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Old 09-11-2012, 11:30 AM   #26
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A gooseman thread. Feelin' old now.

Since I've never owned one, what is the appeal of a front drive diesel other than fuel economy?
"Sport wagon" is the appeal for me. They are a rarity in the US. Sure I'd rather have a new gas turbo awd wagon, but that's not an option.
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Old 09-11-2012, 09:14 PM   #27
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how many people on here bought the mazda wagon back when it was offered?
I bought a brand new one for my wife--Squall Blue, V6, manual transmission.

We added a sprinking of Mazdaspeed parts. She loved the car.

It was totalled in an accident. We really wanted a similar type of car to replace it, but nothing new on the market really moved us. She ended up getting a new G8 GT.
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:51 AM   #28
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how many people on here bought the mazda wagon back when it was offered?
It was low volume, but they still sold every single one of them, minus the drivers seating position, I was ready to trade my Impreza wagon in on one in 2006, then it snowed
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Old 09-12-2012, 04:13 PM   #29
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Funny this should come up, I am about to look at a V6 manual wagon this week. And I found a V6 manual hatch too. I am very tempted by the wagon. $7600 52,000 miles. Anything I should look for when I drive it?
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:23 PM   #30
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52k miles? Awesome.
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:40 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Einzelherz
A gooseman thread. Feelin' old now.

Since I've never owned one, what is the appeal of a front drive diesel other than fuel economy?
People have the misguided view that diesels are powerful and fun. They are pleasant to drive until the revs run out at 4k rpm, but they aren't "fun".
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Old 09-12-2012, 09:59 PM   #32
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People have the misguided view that diesels are powerful and fun. They are pleasant to drive until the revs run out at 4k rpm, but they aren't "fun".
I wouldn't say it's misguided, some people will find them fun. A lot of people don't find the FR-S/BRZ or Miata fun, but there are also a lot of people who do find them fun. It's completely subjective.
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Old 09-12-2012, 10:49 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by Einzelherz View Post
A gooseman thread. Feelin' old now.

Since I've never owned one, what is the appeal of a front drive diesel other than fuel economy?
The primary appeal is fuel economy, but driveability is a big plus too. They match the way the vast majority of people drive much better than gasoline engines. Quentin is right, but most people only rarely crack 4,000 rpm.

Look at the gearing of most gasoline cars today. A 4cyl Camry turns like 2,000 rpm at 75 MPH in sixth. The ~240+ ft-lb available from a diesel at that RPM is really nice in terms of avoiding downshifts while climbing hills. And the fuel economy is better to boot, yielding easy 500+ mile cruising ranges. Downside is the purchase cost and complexity (repair cost) of diesel engines.

If the US Government would abandon the stupid 2.5 MPH bumpers and US consumers would get over their fear of towing with anything smaller than an F150, you'd see the advantage of passenger car diesels in terms of towing capability as well. The 140hp Golf diesel is rated to tow over 3,000 lb in Europe.

For enthusiasts who enjoy winding their cars out gasoline engines are better for sure, but as always, we're in the minority.

<--- Owned a 2000 Jetta Tdi, which my mom still has.
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Old 09-12-2012, 11:03 PM   #34
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I think the Mazda diesel revs to 5500 RPM or so.
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Old 09-13-2012, 08:52 AM   #35
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The revs don't bother me, much. I commute 94 miles a day so I'm on cruise most of the time. I don't do much passing though, but it is hilly. I understand diesel trucks for towing applications and the slight mpg boost, but cars have confused me as gas engines are becoming more and more efficient.
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Old 09-13-2012, 09:10 AM   #36
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People have the misguided view that diesels are powerful and fun. They are pleasant to drive until the revs run out at 4k rpm, but they aren't "fun".
I went from a 350Z to my Jetta Sportwagen TDI. Driving my VW is quite pleasant, yes. For all practical purposes it feels like it has a big V6. But the fact that the engine wheezes out and dies after 4000 RPM doesn't hurt the fun factor - that definitely exists. I look forward to getting into my JSW just as much as I ever looked forward to getting into my Z. The butter-smooth gearbox and excellent Golf chassis help there. I just wouldn't take it to a track day.

And I definitely drive like more of an a**hole in the Jetta than I did in the Z. Something to do with the turbo...
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Old 09-13-2012, 09:16 AM   #37
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I think the Mazda diesel revs to 5500 RPM or so.
Nobody will ever bother trying to find out. As I type this, my foot is to the floor in my Jetta and I'm waiting to hit redline in 1st gear, to see if it really is 5000 I'm kidding (sadly necessary to point out on forums.) And I can't actually remember if my redline is 5000 or 5500, I never look.
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Old 09-13-2012, 09:33 AM   #38
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I went from a 350Z to my Jetta Sportwagen TDI. Driving my VW is quite pleasant, yes. For all practical purposes it feels like it has a big V6. But the fact that the engine wheezes out and dies after 4000 RPM doesn't hurt the fun factor - that definitely exists. I look forward to getting into my JSW just as much as I ever looked forward to getting into my Z. The butter-smooth gearbox and excellent Golf chassis help there. I just wouldn't take it to a track day.

And I definitely drive like more of an a**hole in the Jetta than I did in the Z. Something to do with the turbo...
I had a MKV GTI and that 2.0T was fantastically fun while returning over 32mpg real world over the 58k I had it. I just couldn't fathom giving up that fun for the relatively meager fuel savings.
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Old 09-13-2012, 09:50 AM   #39
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They are pleasant to drive until the revs run out at 4k rpm, but they aren't "fun".

Who cares what the rev limit is? It doesn't matter. The revs your engine is turning mean absolutely nothing.

What difference does the rev limit make when it's running through a gearbox that changes everything anyway? 170hp is 170hp, regardless of where it makes the power. The gearbox takes care of that.

What makes a car fun is a wide powerband as felt at the wheels. New diesels can provide that.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:10 AM   #40
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I had a MKV GTI and that 2.0T was fantastically fun while returning over 32mpg real world over the 58k I had it. I just couldn't fathom giving up that fun for the relatively meager fuel savings.
32 is really good for the 2.0T. I've had a handful of fill-ups under 40 mpg in 41,000 miles. I usually get 42-43, and on long highway trips I get 50+

My fuel savings have easily paid the whole diesel thing off - literally and in terms of my satisfaction with the car. I would never consider going gas with this car.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:41 AM   #41
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Who cares what the rev limit is? It doesn't matter. The revs your engine is turning mean absolutely nothing.

What difference does the rev limit make when it's running through a gearbox that changes everything anyway? 170hp is 170hp, regardless of where it makes the power. The gearbox takes care of that.

What makes a car fun is a wide powerband as felt at the wheels. New diesels can provide that.
I agree with your sentiment, but the way you state it could cut both ways. Diesels have a good power band from 1,500-4,000 rpm and high winding gasoline engines have good power from 5,000-7,500 rpm (think Honda, BRZ). In theory it shouldn't matter, but in the real world it matters a great deal.

Most people care where the power band is for several reasons. One being you have to start from a stop at zero wheel rpm, which means getting going with a high winding engine is always a bit harder than with a low end torque monster. My old ALH Tdi was a classic example. It had a whopping 90hp, but you didn't even need to touch the fuel pedal to get going, just let the clutch out slowly and the car would go. No bucking, no drama. Try that in a Civic.

Also, most drivers try to avoid high RPM because it sounds "bad". It's stupid, but true. I've tried unsuccessfully for years to get my parents and wife to be willing to wind a car out when necessary. My mom's previous car (before I sold her my Tdi) was a Ford Contour SE with the 2.5L V6 (5sp). One of the sweetest revving engines you can find in a regular production car. No dice, she almost never revved it high enough for the secondary throttles to open. It didn't matter that the Tdi has about half the power that her old Contour did. She never revved the Contour high enough to get more than half the power it made. The Tdi is perfect for her. Too bad the new ones are a steaming pile of failure.

My parents bought an Outback 3.6R for the same reasons. They never actually use more than 170hp, but the 3.6R sounds a lot better putting out 170hp than the 2.5i does. If the boxer diesel were available it would be perfect for them.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:54 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by sniper1rfa

Who cares what the rev limit is? It doesn't matter. The revs your engine is turning mean absolutely nothing.

What difference does the rev limit make when it's running through a gearbox that changes everything anyway? 170hp is 170hp, regardless of where it makes the power. The gearbox takes care of that.

What makes a car fun is a wide powerband as felt at the wheels. New diesels can provide that.
Exactly, 170hp is 170hp. More importantly, the TDI makes 140hp. That is why the meager fuel savings aren't worth the ~70hp trade off versus the 2.0T. For daily driving, the TDI is a pleasant car to drive. It just isn't what I'd consider fun. basically, my original comment was based on the meme that the perfect car is a diesel, RWD (or AWD), 6MT, sport wagon. The diesel saps away a lot of the fun. The new 328i with the turbo 4 sounds fantastic, though.

Before the stones start getting thrown my way for the Prius, it was purchased for practicality and reliability (which my GTI taught me that VW was less than capable). It does great in stop and go driving, runs the AC electrically (important for anyone with a new baby... spent hours in parking lots while the wife runs errands), and it is dead nuts reliable. It is a fantastic mommy mobile.

Last edited by quentinberg007; 09-13-2012 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 09-13-2012, 10:59 AM   #43
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The Tdi is perfect for her. Too bad the new ones are a steaming pile of failure.
This made me genuinely lol. But, why do you say they're no good? Is it the fuel economy, or the self-hydrolocking design? heh

I'm bothered by how low my MPGs look compared to the old TDI's. But I think VW figured 'muricans want moar power, give them that and 40 mpg sounds CRAZY good. So people here actually buy the new TDI's.

Also, emissions strictness is a super handicap for US diesels now more than then. It is in fact the source of my hydrolocking woes.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:09 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by quentinberg007 View Post
Exactly, 170hp is 170hp. More importantly, the TDI makes 140hp. That is why the meager fuel savings aren't worth the ~70hp trade off versus the 2.0T.

I thought we were talking about the article in the OP:

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The 2.2-liter I-4 develops 173 horsepower and 310 pound-feet of torque
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:10 AM   #45
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I thought we were talking about the article in the OP:
Didn't read. :LOL: I figure a lot like Vw's higher power diesels, they would get neutered when they came stateside.
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Old 09-13-2012, 11:28 AM   #46
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If they neuter it, it's off my list. 170hp is a bare minimum for me. If they put a 2.0T in it, I'll pre-order it yesterday. But in all likelihood, we're not even getting the wagon to begin with, so this is all fantasy.
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Old 09-13-2012, 01:59 PM   #47
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This made me genuinely lol. But, why do you say they're no good? Is it the fuel economy, or the self-hydrolocking design? heh
It's a combination of the HPFP, intercooler icing/hydrolocking, and most importantly the way VW treats customers who experience these problems. If I were being complete in my statement I guess VW and their dealer network emit more steam than the car itself, though there are clearly some design issues.

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I'm bothered by how low my MPGs look compared to the old TDI's. But I think VW figured 'muricans want moar power, give them that and 40 mpg sounds CRAZY good. So people here actually buy the new TDI's.
I hear you. My mom averages 52 mpg in hers. I averaged 48 in "extra urban" driving when I had it. A couple of years ago my folks drove from their home in Park Rapids, MN to a reunion in Madison, Wisconsin and back to my place in the Twin Cities on a single tank! The new ones only beat gasoline compacts when doing long highway stints. I'll bet a Cruze Eco gets about exactly the same mileage as a Jetta Tdi sedan.

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Also, emissions strictness is a super handicap for US diesels now more than then. It is in fact the source of my hydrolocking woes.
This has been true in the past, especially as it relates to NOx requrements, but with the advent of the Euro 6 emmissions standards in 2014, the gap has narrowed substantially. I suspect that's why Mazda and others have been making renewed noises about bringing diesels to the US.

I sincerely hope you never experience the hydrolocking problem. The cars are great to drive, but the company that makes them will not be getting my business any time soon.
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Old 09-13-2012, 04:10 PM   #48
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Didn't read. :LOL: I figure a lot like Vw's higher power diesels, they would get neutered when they came stateside.
I'm on the fence with the power. For what my TDI is, I can say it has way more guts than I expect or need. I might have taken the 118hp 1.8L had they offered it - would have felt like a regular gas 2.X liter 160hp and got 50+ mpg fill-ups instead of 40. But... 118hp, geeze.

I do think the 140hp 2.0 was the right balance of impressing 'muricans with power and mileage, vs. say, BMW foolishly tossing a big monster 6 cyl diesel into the 3 series which got good mileage, cost a ton and nobody bought - torque be damned. Note their 4 cyl diesels on the way over now.

If Mazda can get me the same 40 mpg fill-ups with 170 hp, then that's bomb. Unfortunately it will only be in sedan form so it won't get a chance to happen.

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Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post
It's a combination of the HPFP, intercooler icing/hydrolocking, and most importantly the way VW treats customers who experience these problems. If I were being complete in my statement I guess VW and their dealer network emit more steam than the car itself, though there are clearly some design issues.
Ah yes, the customer service. And HPFP.

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I'll bet a Cruze Eco gets about exactly the same mileage as a Jetta Tdi sedan.
Yes, but the hypermiler little gas cars are dogs, no power OR torque.

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I sincerely hope you never experience the hydrolocking problem. The cars are great to drive, but the company that makes them will not be getting my business any time soon.
I got hydrolocked like a boss, twice. And I had a dozen stumble start/stalls. So I got it bad. No HPFP, but yea. I was feeling a little mixed about the dealership but I'm solidly saying F 'em now. They lollygagged the first 2 times I brought the car in for the iced intercooler problem, and it wasn't until I found out about the issue myself via forums etc. that they actually took action the third time I brought it in (finally on a flat-bed.) They found moisture and put a fix kit on order for me. Various things happened and it took 6 months to get the kit installed but overall left me feeling only very slight disgust.

Then I came for some non-free 40,000 mile service stuff, including tire rotation. I get the car back, no tires rotated. I call it out, service advisor calls the garage, tech says "we rotated left to right." WTF. They refund me, I go home and rotate myself, there was obviously no rotation at all (who on earth would have done left to right anyhow??? Maybe at the track???) I promptly checked everything else they were supposed to do, luckily it was the only work they omitted. So my VW dealership experience has fallen in line with everyone else now. Bad.

Sadly, if I buy either a Subaru, BMW (two most likely candidates for next car) or obviously VW (new golf in wagon form with non-time-bomb TDI engine is tempting) I will be dealing with precisely the same dealership unless I feel like driving 2 hours anytime I need a dealer to see my car.
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Old 09-13-2012, 05:57 PM   #49
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Yes, but the hypermiler little gas cars are dogs, no power OR torque.
Actually, the Cruze does pretty well. Being turbocharged, the midrange torque is pretty god, and boost is available as low as ~1,700 RPM. The Focus is pretty good too, it's 160hp, but that's at redline. The key is the VVT which gives it good midrange torque. Neither is in a diesel's league for torque, but both are very driveable. Not like lugging an old VTEC Honda at 1,500 RPM. Even the Civic is pretty good these days, variable runner intake manifold helps it out.

<---- Other car is a 2011 Civic EX.

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I got hydrolocked like a boss, twice. And I had a dozen stumble start/stalls. So I got it bad. No HPFP, but yea. I was feeling a little mixed about the dealership but I'm solidly saying F 'em now.
{SNIP}
Sadly, if I buy either a Subaru, BMW (two most likely candidates for next car) or obviously VW (new golf in wagon form with non-time-bomb TDI engine is tempting) I will be dealing with precisely the same dealership unless I feel like driving 2 hours anytime I need a dealer to see my car.
Ouch! It's exactly horror stories like yours that keep me from buying a Tdi or recommending one to my friends. I mean, really, who screws up a tire rotation? Wait, lots of crummy mechanics do...
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Old 09-14-2012, 02:05 PM   #50
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Funny this should come up, I am about to look at a V6 manual wagon this week. And I found a V6 manual hatch too. I am very tempted by the wagon. $7600 52,000 miles. Anything I should look for when I drive it?
My daily driver is a 2006 Mazda6 V6 hatch..5-speed. My 6 has been BULLETPROOF. A tick over 100k miles and my only out of pocket expense was to replace a hydraulic clutch line that burst at about 90k miles. Other than that, it's only needed brakes and tires. The 3 liter Ford/Mazda V6 isn't particularly powerful, but it's VERY SMOOTH. The factory shift linkage is pretty nice, but a TWM short shifter was the best $170 I spent on my car.

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