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Old 08-20-2012, 08:26 AM   #51
thefoos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fourmicah View Post
Do you plan on building a kit like this for the 7670 EFR?
Quote:
Originally Posted by socalLGT View Post
Not to speak for FR, but I doubt it. The B1 frame turbos are the only ones that can physically fit in stock location and as it is, clearances are tight and require very precise tolerance holding to ensure consistent fitment. With that in mind, it is highly doubtful that any B2 frame turbos (like the 7064) can be made to fit in stock location.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
Paul, you don't have to speak for Full Race... Full Race already posted in this thread that the 7163 will be the largest stock location.
I'll speak for them....As someone that tried to fit a B2 frame in the stock location, its not gonna happen. They are a tight fit rotated. I agree with FR's decision that a 7163 will be the largest stock location. I imagine putting larger wheels in the smaller frame isn't a good idea....
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Old 08-20-2012, 08:48 AM   #52
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Is there any possibility of twin scroll housings for the smaller frame turbos? Not stock-Subaru-mount twin scroll housings, obviously; it would be silly to expect something that niche. It's not a deal breaker by any means - results so far look fantastic as is - but possibly it would be nice icing on the cake.
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:23 AM   #53
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These results look great! For that power level the spool is incredible!

How would you expect the results to change if this turbo were run on a FMIC setup?
How would you expect the results to change if this turbo was run on a rotated setup?
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Old 08-20-2012, 02:39 PM   #54
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+1 twinscroll housings (I understand not OEM ones) for the smaller ones.
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Old 08-20-2012, 02:52 PM   #55
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How far off is the retail release?
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Old 08-20-2012, 03:49 PM   #56
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Good Stuff. Keep us updated? Group Buy?
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Old 08-20-2012, 04:03 PM   #57
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Certainly nice numbers but..I think there are some 1.5xtr "e85" charts that look very similar to these,maybe a bit more taper, with same type mods, Correct me if im wrong...
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Old 08-20-2012, 09:46 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freddy121389 View Post
what would you need to be done to get this turbo to work a 2011 wrx with stošk tmic location?
really not much, in fact following exactly what was done by the OP is a good idea. However a true 3" exhaust (no bottleneck like OP) should be mandatory and the option for catless downpipe (race cars or the states where it is legal) would spool faster and make more power

Quote:
Originally Posted by K1WRC View Post
Even though I'd have to change my entire turbo setup, this is still an intriguing combination that may prove more capable than any other "stock" location twinscroll turbo
thanks for the feedback. I agree this setup makes a lot of sense for people who are mostly stock or stock-ish. For those who are currently rotated it might not make as much sense unless wanting the TMIC and stealth factor. I dont know of many stock location twinscroll turbos but if youre referring to the JDM twinscroll turbos, the limiting factor imo will continue to be the odd shaped turbine wheel and housing

Quote:
Originally Posted by fourmicah View Post
Do you plan on building a kit like this for the 7670 EFR?
we'll have the 7670 EFR available in rotated single scroll OR rotated twinscroll, but it can not fit stock location

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
too bad too small for my taste.
this setup is not for everyone. If you want to make big power our rotated kits are available in singlescroll (similar to stock location just rotated) OR twinscroll - both with B2 EFR turbos. If the 7163 is too small but you want to stay stock location i will say its not possible to fit the hulking B2 here (must rotate it)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
Fullrace, any plans to make a 3-bolt up-pipe as well to fit this turbo?
no, those headers almost always crack so we will not support that platform

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUBARIFFIC View Post
Honestly I think 375-450 whp is the sweet spot for reliability for a built Subaru THAT'S GONNA LAST! So The 6758,7163, and 7064 are the turbos most of ous should be using anyway. 500-600whp in a Subie is equivalent to a EVO with almost a 1000. Entirely tooooo much stuff jst breaks on our cars
if you have a fully built subie it can handle the bigger units... but overall I agree the 6758, 7163 and 7670 will probably be the hot items for most enthusiasts on this forum

Quote:
Originally Posted by SUBARIFFIC View Post
If the 6758 is a 49lbs/min the 7163 has to be in the 50-52lbs/min range since the 7064 is a 56lbs/min
dont underestimate the 7163... this test doesn't scratch the surface, nor does perrin's. remember Paul's car is doing this thru a cat, stock tmic and 2.5" exhaust restriction (basically a stock car)


Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
These results look great! For that power level the spool is incredible! How would you expect the results to change if this turbo were run on a FMIC setup? How would you expect the results to change if this turbo was run on a rotated setup?
For stock location turbos I prefer TMIC... less piping means faster spool better torque and quicker response.

some of the available subie FMIC/charge piping kits have large diameter, long convoluted piping (spaghetti?) which can add a LOT lag and gain nil on the top end... if you are going FMIC keep the pipes as short as is possible otherwise stay TMIC!

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilt2run View Post
Certainly nice numbers but..I think there are some 1.5xtr "e85" charts that look very similar to these,maybe a bit more taper, with same type mods, Correct me if im wrong...
there might be a few dyno charts that look similar to these, this isnt bragging rights forum dynos. It is a stock motor with stock everything except for turbo and fuel system... I doubt the guys you are referring to have cats, 2.5" exh bottleneck or stock tmic. I can tell you if any of those bragging rights xtr guys tried this thing they would be there is nothing like the EFR turbos as frustrating as the wait has been I can run any turbo I want on my personal cars and ive got 2 cars down right now waiting on turbos... id rather have be waiting and get the EFR then run anything else currently

Quote:
Originally Posted by mekilljoydammit View Post
Is there any possibility of twin scroll housings for the smaller frame turbos? Not stock-Subaru-mount twin scroll housings, obviously
not sure yet, but they will have some new stuff on display at SEMA...
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Old 08-20-2012, 10:43 PM   #59
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This new BW turbo looks very promising, but it's hard for me to compare to other stock location turbo's due to the fact that you need a new uppipe and downpipe to be able to run it. If someone already has an uppipe and downpipe (as many people do who are looking to upgrade their turbo), then it is getting dangerously close to rotated territory.

If this turbo meets your power goal, and spool is your absolute primary concern (and you're willing to spend the money to get it) then this might be perfect. If budget/simplicity are your main objectives, then there seems to be similarly performing turbo's that would work with the stock up/down pipe. If you want big power, then you're probably looking rotated. This turbo kind of seems to fit into a middle ground. Maybe it will be perfect for some (or possibly many) people.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bilt2run View Post
Certainly nice numbers but..I think there are some 1.5xtr "e85" charts that look very similar to these,maybe a bit more taper, with same type mods, Correct me if im wrong...
Yeah, the TopSpeed dyno plots for the Dom1.5XTR look pretty similar. Stock motor, stock TMIC as well. The TopSpeed car had a full exhaust system though. See below (note the rpm's where the two turbo's hit 200ft-lbs, 300, 400: they are basically identical).

Quote:
Originally Posted by socalLGT View Post
Car: 2008 Subaru Impreza WRX STi
Tuner: Me, Paul Leung of YimiSport Tuning
Dyno Info: Dynojet 424X
Ambient Temp: 95*F
Elevation: about 1300' ASL
Transmission: Stock 6MT
Gear: 4th
Peak HP at RPM: 440whp @ 5900rpm (E85). 350whp @ 5900rpm (CA 91 octane)
Peak Torque at RPM: 443ft/lbs @ 3600rpm (E85). 353ft/lbs @3600rpm (CA 91 octane)
Baseline hp/tq for a stock on same dyno: 230HP/255tq - 2008 STi
Target Boost: 25 PSI (E85), 22 PSI (91 Octane)
Target AFR: 12:1 (gasoline scale on E85), 10.9:1 on 91 octane
Fuel: E85 and CA 91 octane pump gas

Mods:
- Full-Race uppipe and catted downpipe to locate a Borg Warner EFR7163 (2013 release turbo, one of only a handful that have made their way out in to the world) in stock location. Ready to bolt up to all OEM or aftermarket parts that will fit the stock turbo (inlets, TMIC's, FMIC's etc...)
- Fujitsubo Legalis R catback (with the 2.5" taper intact)
- Custom YimiSport 73mm CAI
- Custom YimiSport FPR kit
- APS turbo inlet pipe
- Grimmspeed hybrid EBCS/MBC boost control
- Deatschwerks 1000cc injectors
- Synergy 300lph fuel pump
- Cobb AP

Dyno Graphs:

Pump and E85
Quote:
Originally Posted by TopSpeed View Post
TopSpeed Motorsports 2011 STI Project Car:

Numbers
Dyno: Dyno Jet
Tuner: Douglas Wilks
Wheel HP: 377.61
Wheel TQ: 415.01
Ambient Temp: 85.47 F (23% Humidity)
Elevation: 1000ft (EST.)

Car Info
Year: 2011
Engine Management: Cobb AP
Turbo: Blouch Dom 1.5
Intercooler: Stock
Meth Kit: None
Injectors: Injected Dynamics 1000cc
Intake/Inlet: Stock Air Box/Perrin Inlet
Headers: Invidia Race Headers
Uppipe: Invidia
Downpipe: Invidia
CBE: Invidia

Here is an overlay of the Dom1.5 10cm & a 20gXT 10cm

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Old 08-20-2012, 10:54 PM   #60
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based on those charts the efr holds power out better and considering the small 2.5" exhaust its even more promising, time should tell....
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:41 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bilt2run View Post
based on those charts the efr holds power out better and considering the small 2.5" exhaust its even more promising, time should tell....
The Dom 1.5 XTR is a very fine turbo. We have installed several on customer cars and I have seen very good results from them. However, while they do spool well, they do not match the EFR7163 on the top end. Boost and airflow drops off much more than with the 7163 which held boost all the way to redline. I actually intentionally tapered off the boost a touch on my car as the stock TMIC was getting a touch heatsoaked in the 95*F temps I was tuning in.

Also consider that the Topspeed dyno graph had the STD correction factor applied versus the SAE factor on my graph. Typically the STD CF adds about 3% over SAE. The Topspeed car also had a header, which I have found typically adds roughly 10whp/20wtq over the stock exhaust manifold.

All in all, the EFR makes more power, has a broader powerband extending all the way to redline and spools the same or better.... I guess that's comparable
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Old 08-20-2012, 11:58 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socalLGT View Post
The Dom 1.5 XTR is a very fine turbo. We have installed several on customer cars and I have seen very good results from them. However, while they do spool well, they do not match the EFR7163 on the top end. Boost and airflow drops off much more than with the 7163 which held boost all the way to redline. I actually intentionally tapered off the boost a touch on my car as the stock TMIC was getting a touch heatsoaked in the 95*F temps I was tuning in.

Also consider that the Topspeed dyno graph had the STD correction factor applied versus the SAE factor on my graph. Typically the STD CF adds about 3% over SAE. The Topspeed car also had a header, which I have found typically adds roughly 10whp/20wtq over the stock exhaust manifold.

All in all, the EFR makes more power, has a broader powerband extending all the way to redline and spools the same or better.... I guess that's comparable
I think this turbo looks great. Probably better than any other stock location turbo in terms of spool vs. power. But the cost seems like a bit of a sticking point. I'm assuming this turbo will cost somewhere between $1500-1800 or so. I really have no idea, but I would guess it's in the same range as a stock location Blouch, ATP, etc.

This is fine. But then you have to consider it will probably be another $1500 or so for the downpipe and uppipe from Full Race. While I'm sure they are excellent items, it is a large cost to stomach. Especially for someone who already has an aftermarket downpipe and uppipe installed.

If you're going to pay $3000 or more, then why not just go rotated for a rotated (possibly twin scroll setup). I guess it all comes down to how much you value spool and how much top end you want. I honestly really want this powerband. I just think it would make more sense to go rotated and leave my options open. Would this turbo fit into a Full Race rotated setup and allow for easy upgrade in the future?
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:58 AM   #63
Full-Race Geoff
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
Would this turbo fit into a Full Race rotated setup and allow for easy upgrade in the future?
i can not confirm nor deny that... but I will say: Full-Race's subaru twinscroll kits will allow for easy upgrade to any twinscroll EFR currently available or will be available in the future. If the 7163 is eventually released in that config then there would be compatibility.

The LHD subaru crowd is lucky, most of our space constrained applications are not nearly as forward compatible as this platform
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:01 AM   #64
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Oh, also, do the B1 frame EFRs (or the 7163 anyway) still have the spot to put a speed sensor in? It doesn't look like the existing B1 size housings do, but then, that's looking at pictures on a web site... for that matter, is the 7163 still using the small frame housing?
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:31 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full-Race Geoff View Post
i can not confirm nor deny that... but I will say: Full-Race's subaru twinscroll kits will allow for easy upgrade to any twinscroll EFR currently available or will be available in the future. If the 7163 is eventually released in that config then there would be compatibility.
This is good to know! I really really like the spool of those EFR turbos, we'll have to see I just hope it's not 3 years from now...
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Old 08-21-2012, 11:15 AM   #66
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Hey Paul, good to see some info up on this 7163.

Any chance you can comment on the boost transition, recovery time? Not the boost threshold that you can see in a plot, but what it feels like on the road in 2nd gear at 3500 when you go WOT.

Can you really tell the difference between the lighter weight titanium exhaust wheel in drive-ability?




To Geoff:

I tried calling you a few times, but you are obviously busy. I should (finally) have a 13 STI on order, and I want to know when I can actually physically have one of these complete kits in my hands.

Also, is there any way one can have your "1.5" scroll header, and then the appropriate UP to work with the SS B1 frame EFRs?

One last question for you:

-if we have to wait a while for the 7163 to come out, what are your thoughts on the 6758? I know Perrin did the one test, but the results seem skewed due to a possible TGV issue. Is the 6758 (all things being equal) a turbo that will have a few hundred rpm better boost threshold, but 30 whp or so less potential?

I am thinking of the following for a 2013 STI:

-stock or possibly aftermarket TMIC
-94 octane E10
-your 1.5 scroll system if available
-3inch TBE, with possibly a 3.5" HFC, vs a 3" unit
-TGV delete
-some sort of intake and inlet pipe

I have been waiting forever to purchase a car wanting 400 whp and Stage 2ish response, and I even spent a fair bit of time test driving used GTRs and 911s, but I think I kinda want the practicality of a STI. Please tell me I can actually buy one of these kits soon!!!!!

plsplsplsplsplspls
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Old 08-21-2012, 12:06 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben
I think this turbo looks great. Probably better than any other stock location turbo in terms of spool vs. power. But the cost seems like a bit of a sticking point. I'm assuming this turbo will cost somewhere between $1500-1800 or so. I really have no idea, but I would guess it's in the same range as a stock location Blouch, ATP, etc.

This is fine. But then you have to consider it will probably be another $1500 or so for the downpipe and uppipe from Full Race. While I'm sure they are excellent items, it is a large cost to stomach. Especially for someone who already has an aftermarket downpipe and uppipe installed.

If you're going to pay $3000 or more, then why not just go rotated for a rotated (possibly twin scroll setup). I guess it all comes down to how much you value spool and how much top end you want. I honestly really want this powerband. I just think it would make more sense to go rotated and leave my options open. Would this turbo fit into a Full Race rotated setup and allow for easy upgrade in the future?
The Efr up pipe for the single scroll probably only 300 to 400 Max and downpipe depending catted or not should be no more that 500 most people get vband down pipes custom anyway.
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Old 08-21-2012, 03:57 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUBARIFFIC View Post
The Efr up pipe for the single scroll probably only 300 to 400 Max and downpipe depending catted or not should be no more that 500 most people get vband down pipes custom anyway.
I was just looking at these prices.

Subaru Impreza WRX/STI EJ20/25 T3 Singlescroll Up-Pipe: $448.11
http://www.full-race.com/store/turbo...up-pipe-1.html

Subaru STi 3" Downpipe: $1,025.80
http://www.full-race.com/store/downp...-downpipe.html
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Old 08-21-2012, 04:10 PM   #69
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Group buy group buy group buy ))
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Old 08-21-2012, 04:34 PM   #70
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+1 this turbo i've decided for my car.
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Old 08-21-2012, 05:25 PM   #71
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Interesting read. I think a big deciding factor on this would be cost like others have said. I don't think I would spend 3000 on that. Close to rotated territory. Ill keep looking at this to see the price point
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:33 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xluben View Post
I was just looking at these prices.

Subaru Impreza WRX/STI EJ20/25 T3 Singlescroll Up-Pipe: $448.11
http://www.full-race.com/store/turbo...up-pipe-1.html

Subaru STi 3" Downpipe: $1,025.80
http://www.full-race.com/store/downp...-downpipe.html
Thats not even an EFR Up-pipe the B1 frame is a T25 footprint and also will not have a EWG Flange since the turbo have a internal waste gate. But yea the down-pipe is pricey if its compatible and the one on this car looks nothing like the one you posted. Like I said you probably can get one custom cheaper.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:37 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SUBARIFFIC View Post
Thats not even an EFR Up-pipe the B1 frame is a T25 footprint and also will not have a EWG Flange since the turbo have a internal waste gate. But yea the down-pipe is pricey if its compatible and the one on this car looks nothing like the one you posted. Like I said you probably can get one custom cheaper.
I know they are not the actual parts in the post. I was simply using those similar parts (ie. a Subaru uppipe and a Subaru downpipe, made by Full Race) for price comparisons.
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Old 08-21-2012, 06:54 PM   #74
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That's amazing... let's see some vids! I bet it sounds like a jet! Careful with all that torque though... As cool as it is now it's gonna need an engine build soon hahaha
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:30 PM   #75
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Maybe Jeff at perrin can give us some good ole prototype EFR uppies and Downpipes he was using for his blogs since he's using that cheap ole 304 steel thats on every ebay exhaust
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