout the tire's life, as well as better braking, steering control and handling on wet roads. The Primacy HP meets Michelin's Green X standard* for low rolling resistance that confirms the tire's contribution to reducing vehicle fuel consumption and emissions of CO2 gases. While Primacy HP tires are designed to offer reliable traction in dry and wet conditions, they are not intended to be driven in near-freezing temperatures, through snow or on ice.

Primacy HP tires benefit from Michelin design innovations known as A.S.M. (Architecture, Sculpture and Materials) reflecting Michelin's ability to focus simultaneously on three fundamental factors that determine a tire's capabilities. Using their A.S.M. design method, Michelin can develop tires that combine an architecture that deforms more easily to optimize contact with the road, a tread design sculpture that remains rigid so more of the footprint contributes to performance, and unique tread compound materials precisely blended by Michelin's mixing technology.

Primacy HP tires use a new generation Michelin tread compound molded into an asymmetric tread design that features large, linked shoulder blocks, notched intermediate ribs and a solid center rib to combine responsive handling and high-speed stability with traction and even treadwear. The Primacy HP tire's structure includes twin steel belts reinforced by size-optimized BAZ Technology (spiral-wrapped Polyamide Banded At Zero degrees to tire rotation) to enhance ride quality while providing high-speed durability.
Not only that, the Primacy HPs are rated #1 in the category of Summer GT tires.

Give them a shot before dismissing them because of other cars that may have them on. It just may be that they're overkill for the Prius and not necessarily for the BRZ.

--kC

Last edited by KC; 02-27-2012 at 01:40 PM.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:42 PM   #8
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http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/261...re-tires-video

Sure running uber wide super sticky tires is fast. Watch the vid above.

I seem to remember someone at subaru saying that they didnt put super sticky tires on the car so you could actually have some fun sliding the BRZ around. I know i will.
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Old 02-27-2012, 01:52 PM   #9
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Yes!!^^^^
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:45 PM   #10
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You can just look at those tires and tell they aren't the normal Prius OEMs.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:51 PM   #11
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Thanks for posting this detailed write-up.

I do think you were a little harsh on the tires though... as long as steering feel/feedback is good, using a low rolling resistance, moderately sticky tire makes sense for OEM and for a daily driver. Many who are serious about competing get dedicated tires anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KC View Post
If I'm not mistaken, they are Michelin Primacy SUMMER GT tires. As in, they're not all-seasons. Question is if they're HP, HP ZP or HP ZP SR. (With the HP ZP SR some as optional performance on Audi A3, A4, A5 and A6s).
You can tell from http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Cars/Sub...qZksC&lb=1&s=O that it's the HP (regular).

For reference, here's what a ZP tire looks like: http://www.tirerack.com/tires/BigPic...wall=Blackwall

ZP = zero pressure (run flats), so they wouldn't make sense since there's a spare.
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Old 02-27-2012, 02:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmojoz View Post
You can just look at those tires and tell they aren't the normal Prius OEMs.
Brothers 12 Prius



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Old 02-27-2012, 03:02 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by tom@kartboy View Post
Brothers 12 Prius
Exactly.
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fair! View Post
With me sitting fairly upright in my normal driving position, at 6'3" tall, the front seat back was 2-3" from touching the rear seat bottom (almost zero rear seat leg room). The front seat could slide back that extra few inches, to where the seats touch (zero rear leg room), and I had to really reach for the controls... so I suspect up to a 6'7" driver would fit - there is a lot of head room. With a slimmer seat bottom (custom floor bracket) even these tall folks could race the car with a helmet on. Surprisingly roomy up front... but not so much in the back seat.
Nice!

<6'5"
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Old 02-27-2012, 04:34 PM   #15
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Those seats aren't anything like the Recaro's that come in the Evo X. I own one and have seen the other from 3ft away.

Those are comparable to an 04 WRX.


MvP
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Old 02-27-2012, 05:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sword_of_the_Spirit View Post
Those seats aren't anything like the Recaro's that come in the Evo X. I own one and have seen the other from 3ft away.

Those are comparable to an 04 WRX.


MvP
You're being too literal. He's talking about the width of the frame and the support.. not the size of the bolsters and the way they look.
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Old 02-27-2012, 08:34 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmojoz View Post
You can just look at those tires and tell they aren't the normal Prius OEMs.
Well, in some markets these ARE the same as the OEM Prius tires (JDM Prius). Its been noted in several magazine write-ups and on TOP GEAR UK. This was a BRZ Limited, too... so the "better" package? These tires will suck - but I say that about a lot of OEM tire offerings. I am an equal-opportunity tire basher.



They are a sad, skinny joke and so far from what I would consider a "performance tire model" that it might as well be lumped in with the all-season models. I street drive around on 140-180 treadwear tires on all of my cars - because you never know when a track day or autocross might pop up. This BRZ, honestly, should come with something a tick sportier in a 225 or 235mm size. This is a car that is freagin over 68" wide! 215mm tires are too small for a car this large. "Under Tired"

But its all good - most enthusiasts here will toss these wheels/tires into the back of their garage and replace them with some decent "extreme summer" or whatever you call it "good" street tires (140-180 treadwear), in a more rational size for this width/weight car.



There's lots of room for more tire/wheel in the rear (and more with a simple E-brake bracket mod - its in a weird location on the trailing arm), and there is "enough" room up front for at least another 1-1.5" of wheel width. I'm thinking a 17x8 in 245/40/17 will be popular with many - that should be pretty idiot-proof. If you use some extra negative camber up front a 9" should fit, so autocross/track guys will probably gravitate towards 17x9" wheels and 255/40/17 rubber. That's what we're going to try first. Might need a custom wheel offset in this 17x9" size and 5x100 bolt pattern, but we can do that easily enough. This will be measured for on Day 1 of ownership here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
You're being too literal. He's talking about the width of the frame and the support.. not the size of the bolsters and the way they look.

2008 EVO X MR on 18x10.5" wheels all around

Yes... they aren't the same seats used in an EVO X, but they are darn close in style/fit/size. I spent about a year in an EVO X MR when these first came out, so I understand the difference. The EVO X has pretty aggressive seats, but so narrow that it makes it hard to drive for "extra width" folks. I loved them but it could be limiting the sales of the cars to "average American buyers". Very nice seats in the BRZ given the price of this car ($25-27K?), I feel. I've driven many modern sports cars at twice this price with worse seats.


Love the BRZ, as it has a LOT of potential, cool RWD layout, should be "light enough" on curb weight, but it has a few flaws - all of it is easily fixed with some aftermarket parts.

We are on the list for a blue BRZ Limited... more soon.

Terry Fair @ Vorshlag Motorsports
(yes, I am a NASIOC supporting vendor... I just signed in with the wrong account when I first posted this - sorry Mods)
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Old 03-03-2012, 06:56 PM   #18
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so if the engine is lower and further back, does that mean brz is more pita to work on than sti?
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Old 03-05-2012, 06:57 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jkonquer View Post
so if the engine is lower and further back, does that mean brz is more pita to work on than sti?
Based on what I've seen - no. The BRZ actually has a lot of room in front of and behind the engine that's open space. And it doesn't have a turbo or intercooler piping in the way.
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Old 03-08-2012, 06:31 PM   #20
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I want to see some pictures of your car immediately.
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Old 03-11-2012, 10:13 PM   #21
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Very cool. Thanks for sharing. I signed up for dealer updates last week, and my local Suby dealer told me one of the "touring" BRZs was in the dealership the day before. Doh! Guess I will have to wait for the first pre-order to show up, now.
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:54 PM   #22
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Thanks for the write-up, I wish a dealer in the Chicagoland area had a Subaru or Scion on display to see before they go one sale. The vehicle really needs to be lowered at least 2 inches? Come on, seriously?
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Old 03-12-2012, 08:13 AM   #23
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This is my MCS on Vorshlags and ASTs:



That's probably 1/4" below the max spring perch height.


Yeah, they're probably serious.
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Old 07-10-2012, 10:43 AM   #24
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After waiting for months, Matt at Vorshlag has given up on his order of he BRZ he wanted from a local Dallas dealership. 5 months and they have "no idea" when or if his car will arrive. Now he is buying one from another state and soon we can finally get started on the other suspension development work we have in store for this chassis.
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Old 07-10-2012, 07:44 PM   #25
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That bad in Texas as well? I would have expected there to be cars available out that way...
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