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Old 07-15-2012, 02:59 PM   #1
djelly84
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Default The 2012 Anti-Lag thread

Talk about beating a dead horse right!!? Beating it back to life that is!

Yes, anti-lag, antilag, ALS, boom boom pop!, you know what I'm talking about. If by chance you don't really understand ALS, or if you are somehow convinced that anti-lag is the devil due to nasioc propaganda...check out this blog post !

Just want to start a fresh discussion about this topic and hear from those currently applying ALS. What Method? What have the results been? Pros? Cons?

This is being posted in EMS & Tuning forum, but I'm equally, if not more turned on by bypass valve methods of ALS.

I ran ALS through retarding ignition on my GDB for over two years through the Open Source tune done by Brewed Motorsports.

Now, under AEM, I plan to run more aggressive ALS through the EMS, but am also contemplating doing a Secondary Air System (simmilar to the JDM Mitsubishi Evo's) to provide antilag.

If you're looking for ways of applying anti-lag in your setup, check out this recent blog by Brewed.




EVO ALS Diagram


EVO ALS components


EVO WRC System


Subaru WRC System


Brewed S13 backfire...yeah besides all the off throttle advantages, u also can shoot flames.


...bangin on fools...
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Last edited by djelly84; 07-16-2012 at 04:15 AM.
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Old 07-16-2012, 02:09 AM   #2
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Thanks for sharing
Some sexy WRC engine bays: http://brewed-motorsports.blogspot.c...m-aka-als.html

And Eric Hsu shedding some light on the topic, (subaru system in the video working amazing to say the least)
http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_artic...ag-teaser.aspx

Last edited by tunermt; 07-16-2012 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:43 PM   #3
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I don't suppose anyone on here has any pictures of what the inside of the "rocket" (subi als) looks like on the inside do they? I assume it is simply an open chamber but assuming is no good
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Old 07-16-2012, 10:31 PM   #4
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Old 07-16-2012, 11:01 PM   #5
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I'm running ALS on my ViPEC v88 ECU in Group N mode - aka cracked throttle. It works REALLY well for cable-driven cars. Drive-ability is surprisingly good on transits.

I'm also selling a v44 (a solid system for any EJ205, non-avcs setup) - check the classifieds. That will also do ALS, launch control, and pretty much anything. The ViPEC is a proper motorsports ECU.

My current setup allows for about 12lbs of boost off throttle. Currently running 24psi on throttle.

There's also a decent discussion of ALS methods over on Dirty Impreza: http://www.dirtyimpreza.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=26205
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Old 07-17-2012, 06:32 AM   #6
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Very nice,ya the drive by wire set up makes anti lag easy with a proper ecu
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Old 07-19-2012, 02:18 AM   #7
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thanks geek guy for posting that thread to dirtyimpreza! There's definetly a big resurged interest in ALS right now! MotoIQ just put up that teaser of rocket zero lag

this thread was close to giving the answer...but the dude from Subaru WRC Spares couldn't figure out how to post pics lol!
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1650384

Quote:
Originally Posted by tunermt View Post
I don't suppose anyone on here has any pictures of what the inside of the "rocket" (subi als) looks like on the inside do they? I assume it is simply an open chamber but assuming is no good
Yeah we've gotta find that. And we're not going to find it. unless you want to pull a mission impossible at prodrive's headquarters. I don't think its simply an open chamber, if you watch the below video, it shows the engine tach and turbo tach, engine tach goes up to 5k, turbo spools, and then engine tach drops, and turbo tach doesnt, so something else is spooling the turbo...LIKE A CRAZY MINATURE JET ENGINE!!! its not bleeding off the charge canister, as it wouldn't be able to provide that much pressure to spool the turbo for that long and the charge cansister just stores surpluss pressure from the air diverted from hot side of the IC that would go to the rocket system and feeds that back into the engine when you get back on throttle...

I think this guy's guess on MotoIQ is the best i've heard:
"The combustor consists out of an inner tube (the flametube) with some organized holes around it's circumference and an outer tube. The air that is fed into the combustor gets divided into 2 air streams. One part is directed into the flametube, where it is mixed with fuel and ignited by a spark. The second air stream moves between the outer tube and the flametube and get's diluted via the holes into the flametube where the air/fuel mixture is constantly burning. At the same time the air that is not burned cools the combustor & flametube down. So you end up with an extremely oxygen rich exhaust gas and an EGT of around 600C celcius, which isn't even hot enough to kill a VTG turbo."



I hope that what all this is leading towards is more publicized info, and more widespread, privateer usage of advanced ALS in the next couple years! Twin-scroll is sooooo 2009...lets put jet engines in our headers!

And just to re-post some rad pictures Logic posted in that motoIQ thread:






Last edited by djelly84; 07-19-2012 at 02:59 AM.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:06 AM   #8
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Quote:
"The combustor consists out of an inner tube (the flametube) with some organized holes around it's circumference and an outer tube. The air that is fed into the combustor gets divided into 2 air streams. One part is directed into the flametube, where it is mixed with fuel and ignited by a spark. The second air stream moves between the outer tube and the flametube and get's diluted via the holes into the flametube where the air/fuel mixture is constantly burning. At the same time the air that is not burned cools the combustor & flametube down. So you end up with an extremely oxygen rich exhaust gas and an EGT of around 600C celcius, which isn't even hot enough to kill a VTG turbo."
Very interesting theory right there damn though that just makes me want to see the inside of the (rocket) combustion chamber even more haha.
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Old 07-20-2012, 06:38 AM   #9
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OP, how long during the two years did you run the timing based ALS?
Sports events, daily driver, what did you do?
Did anything burn out, your cathalityc converters or hearders? Which turbo, did it get shaft play?
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:07 AM   #10
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I have been running a drag style als for years (maybe gets used 10-20 a month for 2-3 sec each time)
I also ran a slight throttle kick and timing based ALS for a 2 open track/practice days on a tiny garrett t25 on a 2.4L engine, needless to say the set up really didn't need any AL. The engine did regain full boost instantly when coming back on the throttle. Only reason i stopped using it was the little t25 simply didn't need the AL as it already responded very well any time you were above 3k rpm.

Manifold and DP were custom built by Full Race (no cat) and showed no damage what so ever.
Turbo still has very little shaft play and there is no damage to the turbine wheel or housing. (inspected it all when i pulled it apart to test one of the EFR turbos)

Currently looking forward to a new secondary air injection set up on a 2.0l project over the next few months.
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Old 07-23-2012, 09:41 PM   #11
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We are running ALS only when we are running some drag and some track days(but on track days here in UK using ALS on track can result in black flag)
We are running Syvecs S6PnP ECU which can have 8 fuel/boost/ignition map plus with all important sensors(oil pressure,oil temp,EGT,ACT,wideband etc.),very helpfull if you are running different fuels,boost levels and ALS/LC settings

Our ALS is only would say mild,with proper ALS you will loose brake servo etc,not sure if I would use proper ALS on track or drag strip,currently we are running MDX321T(which is based on GT30 core) and spools well like with ALS or without the ALS

I would only recommend Syvecs ECU,with which you are never be limited in any aspect...


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Old 07-24-2012, 11:23 PM   #12
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sounds like an amazing ECU my friend. You mentioned your ALS is "mild" would you share some details about what your using/doing.

Thank for posting
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:10 AM   #13
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:25 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunermt View Post
sounds like an amazing ECU my friend. You mentioned your ALS is "mild" would you share some details about what your using/doing.

Thank for posting
Here is more infos about the Syvecs S6

http://www.syvecs.com/s6gp.php

Many people running some sort of the Vacuum pump for ALS,which can be used instead of manifold vacuum

http://www.simtekuk.co.uk/www.simtek....php?p=8&pno=0

Here is good demonstration of the ALS



I will post the videos of the our ALS when car will be home from our tuner.

We are running usually ALS on the track where is allowed,drag mainly or just for fun on the road

ALS we have assigned on the map number 3,6,7 with different levels and is done via switch(CAL rotary switch or Toucan like we are running ) or you can wire own switch for ALS/LC




Still lots of works needs to be done like Flat foot shifting,sensor needs to be wired to ECU and LC separate switch will be wired

Here how it looks and set in the Syvecs SW



Ignition retard setting Syvecs



Fuel cut setting Syvecs




And here is log from drag racing




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Old 07-25-2012, 10:46 PM   #15
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Does your ecu have an ignition cut option/table for the ALS by chance? (only having the option to retard the timing to fire when exhaust valves are open is not ideal in my opinion. I believe i figured out a good solution to this for my AEM set though.
Also is your engine drive by wire? I'm assuming you're running a throttle kick style als no secondary air entering the exhaust system pre turbo?

PS always love watching the little turbine engine builds, nice video
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Old 07-25-2012, 11:21 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tunermt View Post
Does your ecu have an ignition cut option/table for the ALS by chance? (only having the option to retard the timing to fire when exhaust valves are open is not ideal in my opinion. I believe i figured out a good solution to this for my AEM set though.
Also is your engine drive by wire? I'm assuming you're running a throttle kick style als no secondary air entering the exhaust system pre turbo?

PS always love watching the little turbine engine builds, nice video
Hi there

I'm not sure if Syvecs have Ignition cut option/table,Syvecs ALS strategy is different from other ECU

No our car is not DBW,still is older non DBW.

We are want run something similar via Vacuum pump or something like is Throttle jacker which is only operating when the ALS is active and will not have a jacked throttle when ALS is deactivated.This should work via PWM Bypass valve

Lots of option are out there what would like to have,but we have just two spare inputs and still I'm not sure if I would need this


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Old 07-26-2012, 04:02 AM   #17
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Ah running out of inputs damn that is not so easy to do.

I'm guessing you already know about this but there is a good Bosch PWM valve that reacts pretty damn fast and is a good size for the throttle kick ALS set up (flows plenty of air). I thought i had a bunch of info saved on this computer for this Bosch unit but i can't seem to find it my friend sorry.
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Old 07-26-2012, 12:48 PM   #18
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You know, looking at it and squinting a bit, it looks a bit like a Bosch 3-wire IACV, wonder if that would work. 0280 140 505 for a standard passenger car bit.
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:23 AM   #19
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Which piece are you referring to mekilljoydammit?

haha that was a fun user name to type out.
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Old 07-27-2012, 09:06 AM   #20
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Yeah, it's one of those things that I got to using once after getting frustrated trying to get my normal usernames working, and now I don't want to have to remember username *and* password for every forum and whatnot I'm on.

Anyway. You mentioned about a fast reacting Bosch PWM valve, and wondered if the Bosch valve is similar to what you were talking about. And I just sorta noticed it looks a little similar to the Subaru control valve prior to the rocket, and wondered if theirs is essentially something on the order of a custom built version. That part number I listed is one example of it; apparently the port size is something like 3/4" (19mm) so it should flow enough for some purposes.
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Old 07-28-2012, 12:31 AM   #21
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Yes that Bosch valve your referring to is great for "throttle kick" type ALS where you can still leave the throttle closed so the car can still idle normally when need be.

I am also very curiose if prodrive was using something similar. Using an electric and tuneable bpv for secondary air injection pre turbo would be quite amazing.
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Old 07-28-2012, 12:05 PM   #22
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How it seems to me is that there's a turbo speed sensor and a bit of computer code (probably within the main ECU) to control a valve to bypass air to the rocket, a combustor can. If the turbo speed drops, it's going to mean it's because the throttle's more closed, so it opens the bypass more and adds more fuel, probably via tweaking the engine injectors to make the engine run richer. Carbon monoxide autoignites at 1150ish degrees F, so pretty cold in terms of EGT. If turbo speed goes up too high, it closes the valve moreso and reduces the richness of the engine, eventually transitioning to being how turbos normally work.

At least that's my theory.
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Old 07-29-2012, 03:18 AM   #23
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I share your thoughts on this my friend and using the pulse width modulated BPV to control the air flow would be infinitely better than the mechanical vacuum activated BPV Mitsubishi used in the earlier EVO's.
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Old 07-29-2012, 10:48 AM   #24
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Exactly; I suspect one of the reasons they used to have a lot of turbos fail was due to overspeeding them, as without any way to accurately control things or feedback on speed it seems easy to do. I have a little experience making microcontrollers do things, so with some forms of ECU, it might not be impractical to have a black box telling it how rich to go and controlling the antilag specific parts.

I'm seriously thinking I need to get a testbed engine to experiment with. I mean, why risk destroying good parts first? I don't really have the funding this year though... something about getting married.
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Old 07-29-2012, 01:53 PM   #25
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To come back on the Syvecs topic of ALS.....

As Jura mentioned running proper ALS loses the Servo completely.....
I have been running proper ALS for larfs on my DBW car but when you lift off the turbo is still whilstling like it is when spooling No brakes so electric pump or very proper brakes are a must.

Needless to say EGTs go to 1000*C VERY quickly. When you don't spend too much time off the throttle it is OK but not long term.

TBH. ALS is merely a way to keep up EGTs mainly and keep turbo shaft speed up.
When you want to do a proper ALS setup you should have a turbo shaft speed sensor for the simple reason that it can give a good indication whether you are heading in the right direction with ignition retard and fueling or not. More Pops and Bangs doesn't mean anything!

People saying they want ignition cut don't want their engine to last very long I reckon. Ignition CUT causes fuel residue to explode in the headers causing uncontrollable boost rise and damage to the turbines and ex. valves which could be pressed back off the seat and into the piston.

The loud banging and popping is a waste of time. Whilst it may sound cool it is just a waste of energy. The loud banging and popping indicating the mixture is ignited PAST the turbine wheel. For proper ALS drive you need to think of a smooth and continuous pressurization of the turbine which can be done with some ignition retard to have most of the exhaust energy going to the turbine.

Even with a Jacked open throttle you can idle the car normally since you can set a certain fuel cut, etc. for when the ALS is not activated yet throttle is still jacked. Usually high percentage of Fuel cut should be used here with not too much retard to keep heat out of the system.

Jura: Looking at your boost recovery on your LOGs you might want to start using FFS first to prevent those dips almost back to zero. You can keep boost almost at a straight line when shifting. Much more worthwhile for dragracing.


My 2 cents,

Jasper Kopinga
CS Racing
Taiwan.
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