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Old 06-27-2012, 02:01 AM   #451
A.childress
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I find this thread to be very interesting.
I learned in school studying different braking systems that the increased surface area of larger brakes did in fact change the speed in which the rotors hit zero. Which should logically reduce stopping distances. But if what the op suggests is true then I appear to be very mistaken. I suppose it makes sense as you can lock up any wheel with any brake system with a simple press of the pedal. However, I cant help but wonder if there is some high end speed (say like 200mph) where the single pot caliper would fall off and not stop the disk. All logic would say that at some speed the friction of the brake pads will not stop the rotors.

I will say that for daily driving I would agree the size makes no difference.

And I looked up some statistics for stopping distances. and as the op said I found the sti did have slightly shorter stopping distances. And if the op is correct it is due to the tires. So if anything, a 2.5i with the sti tires will stop the same. I'd really like to see that tested.
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Old 07-06-2012, 05:12 AM   #452
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Now my question to all of y'all which tire is absolutely hands down the best tire for say south Texas, a good all weather tire that will last but still help with retaining traction.
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Old 07-10-2012, 04:15 PM   #453
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That was super helpful thank you!
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Old 07-12-2012, 03:26 PM   #454
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very nice wright up......
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Old 07-12-2012, 05:53 PM   #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A.childress View Post
I find this thread to be very interesting.
I learned in school studying different braking systems that the increased surface area of larger brakes did in fact change the speed in which the rotors hit zero. Which should logically reduce stopping distances. But if what the op suggests is true then I appear to be very mistaken. I suppose it makes sense as you can lock up any wheel with any brake system with a simple press of the pedal. However, I cant help but wonder if there is some high end speed (say like 200mph) where the single pot caliper would fall off and not stop the disk. All logic would say that at some speed the friction of the brake pads will not stop the rotors.

I will say that for daily driving I would agree the size makes no difference.

And I looked up some statistics for stopping distances. and as the op said I found the sti did have slightly shorter stopping distances. And if the op is correct it is due to the tires. So if anything, a 2.5i with the sti tires will stop the same. I'd really like to see that tested.
You are correct in regards to the fact of how long it takes for the rotor to hit zero. But locked up tires are the rotor hitting zero. If you are just testing a wheel running without contact with the ground and without the weight of a car on top of it then this works. But once you add the weight of the car things change. There is an upper limit to how fast you are going to stop the forward momentum of the car. You can stop the rotation of the wheel, but if you stop that and their is still forward momentum all you are doing is sliding forward on the tires like ski's. The point of the post is that upgrading only makes sense from a heat standpoint if you are on the track. Otherwise brake fade isn't a concern which means the stock brakes just have to work the first time. The limiting factor then is determined by the weight of the car and the coefficient of friction between the tires and the road.
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Old 07-16-2012, 03:15 AM   #456
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So much bad info still out here. It is refreshing to hear the truth on this brake subject.This article will save me money , but more important it will save me from being ignorant about my car. I would like more info like this regarding other aspects of the wrx,s performance , what makes sense & what is a waste of money.
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Old 07-20-2012, 12:56 AM   #457
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You know in my mind if I attempt to think about it...the break upgrades make sense. BUT after reading this post and thinking about it logically...I can see that my mind lies.

Awesome post.
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Old 07-20-2012, 01:17 AM   #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvananden
You know in my mind if I attempt to think about it...the break upgrades make sense. BUT after reading this post and thinking about it logically...I can see that my mind lies.

Awesome post.
Depends entirely on you're driving/needs
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:22 PM   #459
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whats the widest rim you can go on an 02 wrx? will 18s affect my suspension if i put tein lowering springs on it? just got my subaru so im just getting into all this
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:02 PM   #460
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^ this is NOT the place for this question...tire and wheel forum would be better...OR BETTER YET, there are plenty of threads already done with this info about what wheel and tire setup work on what car.
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Old 07-30-2012, 04:08 PM   #461
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Hmm, can't believe there's still debate on this thread. Oh wait, yes I can, because people who will never drive their cars in anger want an excuse for bling.

I still want upgraded calipers and rotors, but that's more because I like a stiffer pedal and because I want them than for any *good* reason.
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Old 08-05-2012, 02:50 PM   #462
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funny, yet informative rant/post
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Old 08-05-2012, 03:34 PM   #463
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Knowledge.
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:49 AM   #464
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mekilljoydammit View Post
Hmm, can't believe there's still debate on this thread. Oh wait, yes I can, because people who will never drive their cars in anger want an excuse for bling.

I still want upgraded calipers and rotors, but that's more because I like a stiffer pedal and because I want them than for any *good* reason.
Upgrading them because you want a firmer pedal than lines can give you, or because you want the look, its a completely legit reason.

Upgrading them because you added power and think that in a panic stop they will stop you any sooner, isn't


So you wanting them because you want a firmer pedal, the first thing I would tell you to do is lines and a fluid flush. Damn near every car on the road, even a lot of the new ones from a dealer, could use a good bleed.

If you can't do lines RIGHT NOW, call a buddy to come help you do a good bleed in the next couple days. You may find that your pedal gets better from just that. Which means you can enjoy a firmer (at least firmer than it is now) sooner, rather than later.

Then do lines when you get the funds.


But the biggest thing that will firm up your pedal will be fixed mount front calipers. The cheapest way to get that would be the front calipers from an 06-07 WRX. That plus lines and a good flush will give you a pedal like the STI has. (speaking from experience there)






But it wont stop you any shorter
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Old 08-17-2012, 10:52 AM   #465
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Guys also keep in mind, this whole post, mostly relates to the 99% of people who will never track their car. This means pretty much all of you.
99% of people, the only time stopping distance will come into play, is in a panic stop. Their brakes will be nowhere near the fade temperature, so the brakes will be completely capable of locking the wheels, which means the stopping distance will only be affected by how much force the tire can put on the ground before it locks. Which means, you need a stickier tire, to stop in a shorter distance.

For those rare people who WILL be tracking their car, pads and fluid are all they will ever need most likely. Some of those people would benefit from a slightly larger front rotor/caliper combo. But most definitely NOT from something huge like almost every BBK on the market. Those will only make you slower around a race track, not faster. There is a point where bigger becomes too big, and you are just adding weight and rotational mass. The BBK "Gran Turismo" kit is a perfect example of this. Its HUGE and heavy and will in no circumstance outperform the stock STI brakes. But because it is so much larger, it WILL however, suck up power, and make you handle worse.
How much worse and how much slower, well if you arent racing, then not enough to matter. So if you want the bling (and that kit DOES look insanely good), and aren't in a situation where lap times matter, go for it.



But for almost every driver on nasioc, who will never track their car, you need tires. Not brakes.
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Old 08-17-2012, 11:30 AM   #466
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow
There is a point where bigger becomes too big, and you are just adding weight and rotational mass. The BBK "Gran Turismo" kit is a perfect example of this. Its HUGE and heavy and will in no circumstance outperform the stock STI brakes. But because it is so much larger, it WILL however, suck up power, and make you handle worse.
How much worse and how much slower, well if you arent racing, then not enough to matter. So if you want the bling (and that kit DOES look insanely good), and aren't in a situation where lap times matter, go for it.
The BBK Gran Turismo is barely heavier than the STi brembos, so the weight is a moot point. The rotor will weigh a little more depending on the size (332/355) but it's not much. Suck up power??? It barely weighs more so were talking maybe .5hp. Handle worse? Not really. And yes it will outperform the stock STi brakes. It will exhibit less fade over a long session, ESPECIALLY for anyone running really wide R comps or slicks. You will also get more braking force in that scenario.

If there were no benefit to running a larger BBK, then why does nearly every time attack STi run one? Why do all of the other STi race teams run them? Because they are better.

Last edited by LIQUIDSK8S; 08-17-2012 at 01:59 PM.
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Old 08-20-2012, 12:14 PM   #467
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Originally Posted by LIQUIDSK8S View Post
The BBK Gran Turismo is barely heavier than the STi brembos, so the weight is a moot point. The rotor will weigh a little more depending on the size (332/355) but it's not much. Suck up power??? It barely weighs more so were talking maybe .5hp. Handle worse? Not really. And yes it will outperform the stock STi brakes. It will exhibit less fade over a long session, ESPECIALLY for anyone running really wide R comps or slicks. You will also get more braking force in that scenario.

If there were no benefit to running a larger BBK, then why does nearly every time attack STi run one? Why do all of the other STi race teams run them? Because they are better.



Its like you didn't read anything I had to say.


Please enlighten me as to where exactly you missed the part where I INCREDIBLY, VERY CLEARLY, IN A MANNER OF WHICH SOMEONE OF A 3RD GRADE READING LEVEL, stated, that all of this is directed at people who aren't professional type, driving a dedicated race car, sort of driver. Which is what virtually everyone on nasioc is not. Including yourself. None of what I am saying are guesses or statements coming from someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I have done this for a living and as a hobby for over 20 years here. There is also a post somewhere in this thread with the hard data from testing with lap times, proving beyond shadow of a doubt, that upgraded brakes doing exactly nothing for lap times on an autocross car(and autocross more directly relates to the sort of driving almost everyone here will ever do). As for track days, for almost everyone, pads that can take more heat and fluid are all you need even on R-compounds, unless you A. Suck at driving (and on a race track, most of us do, even if we think we dont) or B. Have a brake system that has problems to begin with (in which case, you need to REPAIR, not upgrade)
However, the reality is that only about 1% of nasioc will ever do a track day.


And the Brembo Gran Turismo kit weighs almost double the STI brembos. (ok not almost double, but a lot more) Have you held them both in your hands back to back, both on the same bench? I have. The Gran Turismo kit is INSANELY heavy.



You also clearly don't understand rotational mass. A couple lbs isnt much. A couple lbs rotating at speed, starts to become a lot more.


In any case, go re-read everything you missed. Which seems to be almost everything that has been said.


And for the record the Brembo kit on that time attack car is a lot lighter than the Gran Turismo Brembo setup. But hey, you know everything, so you already knew that right?

Last edited by Davenow; 08-20-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 08-20-2012, 12:23 PM   #468
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CopperTopNWOR View Post
You are correct in regards to the fact of how long it takes for the rotor to hit zero. But locked up tires are the rotor hitting zero. If you are just testing a wheel running without contact with the ground and without the weight of a car on top of it then this works. But once you add the weight of the car things change. There is an upper limit to how fast you are going to stop the forward momentum of the car. You can stop the rotation of the wheel, but if you stop that and their is still forward momentum all you are doing is sliding forward on the tires like ski's. The point of the post is that upgrading only makes sense from a heat standpoint if you are on the track. Otherwise brake fade isn't a concern which means the stock brakes just have to work the first time. The limiting factor then is determined by the weight of the car and the coefficient of friction between the tires and the road.


What he said. Every bit of it. Every single word of it.
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Old 08-20-2012, 01:30 PM   #469
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
Its like you didn't read anything I had to say.



Please enlighten me as to where exactly you missed the part where I INCREDIBLY, VERY CLEARLY, IN A MANNER OF WHICH SOMEONE OF A 3RD GRADE READING LEVEL, stated, that all of this is directed at people who aren't professional type, driving a dedicated race car, sort of driver. Which is what virtually everyone on nasioc is not. Including yourself. None of what I am saying are guesses or statements coming from someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. I have done this for a living and as a hobby for over 20 years here. There is also a post somewhere in this thread with the hard data from testing with lap times, proving beyond shadow of a doubt, that upgraded brakes doing exactly nothing for lap times on an autocross car(and autocross more directly relates to the sort of driving almost everyone here will ever do). As for track days, for almost everyone, pads that can take more heat and fluid are all you need even on R-compounds, unless you A. Suck at driving (and on a race track, most of us do, even if we think we dont) or B. Have a brake system that has problems to begin with (in which case, you need to REPAIR, not upgrade)
However, the reality is that only about 1% of nasioc will ever do a track day.

Wow..... where to start. I guess I'll start by commenting on your incredibly childish/immature response. It appears I'm not the one who needs to improve their reading comprehension.

Next let's move on to this comment right here

"Those will only make you slower around a race track, not faster. There is a point where bigger becomes too big, and you are just adding weight and rotational mass. The BBK "Gran Turismo" kit is a perfect example of this. Its HUGE and heavy and will in no circumstance outperform the stock STI brakes."

This is the comment I was replying to, and how it is completely false. This comment was a blanket statement, you did not preface it as being aimed at everyone but dedicated track cars. And even then, you said "in no circumstance", which is false.

You then make a assumption as to my driving, of which you have no clue. I hold a FIA Grade C license, so I know what I'm talking about. My family has been racing Porsches for over 30yrs and ranging from the 962, 908, 934.5, 944, Nissan 8803 (P Car) and the list goes on and on and on.

At what point did I mention lap times??? How about never. But since we are on the topic, with wide/sticky enough tires you will see marginally better lap times with a BBK due to extra stopping power, provided that the wider slicks have enough grip that the stock brakes cannot achieve lock up. But the stock brembos with the right pads, SHOULD be able to lockup 99% of situations, if not all.

BUT what I DID say, was that in a actual race the BBK kit would be needed as it will resist fade longer than the stock Brembos. That's a fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
And the Brembo Gran Turismo kit weighs almost double the STI brembos. (ok not almost double, but a lot more) Have you held them both in your hands back to back, both on the same bench? I have. The Gran Turismo kit is INSANELY heavy.
I've held both side by side as I have owned both. And no, it is not a lot more. From what I have read, the stock Brembos are just over 8lbs, the F50 BBK is 8.6lbs. Like I said before, barely heavier. So please quit with the exaggerations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
You also clearly don't understand rotational mass. A couple lbs isnt much. A couple lbs rotating at speed, starts to become a lot more.
Again with the baseless comments. I have a very very good understanding of rotational mass, so much so that I've spent a lot of money removing as much as possible from the car. And in terms of the calipers, they are not rotational mass, they are unsprung weight. With the rotors, a 332 will barely weigh more than the STi rotors, and compared to stock rotors they actually weigh significantly less. But let's assume that you are running a set of Girodisc rotors for the stock Brembos, while I'm running the 332mm Girodisc rotors for the F50 kit. I believe the weight difference is less than 1/2 a lb (correct me if I'm wrong). This is negligible when you factor in the benefit of heat dissipation from the extra surface area.

Car and driver did a test with a WRX a few years back, and multiple brake kits ranging from stock/stock with rotors pads/prodrive brakes/ F50 kit etc. From 70 mph the braking difference was slightly in the F50 kits favor (the largest of the group), but as the speeds increased to 100mph, the F50 kit stopped 15-20ft shorter on average. That is huge on the track. Now take the speed up to 150+...... the gap becomes even larger.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
In any case, go re-read everything you missed. Which seems to be almost everything that has been said.
I didn't miss anything, but I do suggest you take some courses on reading comprehension. Because you just failed miserably at it.

I agreed with pretty much everything in your post, apart from what I quoted. You completely missed the point of my post and ran off on some incoherent tangent that had nothing to do with my post, congrats!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
And for the record the Brembo kit on that time attack car is a lot lighter than the Gran Turismo Brembo setup. But hey, you know everything, so you already knew that right?
Really....... care to back up that claim with a source. I would be shocked if it weighs more than 1lb less than the F50 kit.

But hey, how about we mention all of the time attack cars on the forum. The LIC car? Uses the regular Brembo 6pot kit, which weighs more than the F50 kit. We could go on and on, the reality is you're wrong and cant handle it.

I gave you credit before in that your OP applies to 99% of the people on here not needing larger brakes. I was only pointing out your mistake in one specific area regarding the benefit of a BBK for the other 1%.

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Old 08-24-2012, 05:23 AM   #470
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I always thought differently, but I AM a total NEWBIE to the tuning/moidding scene. thanks for all the clarifications listed here. I appreciate the knowledge being dropped on me
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Old 08-24-2012, 04:08 PM   #471
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Completely agree with this post
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Old 08-27-2012, 02:39 PM   #472
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New to site, very impressed with good information here. Thanks.
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Old 08-27-2012, 03:59 PM   #473
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Bigger brakes won't improve stopping distance on a street car.

Bigger brakes are able to deal with heavy use on the track where normal brakes would overheat and either cause pad fade or boil fluid.

the end
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Old 09-07-2012, 07:10 PM   #474
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good thread, thanks.

also another good read, more on the subject of fade:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-fading-brakes

from this article
"Our objective here was primarily to test brake fade, not stopping distances. Assuming a brake system is properly balanced, strong enough to lock a wheel, and not yet hot enough to fade, the stopping distance is largely a function of tire traction, not brakes. Think of it this way: All brake systems, stock and aftermarket, are able to activate the ABS, so how could a stronger brake shorten a stop? Eric Dahl, a brake engineer from Brembo, put it this way: "Don't expect the brake kits to stop you sooner, but expect the 20th lap to feel like the first."
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Old 09-17-2012, 04:37 PM   #475
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Originally Posted by mikereiser View Post
good thread, thanks.

also another good read, more on the subject of fade:
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-fading-brakes

from this article
"Our objective here was primarily to test brake fade, not stopping distances. Assuming a brake system is properly balanced, strong enough to lock a wheel, and not yet hot enough to fade, the stopping distance is largely a function of tire traction, not brakes. Think of it this way: All brake systems, stock and aftermarket, are able to activate the ABS, so how could a stronger brake shorten a stop? Eric Dahl, a brake engineer from Brembo, put it this way: "Don't expect the brake kits to stop you sooner, but expect the 20th lap to feel like the first."
Exactly. Just keep in mind, this thread is written to cover the mindset of "I added 100hp now I have to upgrade the brakes or I will be driving an unsafe car" Because that mindset is thinking about panic stops. Not repeated racetrack braking situations. A car moving at say 60mph takes the same amount of force to stop if it has 1hp or 1,000,000hp. If you are worried about someone pulling out and you are doing 90 where you used to be doing 60, then you are likely just driving like an ass hole and its YOU that needs fixing not the car (Not judging anyone, we are ALL guilty of driving like a dick every now and then, myself included)
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