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Old 06-22-2012, 06:44 AM   #626
ride5000
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i'm having trouble following you... is there an MBC involved, or no?

if so, there is absolutely no reason for there to be any overshoot at all. that's kinda the whole point.
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Old 06-22-2012, 04:21 PM   #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
i'm having trouble following you... is there an MBC involved, or no?

if so, there is absolutely no reason for there to be any overshoot at all. that's kinda the whole point.
Yes, there is an MBC. I had the MBC dialed back while I was adjusting my CL fueling issue and decided to try uncapping the 3rd port on the EBCS to see what happens.

Earlier in this thread, someone tried using the OEM 2 port solenoid to bleed off boost signal from his MBC to try to get quicker and lower-load spool and he was able to achieve target boost in 1st gear on his 22g that way. That was why I wanted to try removing the cap on my 3 port, to bleed off signal from the MBC in an attempt to get quicker spool and hold more boost up top.

I did get quicker spool but I have a quick overshoot of a couple PSI which the car didn't mind one bit. No knock, still lots of headroom with the injectors.

So I think there is room for more performance with the hybrid setup if there was a way to bleed pressure from the MBC during spool up and during taper. The combined backpressure from the exhaust and the small bleedthrough from the MBC up near target boost allows the wg flap to open enough to affect spool and top-end boost.

So with allowing pressure to bleed from the MBC keeps it from leaking any air the pressure down from the MBC high in the RPM range takes a little less net force out of the wastegate. Sealing the 3rd port sends all of the boost signal to the MBC which is great at controlling boost but you're still not MAXIMIZING spoolup and top-end taper.

As much as you might want it to, an MBC isn't 100% bianary in boost pressure signal delivery, they all will leak some around target boost. Not because the MBC isn't doing it's job, it's because in order for it to control boost it not only has to open, it has to open enough to send enough signal to the wastegate actuator that has it's own thresholds. An MBC is super efficient at staying closed until the pressure exceeds the spring force but in order for the wg actuator to dump enough exhaust to slow the turbo down, it has to get ENOUGH air from the MBC to do it. So, in theory the MBC as to be dialed below target to open enough to do it's job at peak which is too low when the turbo is at it's limits.

Anyway, there's my long-winded explanation of what I was trying. It could be worth re-opening the vent on the MBC and see if that gets the best of both worlds.
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Old 06-22-2012, 07:20 PM   #628
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Maybe someone can chime in, I just installed my EWG. The only thing I changed with the setup is move the vacuum line from the IWG and plugged it in to the side port of the ewg. Everything else is the same with my setup (Grimmspeed EBCS > Hallman MBC > Turbo/EWG) While tuning around 19 psi with my "tdo5 slowboyracing 20g" I get full boost around 5k rpm on my stock 2.0L. Any idea why my spool is so slow with the combination of the hybrid boost control + ewg? The fabricator who inspected/rebuilt my turbo said that the exhaust housing looked bigger than a td05 to him, but he wasn't for certain what size it was. Regardless of what exhaust housing or wheel side it has, it shouldn't be spooling near 5k rpm.

Does the length of the vacuum line affect spool with the hybrid boost control? I have the 3rd port capped off the ebcs as well as the port in the turbo inlet. My wgdc settings are 99% past 60% throttle IIRC.

Any ideas? I'm fairly certain the car doesn't have an intake/exhaust leak of any kind. I was going to try my best to re-mount/route the hallman and vacuum lines to be as short as they can going to the turbo/ewg. Then again, where is the best place to mount the hallman so it stays out of the way and can be easily accessible?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 06-22-2012, 10:50 PM   #629
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Pretty much of the mbc isn't controlling the boost properly then u either have the hybrid setup hooked up wrong or some other mechanical problem like a boost leak or exhaust leak.
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:51 AM   #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonDrums View Post
As much as you might want it to, an MBC isn't 100% bianary in boost pressure signal delivery, they all will leak some around target boost. Not because the MBC isn't doing it's job, it's because in order for it to control boost it not only has to open, it has to open enough to send enough signal to the wastegate actuator that has it's own thresholds. An MBC is super efficient at staying closed until the pressure exceeds the spring force but in order for the wg actuator to dump enough exhaust to slow the turbo down, it has to get ENOUGH air from the MBC to do it. So, in theory the MBC as to be dialed below target to open enough to do it's job at peak which is too low when the turbo is at it's limits.
who said it was a binary affair?

no matter what you do with the pneumatic portion of the boost control system, the fact remains that the spring in the wastegate isn't binary either: it sure as hell ain't CLOSED TIGHT at 12psi and WIDE OPEN at 12.1psi.

so if you enjoy introducing complexity and overshoot/ringing into the system while chasing 50rpms of boost threshold, go for it.
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Old 06-23-2012, 12:30 PM   #631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000

who said it was a binary affair?

no matter what you do with the pneumatic portion of the boost control system, the fact remains that the spring in the wastegate isn't binary either: it sure as hell ain't CLOSED TIGHT at 12psi and WIDE OPEN at 12.1psi.

so if you enjoy introducing complexity and overshoot/ringing into the system while chasing 50rpms of boost threshold, go for it.
Humm, it was just an experiment. Also when I said "you" I meant the general you, not ride500 you. And to update, I ditched the experiment for now but I might see what putting the oem restrictor pill in the line from the 3rd port might do.

Like you said, the wastegate flap isnt completely closed at even 12 psi. Adding a net force of boost signal to the actuator helps it move even more. All I was postulating was how to remove more boost signal from the actuator when below target.

Nothing to get upset about. Sorry if my wording was vexing to you.
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Old 07-02-2012, 03:44 PM   #632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Subian View Post
Maybe someone can chime in, I just installed my EWG. The only thing I changed with the setup is move the vacuum line from the IWG and plugged it in to the side port of the ewg. Everything else is the same with my setup (Grimmspeed EBCS > Hallman MBC > Turbo/EWG) While tuning around 19 psi with my "tdo5 slowboyracing 20g" I get full boost around 5k rpm on my stock 2.0L. Any idea why my spool is so slow with the combination of the hybrid boost control + ewg? The fabricator who inspected/rebuilt my turbo said that the exhaust housing looked bigger than a td05 to him, but he wasn't for certain what size it was. Regardless of what exhaust housing or wheel side it has, it shouldn't be spooling near 5k rpm.

Does the length of the vacuum line affect spool with the hybrid boost control? I have the 3rd port capped off the ebcs as well as the port in the turbo inlet. My wgdc settings are 99% past 60% throttle IIRC.

Any ideas? I'm fairly certain the car doesn't have an intake/exhaust leak of any kind. I was going to try my best to re-mount/route the hallman and vacuum lines to be as short as they can going to the turbo/ewg. Then again, where is the best place to mount the hallman so it stays out of the way and can be easily accessible?

Thanks in advance.
What did you figure out?
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Old 07-02-2012, 04:04 PM   #633
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I've seen some guys cap off the vent port on the ebc in the hybrid setup
Please do not do that.
Leave it vented to atmo or back into the inlet
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Old 07-05-2012, 07:28 PM   #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sackytar View Post
What did you figure out?
I'm going to run the Hallman by itself to see if spool increases.
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Old 07-06-2012, 01:03 PM   #635
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Originally Posted by Nuke209 View Post
I've seen some guys cap off the vent port on the ebc in the hybrid setup
Please do not do that.
Leave it vented to atmo or back into the inlet
I just tried this and the turbo barely spooled at 4k rpm, the inlet is capped also.
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Old 07-26-2012, 11:17 PM   #636
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Quick theory question. If the MBC is set to 19 and the ebc (3rd port going to intake) is set to 100% WGDC everything should work fine. But lets say the EBC drops down to 70% WGDC or so, this would cause less pressure in the line and then cause spikes or higher boost numbers right? It would be as if there is a leak in the line going to the MBC since the EBC would be bleeding it off. Just want to know how this sounds before I get started.
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Old 07-27-2012, 12:52 AM   #637
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobdude
Quick theory question. If the MBC is set to 19 and the ebc (3rd port going to intake) is set to 100% WGDC everything should work fine. But lets say the EBC drops down to 70% WGDC or so, this would cause less pressure in the line and then cause spikes or higher boost numbers right? It would be as if there is a leak in the line going to the MBC since the EBC would be bleeding it off. Just want to know how this sounds before I get started.
Quick answer is no.

Before I go into why, you need to cap off that 3rd port for this to all work properly. With the 3rd port uncapped, you're bleeding boost signal away from the MBC. At 100% duty cycle with the 3rd port uncapped, 100% of the air the ebcs can flow is flying out away from the manual boost controller which causes massive spikes. Also causes spikes at lower duty cycle. I spent a long time actually intentionally tuning with the 3rd port uncapped. It has it's advantages but produces spikes that can be dangerous unless you have turbo dynamics reaaaaally well dialed in.

Anyway at 100% duty cycle the ebcs with the 3rd port capped is re-directing 100% of the air to the manual boost controller and 0% to the wastegate actuator. At 70% throttle the ebcs is diverting 30% of the air to the wastegate actuator, the other 70% is going to the MBC.

Even as you have it setup now, lower wgdc means more air directed to the actuator....
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Old 07-27-2012, 07:43 AM   #638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonDrums View Post
Quick answer is no.

Before I go into why, you need to cap off that 3rd port for this to all work properly. With the 3rd port uncapped, you're bleeding boost signal away from the MBC. At 100% duty cycle with the 3rd port uncapped, 100% of the air the ebcs can flow is flying out away from the manual boost controller which causes massive spikes. Also causes spikes at lower duty cycle. I spent a long time actually intentionally tuning with the 3rd port uncapped. It has it's advantages but produces spikes that can be dangerous unless you have turbo dynamics reaaaaally well dialed in.

Anyway at 100% duty cycle the ebcs with the 3rd port capped is re-directing 100% of the air to the manual boost controller and 0% to the wastegate actuator. At 70% throttle the ebcs is diverting 30% of the air to the wastegate actuator, the other 70% is going to the MBC.

Even as you have it setup now, lower wgdc means more air directed to the actuator....
Thanks for clearing this up. going to try this in the morning and see how it turns out. Thanks for the awesome thread and info guys.
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Old 07-27-2012, 10:10 PM   #639
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Ok so here is how i hooked it up and i now have a solid 18-19 psi. A bit of spiking is still there but will not go over the 19 mark.

Code:
                      NC port capped
                     /
                 EBC
               /      \ NO port               \
compressor            WG                      Intake redirect capped
               \      /
                 MBC

Does this look right?

Last edited by scoobdude; 07-27-2012 at 10:24 PM.
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Old 07-28-2012, 07:00 AM   #640
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looks like how mine's been set up for 8 years.
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Old 08-26-2012, 12:24 PM   #641
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Hi folks, stranger to the thread here but very interested in this setup. Trying to wrap my brain around it since I'm no specialist by any stretch of the imagination.

Read the recent responses in the thread and I think I'm tracking on at least this: setup properly the EBC unit can effectively cut the boost hitting the MBC while still enjoying the benefits of MBC-driven spooling rates.

I'm exploring installing AEM's WBO2 Failsafe gauge with the stock ECU and believe I can get much better boost control while enabling stock ECU AFR failsafe control using the EBC. (Where the EBC immediately cuts boost when bad AFR ratios are detected).

I could also be talking completely out my ass right now so forgive me for that - trying to understand.
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Old 08-26-2012, 01:09 PM   #642
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if you have a wideband, and it's mounted in the car, then your eyeball/right foot is the failsafe.
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Old 08-26-2012, 01:37 PM   #643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ride5000 View Post
if you have a wideband, and it's mounted in the car, then your eyeball/right foot is the failsafe.
Nice to meet you too!

Since you started the thread originally I imagine you can also answer the question - is my observation of the relationship between the EBC/MBC correct?
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Old 09-10-2012, 01:07 PM   #644
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FYI this is the install we have been recommending. Great Success!

Mike
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Hybrid.jpg (25.5 KB, 868 views)
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Old 09-10-2012, 03:29 PM   #645
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06STiPilot View Post
Since you started the thread originally I imagine you can also answer the question - is my observation of the relationship between the EBC/MBC correct?
yes. either one is perfectly capable of controlling boost on its own; the wg actuator doesn't care which of the two provides the pressure signal. the fact that the mbc and the solenoid tee together on both ends is incidental.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:01 PM   #646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrimmSpeed View Post
FYI this is the install we have been recommending. Great Success!

Mike
I think this is funny, Grimmspeed says to cap the port on the EBCS, Nuke and a few others say to vent the port or run it back to the inlet. How much of a difference does this actually make? I tried to run this setup on my 20g, but recently downgraded to a 16g 8cm and am going to try the hybrid setup again.
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:29 PM   #647
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There really are a ton of different ways this can be routed. It's all up to your tuners preference but we recommend our install for a simple and effective set up.

Mike
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Old 10-18-2012, 08:13 PM   #648
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Capping the port can reduce the effectiveness of the ebcs.....but for this setup it's not a huge deal.

Routing back to intake is the best way IMO.

The only thing you really shouldn't do is vent it to atmosphere as its metered air....although it is a small amount.

It's the same thing as the top port on an ext wg. Some people hook it up, some people don't.
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:25 PM   #649
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
Capping the port can reduce the effectiveness of the ebcs.....but for this setup it's not a huge deal.

Routing back to intake is the best way IMO.

The only thing you really shouldn't do is vent it to atmosphere as its metered air....although it is a small amount.

It's the same thing as the top port on an ext wg. Some people hook it up, some people don't.
I'll route it back to the intake this time around to see if it makes a difference. Besides the ECU failsafes of the EBCS, is the hybrid setup just as good for spool as running a plain Hallman MBC?
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Old 10-19-2012, 12:48 PM   #650
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I've never tested on the same car.....but the mbc is controlling the boost, so it should be
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