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Old 09-02-2012, 09:06 AM   #2151
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Originally Posted by dexterous
So I guess the next logical question to ask is, has anybody ever cracked a JDM TS header?
Probably somewhere at some point in time over the past 10 or so years the ts header has been around. Everything breaks
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Old 09-02-2012, 10:50 AM   #2152
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So I guess the next logical question to ask is, has anybody ever cracked a JDM TS header?
From what I've seen aftermarket TS setups crack can crack too and there are plenty of pics/threads out there on the subject. I would assume the same is true for the OEM piece. Heck if the OEM cast ones can crack I wouldn't be in the least suprised by an OEM tubing (TS) setup cracking too. Maybe not?

I've not had much personal experience with OEM twinscroll setups, but I can shoot an email to a few european contacts I know that run, or used to run OEM TS setups. I don't know if many are running larger turbos or stock, it really depends on the class they run. I do know most ditch the OEM TS setup after they crap out, to go single scroll. On track the TS/SS difference is not worth the cost increase and difficulty in finding parts/spares.

IMO, your best bet for OEM TS longevity (or any header for that matter) is to make sure you use the OEM turbo brackets to keep things from vibrating too much. I've never seen an aftermarket bracket(s) setup that matches the heft of the OEM pieces
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Old 09-02-2012, 01:53 PM   #2153
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watch this and skip from middle to end and see how much the whole assembly expends from heat! Oem system has built in flex join in the uppipe for that expansion matter! When you have no flexes in system bolting up stuff to brackets bad in my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
From what I've seen aftermarket TS setups crack can crack too and there are plenty of pics/threads out there on the subject. I would assume the same is true for the OEM piece. Heck if the OEM cast ones can crack I wouldn't be in the least suprised by an OEM tubing (TS) setup cracking too. Maybe not?

I've not had much personal experience with OEM twinscroll setups, but I can shoot an email to a few european contacts I know that run, or used to run OEM TS setups. I don't know if many are running larger turbos or stock, it really depends on the class they run. I do know most ditch the OEM TS setup after they crap out, to go single scroll. On track the TS/SS difference is not worth the cost increase and difficulty in finding parts/spares.

IMO, your best bet for OEM TS longevity (or any header for that matter) is to make sure you use the OEM turbo brackets to keep things from vibrating too much. I've never seen an aftermarket bracket(s) setup that matches the heft of the OEM pieces
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Old 09-02-2012, 03:00 PM   #2154
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Old 09-02-2012, 04:45 PM   #2155
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Oem system has built in flex join in the uppipe for that expansion matter! When you have no flexes in system bolting up stuff to brackets bad in my opinion.
Not as hot as this one



Regardless, having a flex section is needed, or not needed, as part of the design if expansion forces require it. This would be because of the materials being used and/or the design layout may place a large amount of stress into a certain area/section of the system. If the engineer was doing thier job they can tell you why it needs one, IE; what direction and how much the system and area of the system are moving, and what direction the forces are pushing/pulling. If anyone ever tells you it needs one for the 'thermal expansion' and doesn't know the what/where/why don't buy thier products!

As far as the brackets go, you have a huge canalevered load (especially with a bigger turbo setup) hanging off the head studs that are many feet away. The load and vibration just from drving on track (not including engine accel, decel, shifting, etc.) gets amplified tremendously without the end of that cantalevered load (turbo) bolted down. So pick your poison... substancially greater vibration beating the header and studs, or, the relatively fractional amount the exhaust expands from heat. Seems the expansion is the much safer and lower load vs multi-g lateral forces having thier way with everything, but what do I know

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Old 09-02-2012, 10:08 PM   #2156
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Not as hot as this one



Regardless, having a flex section is needed, or not needed, as part of the design if expansion forces require it. This would be because of the materials being used and/or the design layout may place a large amount of stress into a certain area/section of the system. If the engineer was doing thier job they can tell you why it needs one, IE; what direction and how much the system and area of the system are moving, and what direction the forces are pushing/pulling. If anyone ever tells you it needs one for the 'thermal expansion' and doesn't know the what/where/why don't buy thier products!

As far as the brackets go, you have a huge canalevered load (especially with a bigger turbo setup) hanging off the head studs that are many feet away. The load and vibration just from drving on track (not including engine accel, decel, shifting, etc.) gets amplified tremendously without the end of that cantalevered load (turbo) bolted down. So pick your poison... substancially greater vibration beating the header and studs, or, the relatively fractional amount the exhaust expands from heat. Seems the expansion is the much safer and lower load vs multi-g lateral forces having thier way with everything, but what do I know
Do you have roateted uppipe for you header?
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Old 09-02-2012, 11:42 PM   #2157
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Funny, I have actually posted that exact picture in this thread before. I really hope that the header and up-pipe pictured are 321... Either way, thats a really cool (hot) picture. In 2010 (my last real track season) my car would regularly see 2000F EGTs on the track so things get pretty hot.
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:15 AM   #2158
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Originally Posted by Bariga View Post
Cosworth Subaru Borg Warner EFR Turbo Test - YouTube

watch this and skip from middle to end and see how much the whole assembly expends from heat! Oem system has built in flex join in the uppipe for that expansion matter! When you have no flexes in system bolting up stuff to brackets bad in my opinion.
Amazing video. You can really see the difference between 1:30 and 2:30

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Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
As far as the brackets go, you have a huge canalevered load (especially with a bigger turbo setup) hanging off the head studs that are many feet away. The load and vibration just from drving on track (not including engine accel, decel, shifting, etc.) gets amplified tremendously without the end of that cantalevered load (turbo) bolted down. So pick your poison... substancially greater vibration beating the header and studs, or, the relatively fractional amount the exhaust expands from heat. Seems the expansion is the much safer and lower load vs multi-g lateral forces having thier way with everything, but what do I know
Maybe your definition of 'fractional' is different than mine. In the above video that Bariga posted, at 1:30 vs 2:30, I don't know how anyone could describe that movement as 'fractional'.

And also, no one is arguing against the use of brackets, I hope. Brackets are absolutely key if you have so much mass on the other end of a torque arm. But what that video shows is the need for the ability of an exhaust system to not undergo an increase in internal stress due to thermal expansion. So the way I see it, there are 3 options :
1. Rigid brackets, 'non-flex' exhaust pipes - imo, this will eventually crack
2. no brackets, 'non-flex' exhaust pipes - imo, this will eventually crack depending on how much localize stress the pipes see due to mass at the other end of a torque arm.
3. rigid brackets, 'flex' exhaust pipe - imo, this solves both types of failure modes. Just don't put the flex section in the middle of a bend! Fluids tend to heat up when they have to change direction.
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Old 09-03-2012, 12:43 AM   #2159
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full-race never used brackets even on big ass 42R turbos!
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Old 09-03-2012, 01:15 AM   #2160
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Drag racing cars that see no lateral forces don't need turbo brackets...
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:40 AM   #2161
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:28 AM   #2162
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Do you have roateted uppipe for you header?
No... not... yet...

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Originally Posted by MRF582 View Post
So the way I see it, there are 3 options :
1. Rigid brackets, 'non-flex' exhaust pipes - imo, this will eventually crack
2. no brackets, 'non-flex' exhaust pipes - imo, this will eventually crack depending on how much localize stress the pipes see due to mass at the other end of a torque arm.
3. rigid brackets, 'flex' exhaust pipe - imo, this solves both types of failure modes. Just don't put the flex section in the middle of a bend! Fluids tend to heat up when they have to change direction.
You missed the main point of my post. For the majority of JDM knock-off headers (F-R, GT-Spec, etc....) this is not a bad theory.

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Regardless, having a flex section is needed, or not needed, as part of the design if expansion forces require it.
Metals expand when heated, we all know this. In any bolted section, how that stress is delt with, by its design, will deteming if the stresses are within the capabilities of the material or if fatigue will have it's way. A design that concentrates stress in an area will fail LONG before a design that distributes stress evenly across it. Now-a-days this is a simple calculation using simulation software, and MUCH faster than calculating the data manually (thank god!).

So again, I come back to a flex section should be used if it's needed statement. Using one in an assembly that doesn't need it is only adding another failure point the the assembly. I've seen data from certain setups, and that video shows exactly what THAT design does. Longer tube setups (think GPMoto) typically don't crack because the stress is spread over a MUCH larger area so the stress is minimal in any one spot. For our particular setup, it's fairly easy to visualize the growth of the tubes because of the symmetrical geometry. Collector moves forward a small amount and the up-pipe section pushes forward/down, and because it's a single tube secondary you don't have 2 tubes right next to each other pushing/pulling on each other. The stress is very evenly distributed along a long section of tube. Forces are well below the level where a flex section would be needed, as was determined when the product was designed.

For the super technogeeks sorry for being vague, shoot me a PM if you want more detail/info. I don't think this thread is a good place for a dissertation on statics under thermal stress.

Dex, sorry for the slight hijack
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Old 09-03-2012, 10:56 AM   #2163
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Dont be sorry man, I am very interested in this. Based on whats been said here, I am guessing that the factory JDM header's high quality flex sections are the reason why I cant find a single person complaining that their JDM header cracked. At some point I will most likely move to a new Moore 321 header but thats a few years off.
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Old 09-03-2012, 01:08 PM   #2164
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Rigid mounts/pipes coupled with thermal expansion result in an increase in internal stresses. That is a fact. I prefer to minimize internal stresses.
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Old 09-03-2012, 02:13 PM   #2165
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Lol at Dex interested in tube expansion.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:02 PM   #2166
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Rigid mounts/pipes coupled with thermal expansion result in an increase in internal stresses. That is a fact. I prefer to minimize internal stresses.
As much as vibrating a 20 pound turbochanger at the end of a 5+ foot lever arm at 'X' g's of lateral force? You run the numbers and you'll find that dangling turbo is more abusive.

Mount a header/up-pipe from the head only, grab onto the turbo flange and you can easily flex it with your hand. That's not a lot of force compared to what the materials can withstand. The motion in that Cosworth video to move that setup, isn't a lot and easily done by hand. These headers aren't a bar bolted on both ends that would see tremendous forces from themal expansion. The geometry spreads that force over a larger area, all well below the material's capabilities.

Dex is talking about 321, which is prefered for a track car anyway. It's got a bit lower thermal expansion and higher strength at temperature. Personally, I like the thinner walled 321 (vs. heavy walled like you'd see in the pretrolium industry) because it allows the tubing to flex vs trying to rip itself apart, but again, it all comes down to the specific application and design, design, design.
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Old 09-03-2012, 05:04 PM   #2167
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Rigid mounts/pipes coupled with thermal expansion result in an increase in internal stresses. That is a fact. I prefer to minimize internal stresses.
I'd rather deal with a few pounds of internal stress from thermal expansion than the external stress of 15 lbs of turbo bouncing around on a multi-foot lever arm.
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Old 09-03-2012, 09:50 PM   #2168
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I don't know why you guys are posting as if I'm advocating not using brackets. Did you read my entire post? Please read the following statements in bold. I'm saying to use brackets and flex sections. Not one or the other, but BOTH!

Has anyone actually done the internal stress calculations for a 4-5 feet long piece of pipe that is heated up enough to expand as much as the pipes in that video? If not you can get in the ball park by visualizing the following. Internal stress increase due to thermal expansion for a rigidly mounted piece of metal is about equal to the tensile stress needed to stretch the same piece of metal the same amount as would be caused by thermal expansion if it weren't rigidly mounted.

Ergo, I'd like to see where jsquared got that 'few pounds of internal stress' number from.


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Dex is talking about 321, which is prefered for a track car anyway. It's got a bit lower thermal expansion and higher strength at temperature.
Have you even looked at the datasheets for 304 vs 321? 321 most definitely does NOT have 'a bit lower thermal expansion'. It's quite the opposite!
10.4 in/in/F vs 10.7 in/in/F in the range of 0F to 1200F. The hotter it gets the more the expansion rate increases. It's not perfectly linear throughout the temp range.
http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_p...Data_Sheet.pdf
http://www.aksteel.com/pdf/markets_p...Data_Sheet.pdf

Maybe it's time you revisit your design, design, design calculations...

Last edited by MRF582; 09-03-2012 at 10:42 PM.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:04 AM   #2169
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You're right, I looked quickly at the expansion data quickly. Heck it's been 3 years since I designed our headers! To ~600 321 has a lower rate, after that 321 does. Either way, the 'bit lower' amount is negligible given the geometry. Did you notice the thermal properties for 304 don't go as high as 321 or offer the same strength at temperature? This is the whole point for using 321 as an exhaust component.

Just because both ends are hard mounted does not make them rigid in the sense that they are not given freedom to move. A Subaru header is a convoluted 'U' shape and between flanges the system can move quite a bit without any significant concentration of force. Force concentrations are what make things in shear break, and there are no such concentrations on most setups. 304 cracks due to precipitation hardening from HEAT. They become brittle over time and this is why they fail. As do flex sections. If it's a cracked tube/weld or a failed flex section, it's still a failed part.

Our design has a single long secondary unlike an others out there. The single tube is allowed to flex over nearly it's entire length and is not subject to near as much thermal expansion forces as a setup with dual secondaries, where the tubes push/pull against each other.

Personally, I enjoy coarse personality of Carroll Smith (Engineer to Win) and his take on 321. I highly recommend all his books for anyone who takes building cars seriously!

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Old 09-04-2012, 10:14 AM   #2170
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You're right, I looked quickly at the expansion data quickly. Heck it's been 3 years since I designed our headers! To ~600 321 has a lower rate, after that 321 does. Either way, the 'bit lower' amount is negligible given the geometry. Did you notice the thermal properties for 304 don't go as high as 321 or offer the same strength at temperature? This is the whole point for using 321 as an exhaust component.

Just because both ends are hard mounted does not make them rigid in the sense that they are not given freedom to move. A Subaru header is a convoluted 'U' shape and between flanges the system can move quite a bit without any significant concentration of force. Force concentrations are what make things in shear break, and there are no such concentrations on most setups. 304 cracks due to precipitation hardening from HEAT. They become brittle over time and this is why they fail. As do flex sections. If it's a cracked tube/weld or a failed flex section, it's still a failed part.
I have known about 321's superior strength at high temp for quite some time now, yes.

I would like to see 3D modeling of the following two designs before I believe your statement in bold.
1. A straight stainless pipe rigidly mounted at both ends.
2. The same pipe bent into a 90 and rigidly mounted at both ends.
Then simulate thermal expansion, and see where the internal stresses are greatest. I'll bet on the stress concentrating on the inside of the 90 degree bend in pipe # 2 and the peak stress in pipe # 2 will be higher than any point in pipe # 1.

PS - Maybe add a third pipe in there which is a pipe of the same length mandrel bent into a U and rigidly mounted at both ends.
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:52 AM   #2171
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^ A simple simulation/calculation like that would show you exactly what you're fishing for, but 2 or 3 bends is an over simplification. Add bends and the stress points get distributed as expected. The problem is the stress concentrations depend on the bend radii, and something you're not giving any consideration to is 'real world factors'. The inside of the bend is thicker than the outside, plus heat will be higher in the outside of the bend, which throws a big fat wrench in the works

EDIT: there are no significant concentrations on most setups

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Old 09-04-2012, 11:43 AM   #2172
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^ A simple simulation/calculation like that would show you exactly what you're fishing for, but 2 or 3 bends is an over simplification. Add bends and the stress points get distributed as expected. The problem is the stress concentrations depend on the bend radii, and something you're not giving any consideration to is 'real world factors'. The inside of the bend is thicker than the outside, plus heat will be higher in the outside of the bend, which throws a big fat wrench in the works

EDIT: there are no significant concentrations on most setups
Those are two very good points: metal thinner on outside radii and temperature being higher on the oustside. But, if talking about steady state, then the temperature distribution is the same between inside and outside radii.

I guess what we need is to get 3D models of bends that account for the material thickness discrepancies between inside and outside radii, then use CFD to generate a temperature distribution map over the entire part, then do piecewise FEA to calculate internal stresses... Phew, anyone got any friends at F1?

Or should we just over-engineer it and use brackets and flex sections like the OEM design? :P
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:07 PM   #2173
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I guess what we need is to get 3D models of bends that account for the material thickness discrepancies between inside and outside radii, then use CFD to generate a temperature distribution map over the entire part, then do piecewise FEA to calculate internal stresses... Phew, anyone got any friends at F1?
This is something we've done... with our setup. We know exactly where our products is weakest, and if one ever breaks so will everyone else

For anyone considering making a header I HIGLY recommend having done or contracting these services! I like to think I've got a pretty good background as an ME, but talk to the guys who make headers for nascar, indy, etc, and you will learn loads because it's ALL they do ALL day long. Again, I can't recommend this enough!
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Old 09-04-2012, 10:50 PM   #2174
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Back when I started this thread I had no idea that two years and nearly 2200 posts later it would still be going strong. What a ride! Its also nice to be talking about header designs and materials selection verses failed motors and stuff. Its a nice improvement form this time last year.
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Old 09-12-2012, 01:27 PM   #2175
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Back when I started this thread I had no idea that two years and nearly 2200 posts later it would still be going strong. What a ride! Its also nice to be talking about header designs and materials selection verses failed motors and stuff. Its a nice improvement form this time last year.
here here!

So what's next, Tom?
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