2.5RS timing belt jump a tooth?

Dave240 · 08-31-2012, 07:26 PM

Car is a 2000 2.5RS with 240,000 kms on it. Timing belt was done probably 30-40,000 kms ago. Just got back from a 7000 KM road trip with no problems then yesterday, I drove it and everything seemed fine, stopped for about 10 minutes, then went to start it and it would start but ran extremely rough, shaking the whole engine violently so I immediately shut it off. I got code P0341 which is camshaft position sensor. I checked the wiring and replaced the sensor, and restarted it again, but the problem continued and I shut it off.

I pulled the timing cover off and noticed that the crank pulley was actually wearing away the timing cover. Also the A/C belt had moved over one rib and started to rub against the timing cover. I had recently changed my PS/Alt belt and didn't notice this, so it's a fairly new problem. Picture:

One I got the timing cover off, I set the pulley on the driver side to the correct mark:

This is how the crank looked. Obviously it is off.

This is the passenger side.

So what happened? Did it just jump off a tooth or two? What would cause this to happen? Like I said, I just did a huge road trip with the car including a stint in 120F heat in Death Valley and had no problems at all. Is it possible that I didn't bend any valves being this far off the mark? What should I be replacing to ensure this doesn't happen again? Idler, tensioner?

Thanks!
Dave

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geronimo81 · 08-31-2012, 09:45 PM

That is very strange that your crank pulley was making contact with your timing belt cover. Normally I would suggest the tensioner as a problem. In any case I would check it for leaks and probably replace it no matter what. Also might be a good idea to stick a new set of idlers on while you're at it. While you're in there....do the belt too.

I would probably get the new stuff on it and timed and start it up. If you have bent valves you will know it.

Oh and just noticed you don't have the timing belt guide that goes above the crank gear. Did you take that off or was it already missing? I think you know where I'm going with this.

yarrgh · 08-31-2012, 10:55 PM

Is this an auto tranny? They don't come with the timing belt guide. timing belt slips do happen, maybe your tensioner isn't as good as it used to be. Also, spray some WD-40 on the crank pulley right at the crank to keep it rust-free. A tooth or 2 off won't bend valves.

Dave240 · 09-01-2012, 02:09 AM

Thanks for the advice guys. Good to know a few teeth off shouldn't bend valves. That will help me sleep tonight!

I actually meant to ask about that cover. I didn't realize I didn't have one until I was reading another post about replacing the belt. Is the purpose of it to prevent slips like that?

RaceTSI · 09-01-2012, 08:26 AM

Youre crank pulley damper might have gone bad and has been moving in and out to rub on the belt cover. Doesnt look like you jumped teeth since you dont have the markers lined up right?

I had a 2.2 in my wagon that actually crank walked. this is unheard of but due to massive oil leaking from every seal imaginable I'm guessing the previous owner(s) let it get too low on oil and ruined the thrust bearings or something. I have a 2.5/2.2 in it now. good luck!

RaceTSI · 09-01-2012, 08:30 AM

also, I'd replace the cover, line the pulleys up right to verify for sure your belt jumped, and go from there. the super rough running engine sounds like it could have jumped a tooth. if it was more than one tooth it would probably have bent valves and not even start.

try to wiggle the main crank pulley though or examine the rubber between it in the actual pulley. if thats all ok then that probably isnt the problem.

reason I say this is because it could be something stupid like a spark plug wire arcing or a plug thats fouled out.

yarrgh · 09-01-2012, 10:21 AM

...but the cams WERE lined up. It's the crank that wasn't. It will need to be re-timed, and I'd run a compression check just to be safe. The purpose of the timing belt covers is to prevent foreign objects from entering into the timing assembly and messing with critical components. OP, is this on a manual or auto tranny? If manual, you will need a timing belt guide for the crank pulley, set at ~ .020".

Dave240 · 09-01-2012, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaceTSI

Youre crank pulley damper might have gone bad and has been moving in and out to rub on the belt cover. Doesnt look like you jumped teeth since you dont have the markers lined up right?

The thing is I CAN'T line the pulleys up. If I get one timing mark lined up, the rest are out. I did a few rotations of the engine to see if I could get them to line up and I can't. When the timing mark is lined up on the driver side pulley, the crank pulley is ALWAYS out. What else could that mean other than I jumped a tooth?

Dave240 · 09-01-2012, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yarrgh

...but the cams WERE lined up. It's the crank that wasn't. It will need to be re-timed, and I'd run a compression check just to be safe. The purpose of the timing belt covers is to prevent foreign objects from entering into the timing assembly and messing with critical components. OP, is this on a manual or auto tranny? If manual, you will need a timing belt guide for the crank pulley, set at ~ .020".

It is a manual. Hopefully I can track a guide down.

Dave240 · 09-01-2012, 04:53 PM

Just trying to get it all re-timed properly and I'm having trouble distinguishing what the timing mark is on the passenger side cam.

So there is 'a' which is a little tab and 'b' which is kind of a seam and is just a bit of a lip more than a mark.

My instincts want to say it's 'a' but when I put the belt on (after having already set the crank and drivers side) it lines up with 'b' but I'm not sure if that is correct. The marks on the belt are all lined up with the marks on the pulleys, so does it even matter?

And here's an unobstructed view so you can see it better.

mod maniac · 09-01-2012, 05:15 PM

It is the seam. Do get the guide it helps keep this from happening. Check all your idlers if they go bad the belt will walk.

Dave240 · 09-02-2012, 06:23 PM

So I got the new belt on and all timed properly and it's running again. However I did a compression test and it's 172, 168, 172, 150. Obviously that's quite a drop in #4. Is that much of a difference drastic enough that I should be looking at rebuilding?

mod maniac · 09-02-2012, 10:17 PM

You should do a leakdown and see if it is a valve. If it is a valve you need to get it fixed soon, if it is the rings i would drive till it died.

henly · 09-03-2012, 08:29 AM

I pulled the timing cover off and noticed that the crank pulley was actually wearing away the timing cover. Also the A/C belt had moved over one rib and started to rub against the timing cover.

suzuki lift kit

08-31-2012, 07:26 PM	#1
Dave240 Scooby Newbie Member#: 135069 Join Date: Dec 2006	2.5RS timing belt jump a tooth? Car is a 2000 2.5RS with 240,000 kms on it. Timing belt was done probably 30-40,000 kms ago. Just got back from a 7000 KM road trip with no problems then yesterday, I drove it and everything seemed fine, stopped for about 10 minutes, then went to start it and it would start but ran extremely rough, shaking the whole engine violently so I immediately shut it off. I got code P0341 which is camshaft position sensor. I checked the wiring and replaced the sensor, and restarted it again, but the problem continued and I shut it off. I pulled the timing cover off and noticed that the crank pulley was actually wearing away the timing cover. Also the A/C belt had moved over one rib and started to rub against the timing cover. I had recently changed my PS/Alt belt and didn't notice this, so it's a fairly new problem. Picture: One I got the timing cover off, I set the pulley on the driver side to the correct mark: This is how the crank looked. Obviously it is off. This is the passenger side. So what happened? Did it just jump off a tooth or two? What would cause this to happen? Like I said, I just did a huge road trip with the car including a stint in 120F heat in Death Valley and had no problems at all. Is it possible that I didn't bend any valves being this far off the mark? What should I be replacing to ensure this doesn't happen again? Idler, tensioner? Thanks! Dave * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

09-03-2012, 08:29 AM	#14
henly Scooby Newbie Member#: 331026 Join Date: Sep 2012	I pulled the timing cover off and noticed that the crank pulley was actually wearing away the timing cover. Also the A/C belt had moved over one rib and started to rub against the timing cover. suzuki lift kit Last edited by henly; 09-08-2012 at 02:47 AM.

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08-31-2012, 09:45 PM	#2
geronimo81 Scooby Newbie Member#: 154586 Join Date: Jul 2007 Chapter/Region: BAIC Location: San Ramon Vehicle: 1996 ej22 Outback White	That is very strange that your crank pulley was making contact with your timing belt cover. Normally I would suggest the tensioner as a problem. In any case I would check it for leaks and probably replace it no matter what. Also might be a good idea to stick a new set of idlers on while you're at it. While you're in there....do the belt too. I would probably get the new stuff on it and timed and start it up. If you have bent valves you will know it. Oh and just noticed you don't have the timing belt guide that goes above the crank gear. Did you take that off or was it already missing? I think you know where I'm going with this.

08-31-2012, 10:55 PM	#3
yarrgh Scooby Specialist Member#: 80465 Join Date: Jan 2005 Chapter/Region: RMIC Location: Aurora, CO Vehicle: 2001 2.5RS Black Diamond Pearl	Is this an auto tranny? They don't come with the timing belt guide. timing belt slips do happen, maybe your tensioner isn't as good as it used to be. Also, spray some WD-40 on the crank pulley right at the crank to keep it rust-free. A tooth or 2 off won't bend valves.

09-01-2012, 02:09 AM	#4
Dave240 Scooby Newbie Member#: 135069 Join Date: Dec 2006	Thanks for the advice guys. Good to know a few teeth off shouldn't bend valves. That will help me sleep tonight! I actually meant to ask about that cover. I didn't realize I didn't have one until I was reading another post about replacing the belt. Is the purpose of it to prevent slips like that?

09-01-2012, 08:26 AM	#5
RaceTSI Scooby Newbie Member#: 330860 Join Date: Sep 2012	Youre crank pulley damper might have gone bad and has been moving in and out to rub on the belt cover. Doesnt look like you jumped teeth since you dont have the markers lined up right? I had a 2.2 in my wagon that actually crank walked. this is unheard of but due to massive oil leaking from every seal imaginable I'm guessing the previous owner(s) let it get too low on oil and ruined the thrust bearings or something. I have a 2.5/2.2 in it now. good luck!

09-01-2012, 08:30 AM	#6
RaceTSI Scooby Newbie Member#: 330860 Join Date: Sep 2012	also, I'd replace the cover, line the pulleys up right to verify for sure your belt jumped, and go from there. the super rough running engine sounds like it could have jumped a tooth. if it was more than one tooth it would probably have bent valves and not even start. try to wiggle the main crank pulley though or examine the rubber between it in the actual pulley. if thats all ok then that probably isnt the problem. reason I say this is because it could be something stupid like a spark plug wire arcing or a plug thats fouled out.

09-01-2012, 10:21 AM	#7
yarrgh Scooby Specialist Member#: 80465 Join Date: Jan 2005 Chapter/Region: RMIC Location: Aurora, CO Vehicle: 2001 2.5RS Black Diamond Pearl	...but the cams WERE lined up. It's the crank that wasn't. It will need to be re-timed, and I'd run a compression check just to be safe. The purpose of the timing belt covers is to prevent foreign objects from entering into the timing assembly and messing with critical components. OP, is this on a manual or auto tranny? If manual, you will need a timing belt guide for the crank pulley, set at ~ .020".

09-01-2012, 04:53 PM	#10
Dave240 Scooby Newbie Member#: 135069 Join Date: Dec 2006	Just trying to get it all re-timed properly and I'm having trouble distinguishing what the timing mark is on the passenger side cam. So there is 'a' which is a little tab and 'b' which is kind of a seam and is just a bit of a lip more than a mark. My instincts want to say it's 'a' but when I put the belt on (after having already set the crank and drivers side) it lines up with 'b' but I'm not sure if that is correct. The marks on the belt are all lined up with the marks on the pulleys, so does it even matter? And here's an unobstructed view so you can see it better.

09-01-2012, 05:15 PM	#11
mod maniac NASIOC Supporter Member#: 300551 Join Date: Nov 2011 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: mariposa ca. Vehicle: 2002 DD wgn 6 spd 2.1 kel 272's meth 2.5xtr	It is the seam. Do get the guide it helps keep this from happening. Check all your idlers if they go bad the belt will walk.

09-02-2012, 06:23 PM	#12
Dave240 Scooby Newbie Member#: 135069 Join Date: Dec 2006	So I got the new belt on and all timed properly and it's running again. However I did a compression test and it's 172, 168, 172, 150. Obviously that's quite a drop in #4. Is that much of a difference drastic enough that I should be looking at rebuilding?

09-02-2012, 10:17 PM	#13
mod maniac NASIOC Supporter Member#: 300551 Join Date: Nov 2011 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: mariposa ca. Vehicle: 2002 DD wgn 6 spd 2.1 kel 272's meth 2.5xtr	You should do a leakdown and see if it is a valve. If it is a valve you need to get it fixed soon, if it is the rings i would drive till it died.