Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Saturday August 30, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > Proven Power Bragging

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-06-2012, 07:25 PM   #26
Paul
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 56203
Join Date: Feb 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: south nj
Vehicle:
00 RSTI Coupe
Twin Scroll 2.5XTR EJ207

Default

squids: Can you post a mod list please
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Paul is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 07:29 PM   #27
Concillian
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4414
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Dublin, CA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Midnight Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
*sigh*

It's not a 2 liter engine.
In that case it's "just another 20G" size turbo.
Concillian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 08:49 PM   #28
Squidz
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 142608
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Cute fuzzy cuddly kitten hell.
Vehicle:
2003 Sonic Yellow
Marginally well behaved.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
In that case it's "just another 20G" size turbo.
I havn't seen a 20g that could make the kind of power this thing can. Also, most 20g's that spool like this are either on AVCS or 7cm. Got any good examples?

Trying to get the build thread together...here's the clif notes...

Mod list:
EJ25 forged pistons/rods (9.2:1 compression)
USDM EJ20 heads/ CNC combustion chambers/Supertech springs/STi cams
Brand new 8cm FP HTA71 turbocharger (first one ever built...car was a test mule)
Internal WG
84mm FP Inlet
ETS Top-mount intercooler
IDE 1000 cc
DW 300 LPH fuel pump
GT Spec UEL Header
Cobb Tuned
Squidz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 09:01 PM   #29
ppayer38
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 234407
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Smithfield, VA
Vehicle:
04 Self-tooned
STi

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
In that case it's "just another 20G" size turbo.
From what I understand the wheel isnt even a 20g size... really close but it is smaller than the 20g but bigger than the 18g
ppayer38 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 10:00 PM   #30
Concillian
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4414
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Dublin, CA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Midnight Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
I havn't seen a 20g that could make the kind of power this thing can. Also, most 20g's that spool like this are either on AVCS or 7cm.
... but not high compression pistons...

There are obviously no direct comparisons, as how many hybrids are built and pushed on E85? Most are just looking at a cheap way to get back on the road after a spun bearing and many don't even get the chambers enlarged as you did. How much AVCS accounts for is difficult to judge, but the turbo performs like many similarly sized turbos.

It's not a bad thing, it is what it is.
Concillian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2012, 10:02 PM   #31
Concillian
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4414
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Dublin, CA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Midnight Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppayer38 View Post
From what I understand the wheel isnt even a 20g size... really close but it is smaller than the 20g but bigger than the 18g
I meant size more in the figurative sense of spool vs. peak power. Who cares about the physical dimensions, what matters in how it performs.
Concillian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2012, 11:12 AM   #32
WhatTurboLag?
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 243992
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Morton Grove, Illinois
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
WRB

Default

Anyone else?
WhatTurboLag? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2012, 11:30 PM   #33
elbertmurphy
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 268256
Join Date: Dec 2010
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Clarksville tn
Vehicle:
2005 STI
Silver

Default

i really want one of these with the bigger compressor and all the porting done. i'm running 1150cc on e85. i like the smaller turbos because the pull like sob at low rpms which equals fun.
elbertmurphy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2012, 01:19 AM   #34
WhatTurboLag?
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 243992
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Morton Grove, Illinois
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
WRB

Default

if it had a 10cm hotside and larger compressor cover it would already be at my door step
WhatTurboLag? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2012, 05:37 AM   #35
ppayer38
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 234407
Join Date: Jan 2010
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Smithfield, VA
Vehicle:
04 Self-tooned
STi

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatTurboLag?
if it had a 10cm hotside and larger compressor cover it would already be at my door step
Just live with the 8cm hotside... It won't hold the turbine back very much or find a 10cm hotside for the td05h turbine wheel that fits a subaru and throw it on there.

They offer the larger compressor cover with the turbo so it will already breathe better up top than the hta68 but doesn't loose anything down low
ppayer38 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-14-2012, 09:37 AM   #36
WhatTurboLag?
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 243992
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Morton Grove, Illinois
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
WRB

Default

Where do they offer it? And I don't want the 8cm hotside to lose steam up top.


And i still want to hear it!!!
WhatTurboLag? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2012, 05:03 PM   #37
Squidz
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 142608
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Cute fuzzy cuddly kitten hell.
Vehicle:
2003 Sonic Yellow
Marginally well behaved.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatTurboLag? View Post
Where do they offer it? And I don't want the 8cm hotside to lose steam up top.


And i still want to hear it!!!
It doesn't loose any steam up top. Look at my dyno graph...the turbo holds boost all the way past 7K. This turbo could easily make 475-485WHP at 26-27 Psi if i had enough injector in the car.

Just because it's 8cm vs 10cm doesn't tell you everything you need to know about the turbo. This thing isn't even remotely done at this power level.

Spools like a 7cm 20g and makes more power than a 10cm 20g...that's a winning combination in my book.
Squidz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2012, 05:08 PM   #38
Squidz
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 142608
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Cute fuzzy cuddly kitten hell.
Vehicle:
2003 Sonic Yellow
Marginally well behaved.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
... but not high compression pistons...

There are obviously no direct comparisons, as how many hybrids are built and pushed on E85? Most are just looking at a cheap way to get back on the road after a spun bearing and many don't even get the chambers enlarged as you did. How much AVCS accounts for is difficult to judge, but the turbo performs like many similarly sized turbos.

It's not a bad thing, it is what it is.
You are right, there are no direct comparisons...which is why your 'just another 20g sized turbo' doesn't make sense. Not trying to start a fight...i just don't think it's a fair statement or comparison after only having seen a single dyno graph. As stated before...it spools like a 7cm 20g and makes more power than a 10cm 20g. So i guess you're right...it makes power like a 20g...all of them.

The compression bump does not come close to spooling this turbo the way AVCS would. I'm getting one of these in Nov. to put on my wifes 2011 Sti Limited. So we'll get a little more direct comparison then.
Squidz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2012, 06:41 PM   #39
ByeBye4g63t
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 290896
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Phoenix, Az
Vehicle:
2004 STi, FOR SALE
PSM

Default

A 20g isn't going to put down that type of power on a 'stang dyno at 22psi, sorry. A 20g xtr on high boost might be able to (xlueben, not sure what dyno he used however). Even still, most 20g's on a mustang dyno are around 400-430whp.
ByeBye4g63t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2012, 03:05 PM   #40
WhatTurboLag?
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 243992
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Morton Grove, Illinois
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
WRB

Default

I still wana hear it!!! Lol
WhatTurboLag? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2012, 05:21 PM   #41
8thWonder
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 230366
Join Date: Nov 2009
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Nashville, TN
Vehicle:
2005 STi
it's motor buildin' time!

Default

Not sure what a turbo's sound has to do with anything...
8thWonder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-16-2012, 06:26 PM   #42
WhatTurboLag?
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 243992
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Morton Grove, Illinois
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
WRB

Default

nothing at all but the anti surge housing on a stock location turbo is new, so why the hell not?
WhatTurboLag? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 02:31 AM   #43
Concillian
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4414
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Dublin, CA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Midnight Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidz View Post
You are right, there are no direct comparisons...which is why your 'just another 20g sized turbo' doesn't make sense. Not trying to start a fight...i just don't think it's a fair statement or comparison after only having seen a single dyno graph. As stated before...it spools like a 7cm 20g and makes more power than a 10cm 20g. So i guess you're right...it makes power like a 20g...all of them.

The compression bump does not come close to spooling this turbo the way AVCS would. I'm getting one of these in Nov. to put on my wifes 2011 Sti Limited. So we'll get a little more direct comparison then.
high compression on gas that supports it will give more power at "low" boost. (low being anything below the threshold where the CR + octane allow ~MBT as actual timing without det.) So while high compression isn't going to spool like AVCS will, it is helping your peak HP numbers.

There are plenty of turbos that spool like yours or better and can make this power if they had the compression advantage your engine does, but you won't see dynos of them, since the vast majority of people who would build high compression for better off-boost or midrange torque would build with AVCS, since it's a bigger factor. Anyone who actually cares about boost threshold and off-boost torque will have AVCS.

As a result, your oddball engine has guaranteed there are no fair comparisons. Anyone who points to something that shows a better dyno, you're going to point at the spool and say look, AVCS. It's pointless showing any examples, there's just nothing that will come out of it.

Your dyno only really shows 2 things:
1) moderately higher compression + moderate boost on E85 is a good thing. You're gaining power since there is octane to spare on normal compression.
2) The HTA71 doesn't suck. This may seem like a small thing, but I think it's kinda big. You might expect it to suck from what appear to be mismatched wheels, but a turbo that sucks cannot have a decent balance of spool and power, but your chart shows a decent balance of spool and power.

I don't think you can draw the conclusion that the HTA71 is better or worse than similar sized turbos until you get it on an engine that doesn't have gimpy spool built-in, though.

Last edited by Concillian; 09-17-2012 at 02:38 AM.
Concillian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 03:52 PM   #44
Squidz
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 142608
Join Date: Mar 2007
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Cute fuzzy cuddly kitten hell.
Vehicle:
2003 Sonic Yellow
Marginally well behaved.

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
high compression on gas that supports it will give more power at "low" boost. (low being anything below the threshold where the CR + octane allow ~MBT as actual timing without det.) So while high compression isn't going to spool like AVCS will, it is helping your peak HP numbers.

There are plenty of turbos that spool like yours or better and can make this power if they had the compression advantage your engine does, but you won't see dynos of them, since the vast majority of people who would build high compression for better off-boost or midrange torque would build with AVCS, since it's a bigger factor. Anyone who actually cares about boost threshold and off-boost torque will have AVCS.

As a result, your oddball engine has guaranteed there are no fair comparisons. Anyone who points to something that shows a better dyno, you're going to point at the spool and say look, AVCS. It's pointless showing any examples, there's just nothing that will come out of it.

Your dyno only really shows 2 things:
1) moderately higher compression + moderate boost on E85 is a good thing. You're gaining power since there is octane to spare on normal compression.
2) The HTA71 doesn't suck. This may seem like a small thing, but I think it's kinda big. You might expect it to suck from what appear to be mismatched wheels, but a turbo that sucks cannot have a decent balance of spool and power, but your chart shows a decent balance of spool and power.

I don't think you can draw the conclusion that the HTA71 is better or worse than similar sized turbos until you get it on an engine that doesn't have gimpy spool built-in, though.
See...now we are speaking the same language. I do however disagree that there are a 'lot' of turbos that can spool at 3800-3900 and pull this kind of peak power and boost to to 7.5K the way this one does.

I agree with you on the above points...i wish i had been able to go with AVCS, as an autocross car, it would have been incredibly valuable.

This turbo is excellent, especially if you are running E85, it has exceeded my expectations in every possible way.

Last edited by Squidz; 09-17-2012 at 11:49 PM.
Squidz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2012, 08:13 PM   #45
WhatTurboLag?
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 243992
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Morton Grove, Illinois
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
WRB

Default

See I have a 2.5 and down the road I want to delete avcs for reliability and simplicity
WhatTurboLag? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 07:44 AM   #46
Dr. octagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 171127
Join Date: Feb 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Fredericksburg
Vehicle:
02 Rotated
Kinugawa

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatTurboLag? View Post
See I have a 2.5 and down the road I want to delete avcs for reliability and simplicity
...........
Dr. octagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 08:27 AM   #47
Nuke209
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 108089
Join Date: Feb 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minnesota
Vehicle:
2003 WRX
NF Performance

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatTurboLag? View Post
See I have a 2.5 and down the road I want to delete avcs for reliability and simplicity
lolwut?

Sometimes I think you all read too much on the internet and don't even understand what you're saying....
Nuke209 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 10:45 AM   #48
WhatTurboLag?
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 243992
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Morton Grove, Illinois
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
WRB

Default

built motor with cams and deleted avcs = less likely to drop a valve or **** up anything valve related. its just one less moving part.... it makes perfect sense. in a road racing application its not really necessary anyway.
WhatTurboLag? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 11:41 AM   #49
Dr. octagon
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 171127
Join Date: Feb 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Fredericksburg
Vehicle:
02 Rotated
Kinugawa

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatTurboLag? View Post
built motor with cams and deleted avcs = less likely to drop a valve or **** up anything valve related. its just one less moving part.... it makes perfect sense. in a road racing application its not really necessary anyway.
1. How does avacs contribute to dropping valves or ****ing up anything valve related?

2. What is it that non avacs "big" cams do that avacs "big" cams wont?

3. Why are you/would you go to the usdm ej205 area of no avacs, for 99.99% of us the lack of avacs and displacement is the problem.
Dr. octagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2012, 12:37 PM   #50
Concillian
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4414
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Dublin, CA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Midnight Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatTurboLag? View Post
in a road racing application its not really necessary anyway.
I think in a drag racing scenario it's not really necessary, but road racing? I hang out with autocrossing Evo guys a lot and when they talk about Evo 8 vs. 9 (Evo 8 = no MIVEC / Evo 9 = MIVEC) they talk about smoothness of throttle on corner exit and better able to control the car because the turbo comes on so much smoother with MIVEC. They all drive each other's cars to see how different mods affect their driving performance and they all have the same tuner (me).

I admit that's autocross, but I'd think smoothness of throttle would be a pretty big benefit to control in a corner. Big turbo + no AVCS = big torque surge on spool, and you'd generally want a smoother torque increase during spool.

Just because you're above the boost threshold doesn't mean you don't notice the turbo spooling either. How quickly and how smoothly the boost / torque comes back is important. It's a little mind blowing that anyone would actually want to delete AVCS unless it was a trailered drag car.

Last edited by Concillian; 09-18-2012 at 03:31 PM.
Concillian is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.