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Old 07-27-2012, 03:36 PM   #1
Pandasaurus_rex
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Default Trouble Scaling Injectors in Romraider

Okay so here's the short and sweet:
I just installed DW850 injectors on my 02 USDM bugeye to prepare for a turbo replacement/upgrade in the very near future. I bought the injectors from a user on NASIOC and he claimed they were 850cc. Asked for the paperwork and he affirmed it was to be shipped. Once I received the injectors, there was in fact NO paperwork included I hounded him about it and he pretty much dropped off all communication.

So I installed them anyways, and gave closed loop scaling a try with the RR injector tab. At first, I entered 850 in the scalar and got the latencies off another image that was running DW850s. Latencies were 6.5v-2.78, 9v-1.81, 11.5v-1.42, 14v-1.2, 16.5v-0.98. These values were alot higher than my stock ones and holy ****, did the car run rich!! Then popping from the runoff sounded like gunshots I ran the injector tab and drove around for about 30 mins mostly in closed loop. RR suggested the scalar be set to 840cc and to knock off 0.24 from my latency. It was running a bit better, but the learned and corrections were still pulling quite a bit of fuel. I was getting alot of stumble pulling from a stop. So I went out and ran the injector tab again, this driving around for about an hour. It then told me to drop my scalar to 785cc and increase my latency by .02ms. So I entered 800 because thart seemed like a huge drop. NOW, I'm near perfect at idle (~2% corrections+learned) but I ran my MAF tab and drove around again, and I'm ADDING fuel to 80% of CL MAFv. I interpolated a drive where I stayed roughly in the 10-60 g/s range and there's a huge swell between the 1.5-2.5 MAFv area average of about 15-20% correction. I should note that I am running a stock airbox and have recently cleaned my MAF sensor and did a leak test. Intake system is tight as a bull's ass. But every time I run my injector tool, it tells me decrease latency and scalar by a few points. Won't that make the ECU add even more fuel?? I'm so confused I'm really new to Open Source Tuning. Also, I scaled my tip-in enrichment simply my the old flow/new flow=multiplier technique.
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Old 07-27-2012, 04:16 PM   #2
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The injector tab doesn't really work all that well in my experience.

If you know the MAF was on from the previous tune, you shouldn't have to mess with it much if at all.

Set the scalar so that the high load CL correction is low, and OL final fuel base vs wideband error is low. Then tune in the latency for the low end.

You may have to readjust the scalar as you tune in the latency if it was way off.
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Old 07-27-2012, 05:41 PM   #3
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So slowly raise my scalar and run trial and error? I don't have my wideband o2 installed yet since I'm still running my stock dp and don't plan on installing my bunged catless dp until I swap the turbo. Which is why I'm tring to get by scaling everything in CL. Am I just going to have to live with a certain amount on correction in my upper MAF until I install the wbo2?
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Old 07-27-2012, 05:55 PM   #4
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You'll want to start by lowering the scalar. Positive correction means that the ecu has to add fuel to get to stoich.

It'll be harder to get right without the wideband, but you should be able to get it right based on the higher learning ranges.
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Old 07-27-2012, 06:51 PM   #5
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Okay. That makes sense. I thought it was the other way around. I thought I had to add extra capacity so the ECU won't try to add extra fuel to correct. Goes to show you how much I need to learn.
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Old 07-28-2012, 10:12 AM   #6
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Update:
So this morning, I dropped my scalar down to 780cc and took the car for a 30 minute drive recording data in the maf tab. It seems the middle trims dropped significantly closer to 0 corrections. I had it draw an interpolation line and it had the same trends but was much flatter. The line starts out exactly at +5, drops quickly to 0 early on (there seems to be a void in plots right above idle) and for B and C trims, it swells and rides the line at +5, then drops sharply to -5 near D trim. According to learning view, D trim has the most learned correction. Is this something that will straighten out over ltft?
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Old 07-29-2012, 05:48 PM   #7
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780 seems pretty far off for 850's. Also, you need a wideband once you swap injectors. I would not trust only the closed loop for scaling. The romraider injector tab isn't very accurate at all either. Are you planning on tuning it yourself 100%?
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Old 07-29-2012, 07:46 PM   #8
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I've been monitoring my car like crazy since I did the install. Knocking seems non-existent across all loads and rpms. I've checked the status on learning view a few times and IAM is either 15 or 16 with half degree flkc in only a couple isolated cells. I do in fact plan to tune 100% but I also plan on consulting my tuner if I run into trouble. As Bad Noodle stated in his instructions, start with very safe conditions then proceed to find the limits, then back off to preserve the engine. I'm very confident that I can achieve my goal of tuning my own car.
Getting back to my injectors, it is very possible that they just don't flow as well a they did when they were last tested by DW. I did buy them used, but only with a claimed 5k miles. I'm okay with going that low with flow rating since I only plan on running an evo3 16g with a conservative tune (~18 psi). Right now, I'm just trying to make them work with as little corrections as possible in CL where I spend 95% of my driving.
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Old 08-01-2012, 08:54 AM   #9
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Okay, I've made a few more little tweaks. I raised my scalar up a little to 785 and set my latency to .87ms @14v. This seems to yield the best balance of positive corrections in lower trims and negative corrections in upper trims. My main goal was to keep both close to +/- 5%. I'll continue to keep an eye on my learning view. Only knocking issue I have is a tiny amount in the ranges of 1800-2600 rpms and 0.7-1.1 g/rev. Although I have positive corrections in that area, I think it might be more attributed to the stock base timing map. I cross referenced it and there is a huge jump in timing in those cells. I smooth the transitions out or just wait till I install my LC-1 before I dive too deep into that kind of tuning. I'm trying my best to figure this out, as it's my first time diving into the ECU of my car. Any feedfack would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:43 AM   #10
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It doesnt look too bad. I assume from that MAF graph you still have full delays in. The upper register usually falls down like that with full delays.

Also, do yourself a favor and get an AEM over a LC-1. Much easier to deal with.
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:02 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlazeRex View Post
It doesnt look too bad. I assume from that MAF graph you still have full delays in. The upper register usually falls down like that with full delays.

Also, do yourself a favor and get an AEM over a LC-1. Much easier to deal with.
It is a personal choice but I found the AEM drifts really bad as the weather and seasons change, I like being able to calibrate my LC-1 right when I start tuning fueling so I know its spot on.
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Old 08-02-2012, 02:27 PM   #12
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Unless you have an older LC-1 with calibration issues, or someone releases a wideband that uses the Bosch LSU4.9 sensor, you have no reason to upgrade
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Old 08-03-2012, 07:38 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlazeRex View Post
It doesnt look too bad. I assume from that MAF graph you still have full delays in. The upper register usually falls down like that with full delays.
I'm unsure what you mean by delays. I assume you mean CL/OL transition? I thought that the 02-03 years didn't feature that because it was not required until the 2004 model year. Please elaborate on this, as I'd like to smooth that end of my trims out.

Another issue just popped up yesterday. While I was pulling out onto a roadway, I gently accellerated (45% throttle max) and as I climbed through ~2600 RPM in 2nd gear, my car threw a CEL. I parked my car in my driveway a couple miles down the road and immediately pulled up learning view and lo-and-behold, I have a misfire in cylinder #1 . Now, I don't understand this, because for the most part, my car was running really well. Under pretty much all driving conditions, the engine feels fine. No apparent skips of any kind. The only issue I'm having is warm startup is a little rough during cranking (need to adjust my 12v latency value??). Cold startup is flawless, but I know the cranking enrichment is set higher at ambient temps. But a misfire?? WTF?! I'll be contacting my tuner and asking which direction I should go next. I'm hoping nothing's wrong with the injectors. But I'll be uber pissed if they end up being bad. I know DWs tend to be a bit more reliable, but I also have to consider the fact that I have no idea the true shape they were in when I bought them, only what the seller claimed.
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Old 08-03-2012, 09:44 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Pandasaurus_rex View Post
I'm unsure what you mean by delays. I assume you mean CL/OL transition? I thought that the 02-03 years didn't feature that because it was not required until the 2004 model year. Please elaborate on this, as I'd like to smooth that end of my trims out.

Another issue just popped up yesterday. While I was pulling out onto a roadway, I gently accellerated (45% throttle max) and as I climbed through ~2600 RPM in 2nd gear, my car threw a CEL. I parked my car in my driveway a couple miles down the road and immediately pulled up learning view and lo-and-behold, I have a misfire in cylinder #1 . Now, I don't understand this, because for the most part, my car was running really well. Under pretty much all driving conditions, the engine feels fine. No apparent skips of any kind. The only issue I'm having is warm startup is a little rough during cranking (need to adjust my 12v latency value??). Cold startup is flawless, but I know the cranking enrichment is set higher at ambient temps. But a misfire?? WTF?! I'll be contacting my tuner and asking which direction I should go next. I'm hoping nothing's wrong with the injectors. But I'll be uber pissed if they end up being bad. I know DWs tend to be a bit more reliable, but I also have to consider the fact that I have no idea the true shape they were in when I bought them, only what the seller claimed.
When I got MAF and injector scaling spot on I found the car started easier.

Also, yes, the 02/03 has CL/OL delays from the factory.
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Old 08-03-2012, 05:46 PM   #15
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Just talked to my tuner today. He was super helpful. He basically supplied me with his settings for DW850s. He gave me troubleshooting instructions as follows: If the engine runs like crap, then swap back the stock injectors. If it runs fine, then send the DWs out to get tested. If I still have problems, then I have a mechanical issue. Sounds pretty simple. I'm looking forward to see how this works.
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Old 08-05-2012, 12:26 PM   #16
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I tried my tuner's settings (828cc scale & stock latencies + 10%) and my car ran like junk. Corrections were maxed out in the positive range. Idle was really rough. Then I realized that all the adjustments I previously made were to compensate for their poor performance.
I just reinstalled the stock injectors. Engine runs like a top now (almost). Idle seems to be a tiny bit rough, but not as bad as with the 850s. Guess I didn't really know how bad it was until I switched back ! Anyway, I pulled up learning view after a 20 minute drive and everything's within 3% learned corrections. Amazing, right? My idle is hanging between 695-735 rpms, not the 750 target in the map. Looks like an IACV issue. I do have a leaky turbo, so I wouldn't be surprised if it's dirty. Sending those 850s out for flow testing & cleaning asap.

Last edited by Pandasaurus_rex; 08-05-2012 at 12:38 PM.
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