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Old 09-14-2012, 11:26 PM   #1
OC_Nooby
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Default Can CL to OL Delay cause me to run lean in transition to boost?

Can CL to OL Delay Cause Me To Run Lean During Boost For 1 to 2 Secs?

That's the million dollar question. Its like no matter what I do in the "Primary Open Loop Fuelling" map I'm running lean for a second or two in WOT (transition from cruising to WOT in a low gear).

Isn't it true if your MAF scaling is good, Fuel scaling is good then the ECU uses the "Primary Open Loop Fueling" map to target your A/F in open loop? Can it be that there is such a delay that I run lean before the ECU says everything is good then transitions to WOT?

If that's the case, what tables do I have to zero out? I've been reading around and its flying over my brain and making me go cross eyed.
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Last edited by OC_Nooby; 09-14-2012 at 11:49 PM.
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:54 AM   #2
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Yes, it has been known to be a problem on 04+ wrxs for years now.

Zero out the entire first table in the CL/OL delay folder, it will turn of all the delays and fueling will follow your primary OL table
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Old 09-15-2012, 09:15 AM   #3
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Depending on your mods it could be tip in enrichment as well.
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Old 09-15-2012, 11:16 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeskywrx View Post
Yes, it has been known to be a problem on 04+ wrxs for years now.

Zero out the entire first table in the CL/OL delay folder, it will turn of all the delays and fueling will follow your primary OL table
Perfect!

Quote:
Originally Posted by quazimoto View Post
Depending on your mods it could be tip in enrichment as well.
Noted, Thank You!
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Old 09-15-2012, 04:03 PM   #5
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Me and many others leave some delay in the CL/OL transition. It helps fuel economy slightly, A/F learning, and overall light throttle driveability (if you have them set correctly)
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Old 09-15-2012, 05:20 PM   #6
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I was wondering bout this subject also!
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Old 09-15-2012, 09:27 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlazeRex View Post
Me and many others leave some delay in the CL/OL transition. It helps fuel economy slightly, A/F learning, and overall light throttle driveability (if you have them set correctly)

same... I cut the value down by 75% and have had very good luck with it.
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Old 09-15-2012, 09:41 PM   #8
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I set the values to 0 and am happy. I get proper A/F while going partial throttle/boost now! Before it would just be lean for to long before it switched to the Open Loop Map.

I do go a tad lean if i'm ever so slightly on the throttle (10% tps) but I've made adjustments to the tip in enrichment (added 20%), so I'll see how it helps out!

Regardless, zeroing out the delays gave me the control I needed in the Primary Open Loop Fuelling map.
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Old 09-16-2012, 04:52 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quazimoto View Post
Depending on your mods it could be tip in enrichment as well.
Not likely... tip-in only lasts for a fraction of a second.
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Old 09-17-2012, 12:43 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
Not likely... tip-in only lasts for a fraction of a second.
20% tip in enrichment didn't help. It weird as I give 10 throttle the car will go from 14.7 to low 14's (which I want) then will climb back up to 15.5 stumble slightly then go back and its fine. Its not very constant. Sometimes it happens other times nothing.
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Old 09-17-2012, 08:41 AM   #11
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Maf leak?
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Old 09-17-2012, 12:54 PM   #12
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Maf leak?
I did find a a header leak before the o2. So I'll have to fix that. Probably causing me the problem.
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Old 09-17-2012, 01:03 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC_Nooby View Post
Can CL to OL Delay Cause Me To Run Lean During Boost For 1 to 2 Secs?
Yes, in fact that's actually what it's there for. The entire purpose of the CL/OL delay is to keep the fueling at stoich for a few seconds even if the primary OL fueling table says it should be lower.
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC_Nooby View Post
20% tip in enrichment didn't help. It weird as I give 10 throttle the car will go from 14.7 to low 14's (which I want) then will climb back up to 15.5 stumble slightly then go back and its fine. Its not very constant. Sometimes it happens other times nothing.
Fair point.

There's also a set of tables for the CL target AFR. In my OEM tune it didn't enrich as much as I'd like as load increased, so that could probably also use some tweaking. Look for "CL Fueling Target Compensation (Load)."
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Old 09-17-2012, 02:59 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OC_Nooby View Post
20% tip in enrichment didn't help. It weird as I give 10 throttle the car will go from 14.7 to low 14's (which I want) then will climb back up to 15.5 stumble slightly then go back and its fine. Its not very constant. Sometimes it happens other times nothing.
Tip in takes time and practice to get right. But once you do, it drives much smoother with throttle changes.
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Old 09-18-2012, 09:07 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlazeRex View Post
Tip in takes time and practice to get right. But once you do, it drives much smoother with throttle changes.
The car feels good with CL to OL delays removed. So if what you say regarding tip in enrichment is true then I'm stoked. Just have to fix my damn header leak. I think its giving me issues.

Baby Steps I Suppose
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Old 09-18-2012, 09:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlazeRex View Post
Tip in takes time and practice to get right. But once you do, it drives much smoother with throttle changes.
Agreed. Often the tip-in effect is too fast to even capture in a log, it's really something you need to work on qualitatively with a high frequency permanent-install wideband and gauge. It can definitely be a PITA to tune...but it can make a big difference when it's not right.
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Old 09-26-2012, 06:05 PM   #18
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OK, so I fixed the header leak and currently trying to make sense of this lean spike:


RPM MAP LC-1 TPS %
2224 -0.15 14.83 32.16
2251 0.17 14.83 34.51
2221 0.35 16.17 35.69
2221 0.46 16.17 36.08
2240 0.54 15.96 36.47
2244 0.62 15.96 37.25
2244 0.66 15.32 37.25
2257 0.7 15.32 37.25
2240 0.75 15.05 37.65
2240 0.81 15.05 37.65
2254 0.85 14.8 38.04


So far I've enriched the tip in A LOT from 25%-35% TPS (testing it out in a sec)

[Selection1D]
25.3 27.1 29.4 34.8
[Selection1D]
7.78 7.97 8.06 8.16

If that fails I'll start lowering the values between 2k-2.4k in the CL Fuelling Target Compensation (Load) map.

I have no clue where else to look...
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Old 09-26-2012, 07:27 PM   #19
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That failed, I got it to not spike as much but yah. Its better for sure but not 100% there. I think in time the ECU will learn (which I don't want). Still need some suggestions
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Old 09-26-2012, 07:59 PM   #20
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What's your setup? Mods and such?
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Old 09-26-2012, 08:32 PM   #21
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2.5l STI, stock compression, built.
FIC 1100cc injectors
ATP GT3076R running 22psi
One step colder NGK iridium plugs
STI TMIC

My throttle plate is sticky, something to note. Doubt that will fix anything but I need to fix that!
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:08 PM   #22
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Well I was wondering if you we're running a fmic but since that isn't the case nevermind.

The CL compensation table seems like a good place to look.
I'd be interested to see a log with the CL to OL status. Sorry if you already touched upon that.

Last edited by mavstang73; 09-27-2012 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:13 PM   #23
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This is killing me! Everything I do causes no change!
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Old 09-27-2012, 02:50 PM   #24
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OK! so I unplugged my front o2 sensor and guess what. First thing it transitioned properly and the A/F didn't spike up with partial throttle.

The only thing was that its lean to start of with (16-17 A/F). The main test was when I went partial throttle it didn't spike up and the A/F transition lowered. Heck it felt just as smooth running higher 16-17 A/F as it was running 14.4-15 A/F with the o2 in.

Also, my car idled nicely. Usually at first start it goes a little all over the place but perfect once warmed up.

I hope to god this is my issue.
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Old 09-27-2012, 03:00 PM   #25
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You might try tuning the car in straight open loop (what you're running now). When you're satisfied that's it's hitting target and the tip-in is working correctly, you can re-enable closed loop. I have found that trying to tune tip-in with an active closed loop fueling system is very difficult.

You should also not run the car with the O2 sensor installed but not plugged in. Driving with an unpowered O2 can damage the sensor, it needs to be heated. You can alter the tune slightly to force the car into permanent open loop while still leaving the O2 installed and plugged in (and you can log from it as well). This is what I'd recommend.
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