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Old 04-30-2012, 12:48 PM   #1
WhiteBgeye02
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Default AVCS in CL? Optimal for mpg's or performance?

Okay so after swapping my ej207 into my wrx with running avcs I have had a hell of a time trying to get some decent mpg's out of it straight highway driving. Right now I am seeing 22 mpg's on the highway and about 20 in the city just driving.
So my question is the 40* adv that the ej207 see's in Closed loop
ie under 1 g/rev and under 3k rpms does that help increase mpg's or just increase the performance you will see off cruising throttle?

it would seem that since the intake cam is openning while the piston is still going up some pushing the gases out that it might be counter intuitive for getting good mpg's.

any insight on this? I have seen maps from romraider which guys have taken all avcs out below 1 g/rev and the entire rpm column below it so zero adv.
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Old 04-30-2012, 06:42 PM   #2
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i run high AVCS (40*) and high timing (52*) at low load on my 06 STi and i can get 375-400 miles to a tank
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:16 PM   #3
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without a dyno there isnt a way to find optimal power at those loads obv though i would assume? what afr's are you targeting then in that zone? i dont have any know now. its running the s203 avcs map which is 45* advance. Timing is right around 44-46* adv in low load 55-70mph crusing. never go over 2850 rpms on the highway.

part of me is thinking the injector spray pattern on my set isnt the greatest causing a bad atomization of fuel and its not all getting burnt properly to make power to keep the car cruising. that or i need to downsize injectors so i am around 80-90% usage at wot.

do 06 sti's have the same size fuel tank?
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Old 04-30-2012, 10:40 PM   #4
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i target 14.7 out to almost 1 load.

I usually fill up 14-14.5 gallons....ive coasted into the gas station having the car shutoff and gotten 15 into the tank. i believe its a 15.5-16 gallon tank.

those high mileage runs are rare though. lots of downhill and late at night where i just have the cruise set and absolutely no throttle depressions....basically the whole tank cruising at 14.7
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:27 PM   #5
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okay. and i lied before the s203 map uses 40* avcs adv. I am guessing the ej257 has a bit more low end torque to help it cruise at a lesser throttle opening angle.

from what you have seen keeping the afrs at 14.7 and then adv the timing helps prevent knock rather than taking fuel away and fixing the timing to get better mpg's?

as far as load cells my transition load cells are .88 is 14.7 and 1.10 load is 14.45. if my car is at .89 load which cell does it refer to?

I am going to try and log some crusing tomorrow and maybe post it up.
from what i have seen the ej207 loves timing thus far. alot more than the ej205 did to say the least. never tuned a ej257 before so i wouldnt have any incite on your car to compare.
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Old 04-30-2012, 11:37 PM   #6
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yes 207s love timing. theres more timing in a 207 advance map than there is total timing in a 205.

the ecu uses 4 cells at all times to interpolate the value. if you're at 1.0 load is using the adjacent cells to calculate a final value.

I have an egt gauge. I based my timing on the egts. its pretty much the only way to tune the low load cells. theres a sweet spot in there where increasing the timing no longer decreases egts and reducing the timing too much can raise egts and make the car more knock prone.
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Old 05-04-2012, 10:15 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron
i run high AVCS (40*) and high timing (52*) at low load on my 06 STi and i can get 375-400 miles to a tank
What is max avcs angle for single avcs 257 motors?
I thought it was 30
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:53 PM   #8
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i have the ability to run atleast 45 on my single avcs cam ej207. would expect yours to be the same.
i dialed my afr's into 14.9 on the lc-1 and 14.7 on the stock sensor. put timing around 46 degree's cruising and had zero knock over 4 hours of hilly driving. timing drops a bit for larger hills but no problem cruising in 5th at 2500 rpms all day. we will see how it lasts. need a egt before i go any more.
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Old 05-11-2012, 04:05 PM   #9
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207 base maps run lots of advance down low to aid turbo spool. Particularly V8 and later twin scroll maps. If you wanted to tune it out for better highway milage use a VE calculator to find the VE at your standard highway load and use that for your CL map with less AVCS angle. Then set the cells 2 rows up for the advanced angle. Should be decent compromise between fuel economy and performance.
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Old 05-12-2012, 05:57 PM   #10
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?? set the cells two row up? sorry what do you mean by this?
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:06 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
without a dyno there isnt a way to find optimal power at those loads obv though i would assume?
FYI, I've done road tuning of cruise conditions. If you can create a consistent condition (same road and cruise control to the same engine speed) then Injector Duty cycle directly translates to MPG. I can usually get my average RPM to land within +/- 0.3% of my target RPM, so you end up with a pretty reasonable margin of error (around 0.1 MPG).

I log a section of my commute to do this. I do not have AVCS (yet) and am planning on an EJ207, so researching brought me across this thread.

I tuned an Evo 9 a few weeks ago (intake MIVEC only), and they can get valve overlap / EGR from their cam tuning. Things get really funky with fueling when that happens. It wasn't my car and the guy didn't care so much about MPG as autocross, so I just tuned the cam for high advance at the entire low end,as that gave the best response, and he loved it. He hasn't said anything about MPGs yet.

I haven't tuned AVCS, and don't know if there's any overlap possible. I assume there's quite a bit possible with dual AVCS, dunno about intake only, but it seems like EJ207s with 45 degrees advance should be able to get significant overlap.

Last edited by Concillian; 06-30-2012 at 09:13 PM.
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Old 06-30-2012, 09:11 PM   #12
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?? set the cells two row up? sorry what do you mean by this?
Here's my interpretation of what he said:

- check your cruising loads
- set AVCS advance lower at these loads
- increase AVCS angle back to the high advance 2 load cells higher so you get the additional torque when you step on the gas.

In the maps I'm used to, this would actually be "2 columns right" rather than "2 rows up"
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Old 07-08-2012, 03:08 PM   #13
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well i should try that to see how mpg's will go up or down but I am going Speed Density now so will have to mess with that for now. i am getting 26.5 mpg's average city/highway right now so i am happy with it. and i still get on the gas in the corners and on ramps. i bet i could get 27.5 all highway cruising. "40* avcs" and 43* at 2200rpm to 48* timing adv at 2800rpm. works great for me so i will stick with it for now.
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Old 07-11-2012, 02:05 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
"40* avcs" and 43* at 2200rpm to 48* timing adv at 2800rpm. works great for me so i will stick with it for now.
These are at all low loads? like everything under 0.85 g/sec?

Cruising puts me between about 0.35 and 1.25 (uphill) loads. I've tuned the uphill part within ~4 degrees of optimal, but not much below that, seems like you got a good bump from more timing down there, just keeping the AVCS at 40*.
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Old 07-12-2012, 03:15 PM   #15
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yes. i have loads set at .85 at 14.7 then drops to 14.3 afr at 1.1. all goes from 0-2900rpms. above 2900 it goes to 14.5 target afr, my timing is a small section like mentioned from 2200-3000 rpms between .35ish to 1.1ish then drops off to mid thirties right of that square on the graph. what is optimal that you are speaking of. yeah the increase in mpg's is great. my last tank i hit 26.6. 100 miles were pulling a trailer loaded to about 700 lbs. plus passenger and cooler/cloths/stuff.plus i was on and off the thorttle more in those miles for passing ppl at wot and just behind slow ppl in general.

logged and only time i get slight .35* knock is when it goes over a hill and gets off the throttle quickly because of cruise control. it dips down to 16.0ish when it lets off and that little knock even occurs every time. i took 1* out at the very low load cells approx 2650 rpms but it still did it. prob goes lean as it goes off throttle whihle still applying the 47* timing adv and knocks. oh well. the ej207 will handle that no problem. esp since there are few hills in my daily commutes and such.

having the extra load made it so my car hit higher load cells at wot 3rd gear pulls. no knock so i know it should be good if it ever overboosts and hits higher than normal peak load cells.
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Old 07-14-2012, 08:59 PM   #16
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I'm not on an EJ207, I'm talking EJ205. I'm also running E85.
At 1.25 g/sec I'm running 28-31 from 2400-4000 RPM. This is from logging timing in 4 degree increments on an uphill section of my commute that gives right around 1.25 g/sec. In 5th, the turbo is around 5 psi going up this hill. Comparing IDCs at different timing amounts leads to the optimal timing.

You have to be very consistent when doing this. I use cruise control and averaging multiple days of logging. I'm also an engineer who works with statistical analysis daily, so I know my margins of error, what's a signficant different and what isn't. In this case plus / minus 4 degrees was not a statistically significant difference, but 8 degrees either way was statistically significant (worse).

This kind of thing takes a couple weeks of logging (and hoping traffic allows me to keep the cruise control at 67 up that hill... where lots of people forget to press the right pedal going uphill and end up drivivng 50-55.) So it works, but it's not the kind of thing you want to do for every load cell, as it takes forever.
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Old 07-17-2012, 02:51 PM   #17
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degree's talking as in tempurature outside or timing table? sorry i can see it going both ways with what your explaining. i should prob log idc and see what happens. your e85 helps you put alot of timing into the engine which was something i never messed w/ on e85 and my td04 setup. wish i would have.

so basically if you get to a point with given A idc and you add timing and idc goes up at the same rpm its less efficient. just as if you take timing out and it takes more throttle to get same power to go up same hill. its again less efficient.

I am a senior right now hopefully complete my mechanical engineering degree in three more semesters. i really like that there are some really intellegent people on the forums such as yourself that can make a good write up and not just throw a sentence out.

two posts above i said my after drops to 24.5 above 2900 rpms. that was a lie. its 3500 rpms. the timing stays the same above 2900 rpm and less than 1.1 load. i am moving to speed density so for now my timing graph is going to stay as it is until i get my afr's dialed it on Carberry rom. need some more aggressive launch control to get my slicks going. no life to shift will be nice too!
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Old 07-17-2012, 03:50 PM   #18
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I'm talking timing degrees, not temperature.

IDC translates directly to fuel consumption. manifold air pressure is inversely proportional to fuel consumption.

You can see this post on 4th vs. 5th gear (5spd) on my commute where I explain some of my methodology:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2000614

That post is about comparing gearing, but the same methodology is used when I compare timing changes in cruising load cells.
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Old 07-17-2012, 08:34 PM   #19
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good writeup. its clear that if the timing between the two runs was very close the data should be nearly spot on. only thing that could have cause the OL to occur is if your cruise control lagged behind and then had to hit harder to keep up the speed it could have jumped in load. thus you saw the 8psi which should have brought you to like 13.0 afr. either way its a nice way to compare even with the flat land driving lower gears WILL burn more gas.

a while back a tuner on here told me he consistently was seeing guys with 5mt and ej207's getting 28/29 mpg but put the jdm 6mt on and couldnt see over 23/24 mpg. its just word of mouth but something that backs up your conclusion.
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Old 07-24-2012, 01:20 PM   #20
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bringing this back up what have you guys noticed if you run zero adv on the avcs in cruising but then ramp it up for the spool up and then obv taper off up to a given rpm.
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:02 PM   #21
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^ ive gotten worse mpg on my 06 STi with less avcs....on my car more avcs = more mpg.

IMO if you want to reduce the fuel being used...then wouldnt it be best to look at the fueling? Start playing with the CL Fueling Target Compensation (Load). And start leaning out the AFR.

I had my avcs mapping setup almost exactly like this version9 mapping

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Old 07-25-2012, 01:30 PM   #22
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i need to find those roms again. my avcs is setup like a s203/4 right now. one week of school left then i can put some gas in the tank. charge the lap top and go disappear for a few hours. i noticed a few mpg increase with the adv in avcs paired with timing so i am sure it helped.

looks like someone is into MMA fighting^^

that load comp table says its an additive at the top of the box so any positive values i put in there will make it richer correct? i used to run it with like +0.200 in the whole table but it didnt seem to help at all. never tried to see if they went negative which would be leaner if i am interpreting the table correctly.
edit:
i may be off on a limb but if i know my IDC approx to within 2% either way. i travel at that for a hour. taking my 850cc/min injectors i take the 850*(idc%) to get me cc's used per minute. multiply by 60 min/hr gets cc's used in the hour travel. take the distance i travel say 60 miles in the one hour. if i used a given 10% idc i would get 85*60=5100cc's of fuel used. converted to gallons which is 1.34 gallons. divide 60 by 1.34 you get 44mpg. def not what i am getting! pretty sure i dont go over 12% ever during cruising. even at that i would get 37mpg.
i think maybe my injector spray pattern is either **** or not spraying efficiently to all be burned correctly.
i guess this just turned into an injector/mpg question.

Last edited by WhiteBgeye02; 07-25-2012 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 07-25-2012, 02:17 PM   #23
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You'll have to figure the closed loop fueling comp out by logging final fueling base or final AFR target.....its different on most roms. some have + values, some have negative.

and yeah mma is the only sport i watch.
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Old 07-25-2012, 03:04 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteBgeye02 View Post
edit:
i may be off on a limb but if i know my IDC approx to within 2% either way. i travel at that for a hour. taking my 850cc/min injectors i take the 850*(idc%) to get me cc's used per minute. multiply by 60 min/hr gets cc's used in the hour travel. take the distance i travel say 60 miles in the one hour. if i used a given 10% idc i would get 85*60=5100cc's of fuel used. converted to gallons which is 1.34 gallons. divide 60 by 1.34 you get 44mpg. def not what i am getting! pretty sure i dont go over 12% ever during cruising. even at that i would get 37mpg.
i think maybe my injector spray pattern is either **** or not spraying efficiently to all be burned correctly.
i guess this just turned into an injector/mpg question.
you have four injectors
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Old 07-26-2012, 10:17 AM   #25
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wow. thanks Airboy! blew right over my head.
well that 5% brings it down to 22.3 mpg. i know for a fact i am getting better than that. i guess time to experiment!
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