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Old 07-24-2012, 06:21 PM   #2601
the suicidal eggroll
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jayoung View Post
Is there a reason you can't use existing wiring? (Just curious)
You mean how it's already wired from the factory? The size of the wire is too small, which creates a large voltage drop, reducing the output of the pump. If you want to hard wire it, then you need to do it with some real wire, none of that puny 18 gauge crap they use in the stock wiring harness. I ran 8 gauge from the batt to the relay box (running two pumps), then 12 gauge from the relay box to each pump.
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Old 07-25-2012, 11:18 AM   #2602
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Originally Posted by jayoung View Post
Is there a reason you can't use existing wiring? (Just curious)

I have been running a 400lph in-tank on my 08 for months. Driven at least 60 miles everyday, frequently 23psi, on E85, and OE pump wires. No issues. I dont know how bad the OE wires are on pre 08, but when I checked mine (did some current draw tests with amp clamp), I was pleasently surprised at the size of the hot. The wire going through the sump pass-through to the pump is another story....

I would hard wire the pump as a last resort when attempting to squeeze out as much flow as possible to avoid stepping up pump size.. The OE PWM control scheme is great and even with the big 400lph and -8 sending Im able to retain the OE return lines and experience no pressure creep.
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Old 07-25-2012, 12:53 PM   #2603
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Originally Posted by albersondh View Post
I have been running a 400lph in-tank on my 08 for months. Driven at least 60 miles everyday, frequently 23psi, on E85, and OE pump wires. No issues. I dont know how bad the OE wires are on pre 08, but when I checked mine (did some current draw tests with amp clamp), I was pleasently surprised at the size of the hot. The wire going through the sump pass-through to the pump is another story....

I would hard wire the pump as a last resort when attempting to squeeze out as much flow as possible to avoid stepping up pump size.. The OE PWM control scheme is great and even with the big 400lph and -8 sending Im able to retain the OE return lines and experience no pressure creep.
How's the voltage at WOT?
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Old 07-25-2012, 06:13 PM   #2604
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i also am running the stock fuel pump hot (which on my 02 wrx is 16 AWG not 18AWG if i remember correctly) with a dw300 and a kenne bell boost-a-pump. i have a voltage gauge hooked up off my oem clock pod wiring (which should basically show me approx. the same voltage that the fuel pump is seeing), and it was usually between 12.5-13.5 volts depending on what electrical items and what rpm's i was running (headlights, wipers, defrost, etc...basically idle in the winter time at night was the worst ). i also am running a vishnu underdrive crank pulley (but i did swap from the 2.0L alternator to the 2.5L alternator...90amps vs. 70amps).

the reason i decided to just go ahead with the boost-a-pump instead of attempting a rewire was because even with a complete rewire, the most output i would have seen at my boost level was 250lph from the dw300 by itself, but my injectors were demanding about 270lph (1250cc@90%IDC). so a re-wire would not have helped me enough to fix my problems.

my max amps i am running even with the boost-a-pump is still well under the 22amp limit for 16AWG wiring. heck, even if it was 18AWG wiring, i still would be okay in terms of amps. i am even still running the original 15amp fuse for the fuel pump.

IMO, you should re-wire the fuel pump if...

A. your fuel system will exceed the max amps of the stock wiring

...or...

B. if a re-wire will give you that small bump in voltage to give you JUST enough fuel to meet your goals or requirements.

...if you aren't exceeding the max amps of the wiring and/or you aren't going to gain enough fuel flow by doing just the re-wire, then why bother. just get a bigger pump or add something to bump your current pump's voltage up higher than just a re-wire would.



Just FYI for people...the kenne bell boost-a-pump stabilizes voltage output no matter what the input from the battery is (down to 11V). for example, if i run it at 100%, even if my battery voltage drops down to 12.5V, the fuel pump will be seeing 17V.

Last edited by amalgrover; 07-25-2012 at 08:20 PM.
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Old 07-25-2012, 06:48 PM   #2605
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Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
my max amps i am running even with the boost-a-pump is still well under the 22amp limit for 16AWG wiring. heck, even if it was 18AWG wiring, i still would be okay in terms of amps. i am even still running the original 15amp fuse for the fuel pump.
The current limit for the wire size doesn't matter, you'll run into voltage problems well before you hit that current limit. 16 awg has 4.016 mohm/foot of resistance. Say the wiring from the battery to the pump is 15 feet long with all of the routing they're doing, that's .06 ohms. At 15 amps, that's nearly a volt you're dropping in the wiring, which will drop fuel pump capacity by around 10%.

With 18 awg, you'd be dropping a volt and a half, which brings the 13.5v you're seeing at the dash to 12v at the pump and drops fuel pump capacity by around 15%.

These aren't trivial voltage drops we're talking here.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:15 PM   #2606
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you kind of used that quote out of context. what i am saying is that if you are going to be running something like dual walbro 400's, you are clearly going to be exceeding the current limit of the stock wiring. so whether you demand more flow or not, a re-wire needs to be done just because of the amount of amperage you will be drawing.

the current limit for the wire size DOES matter. in fact, i would put the current limit at a much higher priority than voltage levels being read. if you exceed this limit, you are going to cause a fire. it won't really matter WHAT kind of voltage you are seeing because fuel pump flow is the least of your worries when the first time you go WOT the car catches on fire.

the stock fuel pump wiring is 16AWG; the wiring for the clock pod is 18AWG at best. the wiring for the clock pod is just about the same length as the fuel pump wiring, and therefore, the voltage drop across the wiring for the clock pod would actually probably be more than the voltage drop across the pump wiring. so the voltage drop for the gauge should actually be a very good indication of what the pump is seeing (like i said).

also, as i said before, for me, this voltage drop doesn't matter anymore because the boost-a-pump provides the fuel pump a constant voltage no matter what the input voltage is. whether it's 11.5V or 13.5, the fuel pump will see the same 13.5-17V (depending on what you have the adjustment knob set at).

in reality, if you read my post again, you will see the point i was making is that it doesn't really matter if the voltage drop was 0.5V or 2V. because even if i re-wired and was getting a full 13.5V to the DW300, at 70psi it only flows 250lph but my injectors were demanding about 270lph. so whether the pump is flowing 180lph vs. 250lph, it doesn't really matter because neither of those are meeting the 270lph that i was demanding of it.

Last edited by amalgrover; 07-25-2012 at 08:25 PM.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:31 PM   #2607
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Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
the current limit for the wire size DOES matter. in fact, i would put the current limit at a much higher priority than voltage levels being read. if you exceed this limit, you are going to cause a fire. it won't really matter WHAT kind of voltage you are seeing because fuel pump flow is the least of your worries when the first time you go WOT the car catches on fire.
True, I think that anybody who tries to pull >22 amps through 15 feet of 16awg needs to get their head examined though, that's an absurd amount of current through tiny wire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
the stock fuel pump wiring is 16AWG; the wiring for the clock pod is 18AWG at best. the wiring for the clock pod is just about the same length as the fuel pump wiring, and therefore, the voltage drop across the wiring for the clock pod would actually probably be more than the voltage drop across the pump wiring. so the voltage drop for the gauge should actually be a very good indication of what the pump is seeing (like i said).
Except that the clock pod draws a few mA, while the fuel pump draws >10A. Voltage drop is resistance * current. The voltage drop at the clock pod is going to be miniscule compared to the drop at the pump, even though the wire is slightly smaller to the clock pod simply due to the several-orders-of-magnitude difference in current draw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
also, as i said before, for me, this voltage drop doesn't matter anymore because the boost-a-pump provides the fuel pump a constant voltage no matter what the input voltage is. whether it's 11.5V or 13.5, the fuel pump will see the same 13.5-17V (depending on what you have the adjustment knob set at).

in reality, if you read my post again, you will see the point i was making is that it doesn't really matter if the voltage drop was 2V. because even if i re-wired and was getting a full 13.5V to the DW300, at 70psi it only flows 250lph but my injectors were demanding about 270lph. so whether the pump is flowing 180lph vs. 250lph, it doesn't really matter because neither of those are meeting the 270lph that i was demanding of it.
I wasn't really commenting on your setup in particular. I know you needed the boost-a-pump, and I know it doesn't care about input voltage drop since the output is regulated. I was commenting on your implication that 16awg is perfectly fine for fuel pump wiring because 15A < 22A, and therefore there's no problem. Remember that 22A is the absolute maximum safe current rating of 16 awg, however it is FAR from ideal. The maximum current for power transmission from 16 awg is around 3-4 amps. 15 amps should really be using 10 awg or larger. There are significant improvements to be had in fuel pump capacity even at the Walbro 255 level from rewiring. If nothing else, you could save yourself $50 by rewiring a Walbro 255 versus installing a DW300 on the stock wiring...fuel flow will be about the same.

Last edited by the suicidal eggroll; 07-25-2012 at 08:37 PM.
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Old 07-25-2012, 08:34 PM   #2608
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I was creeping a tad lean on the 255. When I did the current test it was just to compare the 255 to the 400. So many people complain about toasting pump controlers I wanted to find the threashold. I didnt record volts at the pump, not concerned because the huge jump from 255 to 400, would/did clear up my lean creep, and supply enough overhead for my current power goals. This is what a 400 in-tank on -8 sending, OE return, 43psi base pressure, and OE pump wires (08+) and controler will do (Weldon FPR), link in this thread to log.
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Old 07-25-2012, 09:20 PM   #2609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the suicidal eggroll View Post
I wasn't really commenting on your setup in particular. I know you needed the boost-a-pump, and I know it doesn't care about input voltage drop since the output is regulated. I was commenting on your implication that 16awg is perfectly fine for fuel pump wiring because 15A < 22A, and therefore there's no problem. Remember that 22A is the absolute maximum safe current rating of 16 awg, however it is FAR from ideal. The maximum current for power transmission from 16 awg is around 3-4 amps. 15 amps should really be using 10 awg or larger. There are significant improvements to be had in fuel pump capacity even at the Walbro 255 level from rewiring. If nothing else, you could save yourself $50 by rewiring a Walbro 255 versus installing a DW300 on the stock wiring...fuel flow will be about the same.
i agree with this completely. i was not saying that 16AWG is perfectly fine for fuel pump wiring in general, but what i was saying is that the stock 16AWG wiring is fine if you are not exceeding it or needing more voltage at the pump.

take the guy who is running a DW300 with a VF48. he is not going to have any issues running the stock wiring. in fact, you are correct in saying that someone like him could have saved $50 by installing a walbro 255 with new wiring. this would have bumped him to probably just over 200lph from that walbro 255. this actually would put the dw300 on the stock wiring and the walbro 255 with the rewire at very close to the same pump output.

basically, my point was that people should look at how much flow their current pump with a re-wire would give them. then they need to look at how much flow the fuel pump they are considering with stock wiring is going to flow and how much current they are going to be drawing. THEN...they also need to look at the max demand their fuel injectors are putting on the fuel pump (how many lph they actually require). if the current fuel pump re-wired will flow enough fuel to meet the demands being asked of it, then a re-wire is going to be the better choice. if the re-wired current pump does not flow enough, then they would want to go with the new higher flowing pump. now, if the new higher flowing pump is going to be drawing more than 15amps, then they are going to want to re-wire even with the new pump, but because of current draw and not because of voltage drops.

i think that alot of people (including myself at one point in time) do little to no research on the flow capabilities of their injectors and actually match it to their fuel pump's output. i think most people tend to just assume that what is popular will probably work or think that a walbro 400, dual wabro 255's, etc are plenty big enough. when boost actually is factored in, dual walbros 255's or a walbro 400 are only able to flow about enough to match 1400cc injectors. think of all the people running 1600cc injectors on pumps like DW300's on the stock fuel pump wiring. those guys that are running those setups technically are maxing out the fuel system at anything over about 50% IDC .



to sum everything up...people need to research their flow requirements and compare them to their pumps flow capabilities at certain voltage. then they need to select parts according to this research.
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Old 07-25-2012, 10:21 PM   #2610
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Agreed wholeheartedly
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Old 08-11-2012, 08:22 PM   #2611
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alright so i just had the conversion done to E85. tuner has *a map in just to get me running. before i go and get the thing dyno tuned, two issues:

was idling fine. go to start the car up cold this morning and the bastard won't start and ends up flooding on me.

was fine when driving couple days ago. yesterday start it up to go somewhere, and any more than about 25% throttle and it jerks and lurches and carries on.

i know just enough about tuning to be dangerous. something i can do to the map(s) to try and fix the throttling or starting problem?
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Old 08-11-2012, 09:53 PM   #2612
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did you change injectors or were these injectors previously tuned on pump?
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Old 08-11-2012, 10:24 PM   #2613
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Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
did you change injectors or were these injectors previously tuned on pump?
change the injectors. and yeah, just checking them over one of the orings was leaking

sorted that out, then one of the plug leads was off

as a result i've gone and flooded it again
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Old 08-11-2012, 10:41 PM   #2614
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well, those could be the issues...

...but my original reason i asked if you changed injectors is because alot of times when you have light to medium throttle surging it is caused by the injector tables being off.
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:27 AM   #2615
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well, those could be the issues...

...but my original reason i asked if you changed injectors is because alot of times when you have light to medium throttle surging it is caused by the injector tables being off.
so how do i fix that?

thing is it was working fine a couple days ago with him in the car. took it for a drive etc. park & leave it for the night and next day, it lurches and carries on.
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Old 08-12-2012, 12:40 AM   #2616
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well...if fixing the leak and loose connector didn't fix it (make sure you reset the ecu after fixing this stuff), then i would get in touch with your tuner and explain everything that is going on. i mean, essentially, this is exactly what you are paying him for. if the injector tables need adjusting, you are paying him to know how to adjust them. could you eventually figure them out, yes, but why should you have to when you are paying someone to do that for you?
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Old 08-12-2012, 03:49 AM   #2617
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Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
well...if fixing the leak and loose connector didn't fix it (make sure you reset the ecu after fixing this stuff), then i would get in touch with your tuner and explain everything that is going on. i mean, essentially, this is exactly what you are paying him for. if the injector tables need adjusting, you are paying him to know how to adjust them. could you eventually figure them out, yes, but why should you have to when you are paying someone to do that for you?
because he simply gave me a map to get me running before i get to the dyno. he hasn't been paid. in fact he won't even be the one tuning it on the dyno as the owner won't hire it out to him.

as i said, he just gave me a very basic map so i can (or, could) drive the car. that was all.

at the moment with the whole throttle position thing, hills are a no-go.

Last edited by vicious_fishes; 08-12-2012 at 04:13 PM.
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Old 08-12-2012, 03:49 PM   #2618
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I'm 500 miles away from 100,000 miles as an FFV...
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:27 PM   #2619
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ugh and now i've fixed everything i have bloody cold start issues...
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Old 08-12-2012, 09:34 PM   #2620
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cold start issues are pretty normal to have at first...if everything else is working okay, and the car is just a little hard to cold start but still starts, i would just let it ride until the actual tune. if it is unable to really be started cold, you need to adjust your cranking tables up or down accordingly.
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Old 08-13-2012, 02:24 AM   #2621
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cold start issues are pretty normal to have at first...if everything else is working okay, and the car is just a little hard to cold start but still starts, i would just let it ride until the actual tune. if it is unable to really be started cold, you need to adjust your cranking tables up or down accordingly.
yep that's me. can't start it.

cranking tables?
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:03 AM   #2622
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yep that's me. can't start it.

cranking tables?
Yes - cranking tables. Try bumping the IPW up 10% from 68* down to add more fuel during cranking. Repeat this a few times if you need to and see if it becomes more willing to start.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:03 AM   #2623
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so EVERYTHING else is working fine except it is hard to start when its cold? i am just slightly confused as to what exactly the symptoms are currently. if it is just hard to start cold and that is the only problem, then the cranking tables need to be adjusted (either up or down...just try adding, and if you try that a couple times and it gets worse, try removing), but if you have driveability issues along with it, then injector or maf tables are probably a more likely culprit than cranking tables alone.

how long until you get your actual tune?
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Old 08-13-2012, 01:26 PM   #2624
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I doubt it's the MAF or injector tables for startup. The cranking tables are raw IPW tables. No scaling is used for that.
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Old 08-13-2012, 04:14 PM   #2625
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Alcohols are cr@p to ignite properly let alone when the engine is cold. Expect to add quite a bit of Cold start enrichment. Then it should be OK.
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