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Old 09-07-2012, 12:58 AM   #26
Dipp
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Originally Posted by Spike_916 View Post
This is seriously an awesome setup. I believe this question has been raised, how big of a turbo can you fit within this location and what about twin scroll?
I've been running this type of setup for years now, I'm not sure about the GD chassis but I fit an S374 twin scoll w/ 1.10 A/R in my GM/GC body with minimal cutting of the body.
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:24 AM   #27
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Ill have to talk to you guys more about your scavenge pump setup. Im doing a low mount turbo in my drag wagon, and Ive got a bunch of room to play with up front since I moved the engine back.

I want to put a turbo on there that is in the 80-90lb/min range

Good move on going SD! I dont use COBB at all here, but SD is so much better than MAF even on normal cars.

Wicked M@
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Old 09-07-2012, 01:34 AM   #28
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nice work guys!
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:06 AM   #29
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Way to go - like it
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:22 AM   #30
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i still don't understand what the actual advantage of this is?
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:29 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by vicious_fishes View Post
i still don't understand what the actual advantage of this is?
From what I can see, the exhaust manifold is shorter. Shorter distance between the exhaust port and the turbine means better response. This setup also makes for much shorter IC piping; shorter distance from the turbo outlet to the throttle body means better response. The intake is extremely short and also gets cold air; shorter pipe means less pressure drop before the compressor which reduces the pressure ratio you have to run to get the same absolute pressure in the intake manifold. Less pressure ratio/less boost means the air comes out of the turbo cooler leading to more power and also quicker response. Colder intake air also means quicker response and more power. The exhaust flow path out of the turbine housing is nice and straight followed by big gentle bends. This should have much less flow resistance compared to a stock location turbo with a much sharper 90 degree turn right after the turbine housing which increases back pressure and hurts power.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:08 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Bariga View Post
and EFR not available in v-band!

Killer-B Thank you for developing products for our cars!
Correct and no problem!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wicked Innovation View Post
Ill have to talk to you guys more about your scavenge pump setup. Im doing a low mount turbo in my drag wagon, and Ive got a bunch of room to play with up front since I moved the engine back.

I want to put a turbo on there that is in the 80-90lb/min range

Good move on going SD! I dont use COBB at all here, but SD is so much better than MAF even on normal cars.

Wicked M@
Definitely, you know how where to find me.

Yeah that's a big turbo, should make a great drag car!

Still using Cobb, but the new SD feature is well worth it! I'm no tuner, but since running SD I have fewer, or no, complaints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lil'redwagon View Post
nice work guys!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kastley85891 View Post
Way to go - like it
Thanks guys! Apreciate the kind words!

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Originally Posted by vicious_fishes View Post
i still don't understand what the actual advantage of this is?
What this guys says...

Quote:
Originally Posted by spdracerut View Post
From what I can see, the exhaust manifold is shorter. Shorter distance between the exhaust port and the turbine means better response. This setup also makes for much shorter IC piping; shorter distance from the turbo outlet to the throttle body means better response. The intake is extremely short and also gets cold air; shorter pipe means less pressure drop before the compressor which reduces the pressure ratio you have to run to get the same absolute pressure in the intake manifold. Less pressure ratio/less boost means the air comes out of the turbo cooler leading to more power and also quicker response. Colder intake air also means quicker response and more power. The exhaust flow path out of the turbine housing is nice and straight followed by big gentle bends. This should have much less flow resistance compared to a stock location turbo with a much sharper 90 degree turn right after the turbine housing which increases back pressure and hurts power.
Just to add to this...

Correct, the manifold is shorter. Centerline distance has been reduced a hair over 26 inches, which is a lot. This is a generalization but, generally, a change on the exhaust side (pre-turbo) is equivalent to that change X2 on the compressor side. So removing 1" of pressurized volume is like removing 2" on intercooler tubing. Less volume means the manifold become pressurized faster and in turn spin the turbine. That coupled with us using our current Holy Header design that already reduces pre-turbo volume significantly makes for a massive difference in pre-turbo volume vs a typical EL setup or a rotated setup. This is one of the reasons the EVO will get better turbocharger performance with a similarly sized turbo. There are also ~180 fewer bends vs a turbo up high reducing turbulence and increasing flow performance.

At first I didn't think going stright in/out of the turbine would have that significant an effect. When I started showing sketches to Garrett they REALLY liked the straight in/out and felt this would be a significant advantage over the typical Suby design (OEM or rotated) that takes a sharp 90 bend immediately upon exiting the turbine housing.

On the cold side, compared to 'traditional' FMIC setups, there is a HUGE volume reduction. Again it comes back to being able to build boost faster because there is less space to fill. Having MANY fewer bends doesn't hurt either I had originally wanted to do a rotated intake manifold as well, but after some calulations, the gains were not significant vs my desire to keep A/C and one thing I really don't like about rotated manifolds is that it cooks the intercooler tubing since it's right behind a 180-200 radiator. I had concerns on how this would effect intake temps and most importantly the MAF accuracy.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:31 AM   #33
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Doing all that work and not front facing the inlet/intake has me scratching my head.

Carmi aka soon2bblackongold
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:52 AM   #34
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Doing all that work and not front facing the inlet/intake has me scratching my head.

Carmi aka soon2bblackongold
Can you elaborate?
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:53 AM   #35
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I have limited access to thread pictures from work, was able to see the 2 dyno sheets.
Is it correct to say that you got to 24 PSI by around 3900-4000 RPM?
Was this 4th gear with intake temperature over 70F?

There could be additional spool advantages with reversing the manifold, but that would complicate the turn-key side of this package and I know that reliabillity is a main goal with KB, so I think they made the right choice keeping it the way it is.

Personally, I'd like to see a smaller turbo with a quicker spool as an option here (something good for 320 WHP, fully spooled by 3300 RPM), but it's a nice option as it is.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:55 AM   #36
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Can you elaborate?
Pushing the turbo a little more forward and or to thr right, so it has a direct airflow from the grill/bumper/foglight, so no need for an intake, just a filter for bad weather/dust/rocks.
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:18 AM   #37
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is that small radiator really up to cooling a heavy use car??
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:29 AM   #38
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soon2bblackongold, that would be pretty nice to have

just a screen, no elbow, or barely a filter,
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Old 09-07-2012, 10:55 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Vlad View Post
I have limited access to thread pictures from work, was able to see the 2 dyno sheets.
Is it correct to say that you got to 24 PSI by around 3900-4000 RPM?
Was this 4th gear with intake temperature over 70F?

There could be additional spool advantages with reversing the manifold, but that would complicate the turn-key side of this package and I know that reliabillity is a main goal with KB, so I think they made the right choice keeping it the way it is.

Personally, I'd like to see a smaller turbo with a quicker spool as an option here (something good for 320 WHP, fully spooled by 3300 RPM), but it's a nice option as it is.
Vlad, you are seeing it correctly. I just pulled the historical weather data for Bristol, CT. We were there in the middle of the day as you can see by the time-stamp on the plot. Temps were at or near the max temp of 75 that was reached that day and it was pretty sticky. The forecast agrees with humidity at 87%. The pulls were in 4th gear. I tell people the plots do not do the setup justice because on the street we see full boost even sooner. One of these days I'll get off my butt and get some vids with log file.

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Originally Posted by CatfaceType-R View Post
Pushing the turbo a little more forward and or to thr right, so it has a direct airflow from the grill/bumper/foglight, so no need for an intake, just a filter for bad weather/dust/rocks.
Trust me when I tell you there is zero room to move this turbo in any direction. Chassis, radiator, timing cover, header primaries and subframe support gives you ONE spot and no room for error. It took months to get this sorted out so it was a 'bolt-on' affair. We also drive these cars ALL the time. Rain, shine, pavement, dirt, dropping my kids off at school, blasting up a mtn road or a weekend auto-X. Having one solution that fits ALL is what I'm all about which means there MUST be a filter. Run some calculations on how much a filter effect flow (size, type, location, etc...) and you'll see if it's done right the gains aren't worth a pebble taking out your ride.

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Originally Posted by shooting View Post
is that small radiator really up to cooling a heavy use car??
Yes. Volume wise it is OEM-ish. This particular setup should be good for just over 500whp and with a 'money is no object' fan/shroud setup it should be good for ~600whp. So far temps stay right in line. The core is a very efficient design, and certainly not anything like the cheapo rads that people buy like drunken sailors. Just to give you an idea, I'd need to sell the radiator alone for $650+ to make any money.

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Originally Posted by Irv Weissmanhowerton View Post
soon2bblackongold, that would be pretty nice to have

just a screen, no elbow, or barely a filter,
There is way more flow capacity, with that filter/elbow setup, than that turbo will ever need. I don't see it as a choke point. We'll see if things change with the GTX3576-R, but I'd be really surpised if it did.
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Old 09-07-2012, 11:18 AM   #40
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soon2bblackongold, that would be pretty nice to have

just a screen, no elbow, or barely a filter,
It definitely costs you power, that was proven a while ago.

As this is more of a street car, I understand why kb is saying what it's saying. BUT, there are some cars running front facing turbo kits on multiple platforms, doing daily driving. There is room (with moving stuff around, though), it's hard to do, and 10x harder on a street car. Kb is a company, and selling one off kits, when people have such different setups, makes zero sense, so again, I understand. My comment was based on the fact that so much work was done already. This mounting for subies is still in it's infancy.(not for fobia though, he was ahead of the game with that fog light kit)

+1 for kb for making this kit, it's undoubtedly better than a rotated mount and the oem low mount. Look's beefy, too.

Last edited by CatfaceType-R; 09-07-2012 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:13 PM   #41
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So as far as the pipes go, is this kit meant to mount up to any off the shelf Suby turbo with regards to the flanges on the header/downpipe? If so, stock location or rotated turbos? And if it was designed to use garret turbos, then the derivatives should work too, like ATP, Blouch, FP, etc, right?
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Old 09-07-2012, 12:35 PM   #42
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It definitely costs you power, that was proven a while ago.

As this is more of a street car, I understand why kb is saying what it's saying. BUT, there are some cars running front facing turbo kits on multiple platforms, doing daily driving. There is room (with moving stuff around, though), it's hard to do, and 10x harder on a street car. Kb is a company, and selling one off kits, when people have such different setups, makes zero sense, so again, I understand. My comment was based on the fact that so much work was done already. This mounting for subies is still in it's infancy.(not for fobia though, he was ahead of the game with that fog light kit)

+1 for kb for making this kit, it's undoubtedly better than a rotated mount and the oem low mount. Look's beefy, too.
The nice part is we would not be including inlet hose or filter, so you could run whatever you wanted.

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Originally Posted by lil'redwagon View Post
So as far as the pipes go, is this kit meant to mount up to any off the shelf Suby turbo with regards to the flanges on the header/downpipe? If so, stock location or rotated turbos? And if it was designed to use garret turbos, then the derivatives should work too, like ATP, Blouch, FP, etc, right?
This kit is designed to work with Garrett Turbos using a Tial v-band 30/35 Turbine housing, with our modified compressor housing. No other turbine housings will work.
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Old 09-07-2012, 02:42 PM   #43
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Nice work as always, I like the way you built it around the straight in straight out theory. I'd just re-locate the oil filter. Maybe design a v-mount style kit also that would be sick!
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Old 09-07-2012, 03:02 PM   #44
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enough said
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Old 09-07-2012, 04:13 PM   #45
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Nice work as always, I like the way you built it around the straight in straight out theory. I'd just re-locate the oil filter. Maybe design a v-mount style kit also that would be sick!
We thought about v-mount, but to properly do it would require a lot of fabrication and costs start going up fast. I would do it like the WRC setups and you can see how complex they get and the fabrication involved. Definitely not andwhere near bolt-on.

You mean relocate it like this...



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enough said
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Old 09-07-2012, 06:47 PM   #46
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Do you guys feel the turbo is vulnerable? Im glad to see someone else going this direction, I think I may do a low mount next year. I have a V-mount so it has some pros/cons compared to your direction.
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Old 09-07-2012, 09:41 PM   #47
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Do you guys feel the turbo is vulnerable? Im glad to see someone else going this direction, I think I may do a low mount next year. I have a V-mount so it has some pros/cons compared to your direction.
Not at all. The lowest point is the dump tube that runs straight back from theader to the down-pipe (it ties in after the cat). It's 1.5" and here's a pic. I need to replace the belly pan, I totally missed on the trimming job



As far as the turbo, it's very well protected. It sits right above the subframe support.

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Old 09-07-2012, 11:04 PM   #48
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I'd say this is like the END all kit for the impreza if you want bolt on, every day daily driven reliability, and high performance with as little as sacrifice as possible..

Lot of people said +200whp @2500 rpm and +400 whp was not achievable with the motor and chassis.. Much respect Chris. It looks well made, it shows great performance, if its anything like the quality of work anyone who has your parts has seen, it's SUPER HIGH QUALITY.. I can't wait to ride in a car with this kit on it..

I'd wonder what some ported heads, cams, and a 35r would do..

If cooling is an issue for the super high hp guys couldn't you install a second smaller radiator up near the fog lights?.. Not entirely like this, but similar idea..

I tried to find something More like what I was referring to quick, but you could probably get the idea..
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Old 09-08-2012, 10:16 AM   #49
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My personal favorite thing about threads like these are all the usual suspects getting into their seats in the peanut gallery. "you need to put wire around the inlet because blahblahblah" "you should have put the turbo here" "you should have made it face this way" "thats not right, it needs to be this way because ferarri and porsche do.."

Seriously? ****. Nothing is more annoying than people who didnt/cant/wont telling the people who have/are how to do what they did.

Rant aside, nice job, kb. Having the turbo in the same zip code as the heads will do wonders for drivability/power curve.
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Old 09-08-2012, 10:51 AM   #50
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I'd say this is like the END all kit for the impreza if you want bolt on, every day daily driven reliability, and high performance with as little as sacrifice as possible..

Lot of people said +200whp @2500 rpm and +400 whp was not achievable with the motor and chassis.. Much respect Chris. It looks well made, it shows great performance, if its anything like the quality of work anyone who has your parts has seen, it's SUPER HIGH QUALITY.. I can't wait to ride in a car with this kit on it..

I'd wonder what some ported heads, cams, and a 35r would do..

If cooling is an issue for the super high hp guys couldn't you install a second smaller radiator up near the fog lights?.. Not entirely like this, but similar idea..

I tried to find something More like what I was referring to quick, but you could probably get the idea..
Thanks for the kind words. I share a similar curiosity, but will be keeping engine/heads as stock-ish as possible to show worse case gains, or what can be expected for someone that just wants to bolt it onto their stock engine. Too risky for me, but many go this route.

I looked at split radiators, but it kept coming back to additional fabrication work for the customer and increased costs. Could it be done that way, yes. Would it be more expensive, yes. Would thier be bigger gains to be had, maybe? Even with this kit as-is, a little fab work and a larger turbo could be used.

Long term, if we do eventually turn this into more of a track duty car, I'd like to explore a trunk radiator. Eliminating the rad from the engine bay has HUGE ramifications as far as heat reduction, airflow, and space!

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Originally Posted by KurtP View Post
My personal favorite thing about threads like these are all the usual suspects getting into their seats in the peanut gallery. "you need to put wire around the inlet because blahblahblah" "you should have put the turbo here" "you should have made it face this way" "thats not right, it needs to be this way because ferarri and porsche do.."

Seriously? ****. Nothing is more annoying than people who didnt/cant/wont telling the people who have/are how to do what they did.

Rant aside, nice job, kb. Having the turbo in the same zip code as the heads will do wonders for drivability/power curve.
I hear what you're saying. I think I have thicker skin than most so it doesn't really bother me like it does some. Being an engineer for so long it's just a fact of life that you will sit in meetings, with people that have never done a single engineering calulation, that want it faster, more robust, more versatile, maintenance free, that can be operated by an untrained chimpanzee, and of course costs less. In the end, if even one of the many criticisms brings about an idea that may improve the product, it's all for the better.

Thanks for the kind words!
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