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Old 07-09-2012, 05:08 PM   #951
DoomsdayFAN
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Did you ever take it too the drag stip and go all out to see what kind of times you could run? Think it's possible to hit in the 11s with 400 whp? (Especially if youve got on lighter wheels)
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Old 07-10-2012, 04:23 PM   #952
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awesome article. Good read and very resourceful.

Now starting to feel silly about trying to build a 400hp GC8 for track lol...
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Old 07-11-2012, 12:24 AM   #953
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Great advice.Im new to awd and subaru but not new to tuning.Ive owned a few a modded cars and have been into tuning since my first car.The other advice that would be good is to make sure when you do try and reach these power goals to not forget about tires traction etc.My brother has a 2004 Mustang Cobra it put 446 hp on a dyno and from the stock tire and size vs the 19x12 is night and day and as the op stated you will just spin around and lose control.I purchased my bug eye and was wanting 400-500 HP as well but since im new to awd and turbo i decided to learn about the vehicle first.Right now i have a Cobb SF intake,Srs exhaust,JDM Sti V7 up pipe,Cobb AP running a ots stage 1 map and some rota grids 17x9.Car def has more go than stock and i feel ready to do a down pipe and stage 2 and i really think i will be happy with that for quite a while as stage 2 with a few other mods EBC etc will net me around 2220-250 HP i feel that is a safe comfort zone to pass vehicles and still be realistic at the same time.
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:58 PM   #954
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Funny how i read this sticky and brushed it off wish i didnt.
After, i found out that my car is was done i had no choice but to get it fixed. During the process i wanted all forged internals nitrade crank the whole motor was re built but , after the motor was getting built i wanted a fmic i wanted bigger injectors and turbo etc and now i have a car that can push 400whp on pump gas. The truth is i dont want it anymore i never race bc i know the only comp is like amg or the new muscle out there very rarely i make that dumb decision anymore and go well over a 100 mph on California highways because i want the thrill. I love my car but 240whp was perfect for me now im stuck with a huge debt thats taking a toll on my marriage and miss hitting boost in the high 2's. Im only going to tune my car to like 290 whp maybe even less because now my weak point is you guessed it the 5spd! which is like 4 grand build for the 6 spd yeah thats not going to happen anytime soon. Take it from me to all you new subby owners that are brushing this off DONT! i made a huge mistake the more power the more problems and if my car goes boom im out of a car and i cant afford a down time car or ill be screwed
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Old 07-30-2012, 12:17 AM   #955
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Great post! I just got my first STI and I will be thinking long and hard about mods that get me to 400 hp.

Can an STI run on stage 2 stuff without hurting the engine and car?
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Old 07-30-2012, 08:06 AM   #956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_troy1983 View Post
Great post! I just got my first STI and I will be thinking long and hard about mods that get me to 400 hp.

Can an STI run on stage 2 stuff without hurting the engine and car?
Stage 2 is pretty much indestructible with a good tune. Go for it.
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Old 07-30-2012, 12:17 PM   #957
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Originally Posted by rexblake View Post
Stage 2 is pretty much indestructible with a good tune. Go for it.
Do you have to do the stages in order?

Can you take a stock sti and just go right to a stage 2 setup? What I mean is....do I need stage 1 parts first then stage 2 then a new tune?

Thanks,
Nathan
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Old 07-30-2012, 12:31 PM   #958
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Stage 1 is just a tune, stage 2 is a tune with a downpipe. You can go directly to any "stage" you want really. You could go straight to a turbo swap with all the supporting mods if you want, just need a tune for it.
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Old 07-30-2012, 12:41 PM   #959
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Great write up! I didn't want that much power but this definitely puts things into perspective for me. Perspective meaning --> I'm not ready.
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Old 07-30-2012, 08:13 PM   #960
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Great write up, answered a lot of questions I had.
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:12 PM   #961
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Excellent points Original Poster... good food for thought.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:14 PM   #962
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rexblake View Post
Stage 1 is just a tune, stage 2 is a tune with a downpipe. You can go directly to any "stage" you want really. You could go straight to a turbo swap with all the supporting mods if you want, just need a tune for it.
The stages arent the same with every tuner company. Some companies stage 1 is an upgraded turbo.


But for the purpose of talking about what is commonly referred to as stages, yeah you are correct.



Just clarifying it
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:17 PM   #963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_troy1983 View Post
Great post! I just got my first STI and I will be thinking long and hard about mods that get me to 400 hp.

Can an STI run on stage 2 stuff without hurting the engine and car?
400Chp is a lot more reasonable and cheaper than 400whp

Its also a lot better for daily driving (at least in subies)


400chp (crank hp, at the motor) is a standard 20G setup at about 19PSI. Unfortunately, you will still likely need pistons, and for most WRX owners, a new transmission.

But its a sane power level, its enough to run LOW 12s and trap well over 110, so in other words, its fast. (well, what most people consider fast)
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:18 PM   #964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DabiDa View Post
Great advice.Im new to awd and subaru but not new to tuning.Ive owned a few a modded cars and have been into tuning since my first car.The other advice that would be good is to make sure when you do try and reach these power goals to not forget about tires traction etc.My brother has a 2004 Mustang Cobra it put 446 hp on a dyno and from the stock tire and size vs the 19x12 is night and day and as the op stated you will just spin around and lose control.I purchased my bug eye and was wanting 400-500 HP as well but since im new to awd and turbo i decided to learn about the vehicle first.Right now i have a Cobb SF intake,Srs exhaust,JDM Sti V7 up pipe,Cobb AP running a ots stage 1 map and some rota grids 17x9.Car def has more go than stock and i feel ready to do a down pipe and stage 2 and i really think i will be happy with that for quite a while as stage 2 with a few other mods EBC etc will net me around 2220-250 HP i feel that is a safe comfort zone to pass vehicles and still be realistic at the same time.
If you can safely handle 446whp in a RWD car, you can handle 400whp in an AWD vehicle. While the AWD car will get to speed faster, the RWD car will be more of a handful.
That said, it will still cost an arm and a leg to do it reliably in the Subie.
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Old 08-14-2012, 12:20 PM   #965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devlin0311 View Post
Funny how i read this sticky and brushed it off wish i didnt.
After, i found out that my car is was done i had no choice but to get it fixed. During the process i wanted all forged internals nitrade crank the whole motor was re built but , after the motor was getting built i wanted a fmic i wanted bigger injectors and turbo etc and now i have a car that can push 400whp on pump gas. The truth is i dont want it anymore i never race bc i know the only comp is like amg or the new muscle out there very rarely i make that dumb decision anymore and go well over a 100 mph on California highways because i want the thrill. I love my car but 240whp was perfect for me now im stuck with a huge debt thats taking a toll on my marriage and miss hitting boost in the high 2's. Im only going to tune my car to like 290 whp maybe even less because now my weak point is you guessed it the 5spd! which is like 4 grand build for the 6 spd yeah thats not going to happen anytime soon. Take it from me to all you new subby owners that are brushing this off DONT! i made a huge mistake the more power the more problems and if my car goes boom im out of a car and i cant afford a down time car or ill be screwed



Im going to link this to the first post. This is exactly what I am talking about. People decide they NEED 400whp, because its a nice round number and sounds crazy, then this is what happens to SO many.
This is also why I bought a mustang Reliability at higher HP numbers is more important to me nowadays. Its taking forever to pay off the debt I brought on making my fast subies.

*edit*
crap I posted the first part on my vendor acct, which is dead.
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Old 08-19-2012, 09:37 PM   #966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
The stages arent the same with every tuner company. Some companies stage 1 is an upgraded turbo.


But for the purpose of talking about what is commonly referred to as stages, yeah you are correct.



Just clarifying it
great input
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:08 PM   #967
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Subaru's can't handle 400whp.
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Old 08-19-2012, 10:45 PM   #968
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Quote:
Originally Posted by STi Lol View Post
Subaru's can't handle 400whp.
In bone stock form? no. But there are many of us pushing a lot more.

Subaru's can handle 400whp+. Just depends on how much $$ you want to spend.
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Old 09-10-2012, 02:51 AM   #969
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+1 nice writeup
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Old 09-11-2012, 01:43 PM   #970
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Great article.
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Old 09-13-2012, 01:15 PM   #971
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Good article, just bought my first one, of course the thrill of researching and buying my wrx has made me want to invest lots of money to be fast, but as soon as I found this forum I realized there is so much more to it than that. Reliability, style, individuality and realism on what my limits should be.
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Old 09-13-2012, 03:40 PM   #972
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OP well done! 1 year ago I wanted 400chp. I've now realized that since it's a DD and i'm tuned to around 300whp I really don't need much more. Just to run with my buddies' GC8 really lol
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:40 PM   #973
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Defiant Autospeed View Post
I see these posts on a weekly basis. We all do. It always makes me feel really aprehensive (sp?) when I read it. So I just wanted to put this out there for those that are asking this question.


Are you relatively new to the Subaru thing? Have you ever owned a TRUELY high performance import before? Have you ever owned any HIGH powered car before? Do you have fairly deep pockets?

If you say no to any or all of the above, then I beg you, please read on.


Many many times people have come into the Newbie forum and made the statement "My goal is 400whp" and they almost always JUST got the car.

It needs to be said, and anyone wanting 400whp needs to understand that 400whp is a LOT of power, and it takes a LOT to get there, and even more to do it reliably.

What will get you there?
Well, that depends on the dyno and tuner, along with how agressively you tune it. Dynos read differently and what makes 400whp on one dyny will make 450 on another, an 340 on yet others. Do you want 400whp on your local high reading dyno? Or do you want a TRUE 400whp that will make 400whp on almost any dyno out there?

In general you can hit 400whp on pump gas with something like (this is speaking of a 2.5L motor)

FP green turbocharger (this is larger than a 20G, its a 20G with a 49lb wheel)
Intake (GOOD intake, there are a few)
Front mount intercooler
Injectors
Pump
turboback exhaust. Catless prefered for this turbo and power goal. 3" would definately be recommended but 2.5 wouldnt hold it back much if at all.
Headers or P&P manifold and better crossover pipe.
Larger/better up pipe Definately recommended.

Custom tune obviously, and to hit 400whp you will likely need 24+PSI.
If you run alcohol injection you will get there easier and safer at a little lower boost. This setup will not reach 400whp on all dynos, but it will get you there on most.



Or, and this would MUCH more easily hit 400whp, and on many more dynos. I consider this a "true" 400whp setup.

GT30R rotated mount turbo kit
Front mount intercooler
Header to go with whatever up pipe that setup uses, even better if they make a header specifically for their rotated kit.
Injectors
fuel pump
Intake (this will be part of the rotated kit most likely)
Custom tune obviously.

Alcohol injection, again would allow lower boost/safer tune to hit 400whp, but this setup shouldnt have any problems hitting 400whp on pump gas by itself. Well over 400whp on race gas, I have seen 500whp on this setup with race gas on a semi high reading dyno.


So great, now you have 400whp.
Lets look at what the hidden costs are.

Clutch- Stock wont last long for 95% of people with this much power.
Flywheel- most do a light flywheel when they do a clutch. You may or may not.
Motor mounts are HIGHLY recommended at this point. Thats a lot of TQing around that the motor will be doing. The stock mounts were designed to hold a 300chp/300ctq motor still and keep noise at a reasonable level. If you are putting 400 to the WHEELS you are easily at 475 crank hp. Over 50% past what the stock mounts were made to handle.

Then lets look at the reliability limit of the stock motor.
400whp has been, since 2004 when the 2.5 came out shown itself to be the reliability limit of the stock pistons/rings. The rule of thumb is, upgrade the turbo, plan on a new shortblock. On something like a 20G or larger, at 20+PSI boost, its no longer a matter of IF, but when. There are of course some rare cases where someone makes 400whp for 50k+ miles, but believe me when I say this, that is RARE. Many with a good tune blow up well below 400whp. Best case scenario, pull the motor out and do pistons before you even install your 400whp setup. The crank/rods should be fine at this power level. Even so, doing a set of pistons can be a close to or just over $2000 investment, depending on what pistons and installer you use. Plan on at least $1500 to get some good forged pistons into your motor. Remember you will be paying for a full gasket kit, and with the motor apart a new timing belt and water pump is never a bad idea. Figure in oil and a filter as well. Small cost parts, but it adds up very quickly.

Then lets look at the safety aspect. 400whp is a LOT of power. In the hands of an unexperienced driver, it is quite litterally a deadly amount of power, especially so in an AWD car that can put the power down. 400whp in a RWD car is one thing, stomp on the gas at 40mph and you get massive wheelspin. Do it in an AWD car and you get hard acceleration. Are you experienced enough? The answer is in almost every case, no. Why? Lets use an example.

You are doing 65mph on the highway in a stock STI, or even light mods. You want to pass someone. Most will pass at roughly 85mph to get around that person. So you give it X amount of throttle, you dont look at the speedo because you have done it a million times, and you accelerate to 85mph.
Now lets swap that out for a 400whp car.
You are doing 65mph, you apply the same amount of throttle to do it, you are VERY quickly doing 90mph, you feel how hard it pulls so you back off a bit, but its all relative and even though it doesnt feel like its pulling as hard, its still pulling harder than it was when stock/lightly modded. You are doing well over 100mph by the time you get around that car.
Now someone comes over into your lane forcing you to turn and go around them while braking HARD. This is a delicate move.

Or, you decide you want to do a hard long pull. The kind that we all love, that puts a big dumb grin on our faces from feeling the seat pushing into our backs. You would have previously made it up to maybe 100-110mph.
So you are in the same place, same stretch of road. You do it again. Now you are doing 140 where you would have been doing 100. Go ahead, hit a bump at 140mph, and see how it feels. What was a "whump" at 100mph can quite litterally throw a 140mph vehicle into the air.

Your STI is a high performance vehicle that can handle high speeds and save your butt from a lot of dumb moves, but its not magic. AWD and the yaw sensors and such can only do so much, they arent miracle workers.

And if not for your own safety, think about what happens if you are doing the kinds of speeds you will EASILY hit with this kind of power and you hit another vehicle.


You may say "yeah but I wont do that kind of thing" That is all well and good, but the reality is that the more power you have, the more often you will drive at higher speeds than you did at the lower power level. I dont care who you are, its an almost 100% chance.





So lets review.

Do you REALLY know what this power goal will end up costing you?
Are you prepared to spend that kind of money?
Are you a good enough driver to handle that kind of power?

Have you even driven a 350whp STI?




My advice to those with a stock/lightly modded (like AP stage 2) STI/WRX, would be to take it in smaller steps. Most of the people I have met that wanted 400whp, were scared out of their mind when I took them out in a 330whp subby. Heck my 309whp 2.0Lwrx scared a lot of them.
Do this if you have a "stage 2" car (make sure you have these parts)

Custom tune. A GOOD custom tune. Do research before you pick a tuner. just because they own a shop doesnt make them good.
Full exh.
FMIC
20G@20PSI
injectors and pump.

Because that will be as much or more than 90% of people here will ever want or need. If you want more, drive that around for 6 months to get a handle on what the power is like.

if you are bone stock,
Do this.

Full exh
GOOD custom tune


Of course much of this is opinion, however this is opinion coming from 18+ years of driving, 15+ of those in high powered cars, 10 years of import scene and tuning experience and 5 years of Subaru specific tuning/driving and really importantly in this case, Meeting and speaking to people on Nasioc. So I like to think that it holds SOME truth to it at least

Opinion or not, I assure you the message behind it holds true and you should really take it all to heart if 400whp is your true goal.
Great advice man
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Old 09-20-2012, 04:44 PM   #974
glyne
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Great advice man really good. One question im in the process of purchasing a blouch 5.0 xtl turbo, do you know what size turbo blanket that would fit whether is a T3,T4,T5 or T6 i have been looking at blanket from PTP.com. Thanks for your help
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Old 09-25-2012, 03:49 PM   #975
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DDScooby
This is probably a good common sense for a lot of the younger guys to take heed to. Though, when I was younger it didn't matter much. So whatever.

Having come from the RWD world and having two built Mustangs, each over 400+ RWHP, is no real big deal and riding in other's cars that the front end comes up off the ground is invigorating to say the least. However, the first time I rode in my friend Jason's 04 STi w/just a 20G, FMIC, etc with approx. 335whp. I had the living sh(t scared out of me for the first time in a car.

The following Summer (and some in the CT area might recall this) a car load of kids (ages 16-19) in a bone stock WRX wrapped the car around a telephone pole....ironically next to a cemetary in Bristol, CT...two days later another WRX with two guys (mid twenties) took a corner too fast in Waterbury (iirc) and basically you couldn't distinguish the WRX from the font end loader it plastered itself against. That car was MAYBE a cobb stage 2.

Those three incidents were convincing enough to tell me I do NOT have the wherewithal or experience under my belt, which is roughly 10 years with high performance vehicles. As of right now, I have a 6spd swap underway in my WRX coupled with a built motor and a VF22 (w/supporting mods). And the ONLY reason for the 6spd is because after 300+k miles on the stock 5MT third gear finally gave up and punched out.

After roughly a year with the built motor and VF22 I consciously said "OK, I'm ready for more". Even still getting in other people's cars to see if I still wanted to make that leap passed 300hp/tq.

I personally think there should be an addition of personal cost added to the OP.

-Traffic tickets: With 400+whp it's just a forgone conclusion YOU ARE GOING TO GET THEM

-Attention: And not the good kind either. That open exhaust will undoubtedly piss off neighbors, attract the "hipster/flat brim I gotta cold air intake and I can race" kind of crowd. Trust me, after going through 5 rear bumpers for brake checking them...it something to consider...I carry my .45 in my car now for that reason.

-Safety, Safety, and SAFETY: For the love of god...freeways, parkways, highways, biways, driveways are NOT places to f**k around. And a 400+whp will get you in a whole heap of trouble VERY quick, and that AWD will not save your ass; I don't care what modifications you have.

I think the ABSOLUTE best mod for ANY car pushing through the 280-300whp range is a beater car. Leave the beast at home when making the commute to school, work or chasing the tail. You'll save yourself money, trouble, anxiety and more importantly your life. Get HonDUH civic DX, Ford Focus, Chevy Aveo, or a friggin Prius for cryin out loud. Then you can go ballin and be like "yeah, I gotz two cars!".

my $.02
Thx a lot man... I have 2012 hyundai accent as a DD and 2011 sti sedan for weekend fun . I almost went all out (35 r rotated kit , fm etc etc all the supporting mods..wasn't even thinking about a built motor for that setup) within only two months of owning my very first Subaru. I guess all the fast and furious type of movie got me brainwashed ..anyways, I'm glad that one of my buddies taught me a good hard lesson of his that changed my crazy plan down to a more reasonable plan of getting a 20g, fuel pump injector and protune.. Now as I learned more and more about our modding world, I have decided to learn how to drive first and then go to the next lvl when I have the skill to fully enjoy driving my car ..I am selling all my parts now and then invest some money on suspension . Thx for ur great input again!
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